Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Michael Dorosh]

The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade?

To invoke the blessing of God Almighty.  You really don't know what a prayer is?

I think that the remove headress command really has nothing to do with it. We have separated the church and the state, why not in the military?

Because the military isn't a social program.... Inch said it much better than I could, really.

 

[buzgo]

If Canadian society is secular, and the CF is representative of Canadian society (well its supposed to be, instead of the good old white boys club that the reg force seems to be) then shouldn't the CF be a secular organisation?

(please don't slam me too hard!) 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

If Canadian society is secular, and the CF is representative of Canadian society (well its supposed to be, instead of the good old white boys club that the reg force seems to be) then shouldn't the CF be a secular organisation?

(please don't slam me too hard!) 

Since when is Canadian society secular?  And how are you judging it to be so?

 

[buzgo]

There is no prayer in public schools, the church and the state are seperate, there is no state religion, no religous council advising the gov't...

Legalized abortion, same-sex marriage, decriminalized pot...

 

[Blackhorse7]

How far do you need to take "rights" in the Military?  I had heard (and I may be wrong), that in Basic, troops were issued with time out cards that were to be used when they felt they were being pressured too much.  Now some guy has a problem taking his damn headress off?

What the hell is this country coming to?  I for one, am one the suck it up side.  This is the Military you joined.  If you don't like it, go find a job civvie side, that is more accomodating to you're prissy, self fufilling needs.

SUCK - IT - UP!  And start being a damn soldier, Sir.  

 

[bossi]

... I think that the remove headress command really has nothing to do with it ...

So, in other words ... you're saying that on Remembrance Day it's okay to disrepect fallen comrades if you feel like it?  Or, if you don't particularly like some words in the national anthem, you don't have to stand at attention or salute the flag?  The inability of a commissioned officer to follow a simple command is a disgrace.

Having said that, I've seen Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Anglican, and other soldiers march willingly into the Regimental church - out of pride, and respect for fallen comrades.  In Afghanistan I saw soldiers from 24 nations stood side by side on Remembrance Day (and they weren't all the same religion).

It's all about mutual respect - this court ruling essentially condones rude, ill-mannered behaviour. If somebody doesn't want to go on a church parade, so be it - all they have to do is tell the CO, and they can wait on the sidelines instead.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

There is no prayer in public schools, the church and the state are seperate, there is no state religion, no religous council advising the gov't...

Legalized abortion, same-sex marriage, decriminalized pot...

Have you sung the national anthem in English lately?  ;D

Public schools still have Christmas, and we still have a lot of Catholic school boards, so you're being awfully selective...you said society, not government.

 

[McG]

If Canadian society is secular, and the CF is representative of Canadian society (well its supposed to be, instead of the good old white boys club that the reg force seems to be) then shouldn't the CF be a secular organisation?

The Padre Corps has definitely become more diversified, but this has seen some of its traditional symbols become more secular.  There is now at least one Muslim padre.  "Onward Christian Soldiers" has been replaced with "Ode to Joy" as their march.  The capbadge is now being changed to something not aligned to a specific religion.

 

[JBP]

In anycase, I am what people would label an "Athiest" also, I have no believe in any religion at all or any higher powers. I'll probably be in a "fox hole" one day, will it change the way I operate, no. I am who I am and I'll pull that trigger just as fast as the next guy!

If you really get specific, having to "respect" everyone else's religions could be taken in this example.

A person doesn't believe in pornography or want to view it but unfortunately it's everywhere at his friends house and they're all watching it, knowing full well he doesn't like it. They say, "Suck it up pal! It's nothing".... He can choose to stay and watch or remove himself from the situation.

Previously atheists had no way to "remove" themselves from the situation and were forced by direct order to remove thier hats. No they can choose to not remove it and that's that. Everyone is then happy. Why should someone else have to bow-down just to make everyone else happy because of a religious preference. I think the reason why the military has been so closely affiliated with religion is because people die in the military at war etc etc... And people are afraid to die and also afraid at the concept of death. Because I'm an athiest does this mean I don't fear death? BULLSH*T! I am afraid to die, I do not want to die. But am I afraid of the concept of death? No, it's a fact of life. It happens, it will happen, there is no way around it and that's that. Religion gives everyone a nice soft cushion with the idea of death. So when your bleeding to death, feeling cold, going numb and about to loose conciousness, it'll make it easier when the chaplain is blessing you before you die and you think, "Well, at least I'll go to heaven now!"....

:

Just an athiests view folks. Flame me and freak out all you want.

This reminds me once when I was having a conversation with a friend about how "Black culture" (ie> Hip hop, rap etc etc) is so "Cool" now to the teens and stuff. I said to her, "I'm not racist or anything but maybe I'm missing the point of why it's so cool to be an african american now days... Is it just a new fad? I would rather think it's "Cool" to be yourself and individual, not any colour". She responded with, "Well it's about time! It's been cool to be white since the sun shone! Give them thier time!"....

Interesting point. We've been honouring religion since then too, and maybe it's time for a change. Not everyone simply "Follows the leader" blindly anymore. You older army guys were brought up that way I suppose, with religion deeply ingrained in your education and everyday life. I was too, but I chose the other way. I didn't want to be a roman-catholic. I don't care about the church and neither do the other athiests! We don't want prayers, we don't need them.

Why should we have to put up with them?
???

So, in other words ... you're saying that on Remembrance Day it's okay to disrepect fallen comrades if you feel like it?  Or, if you don't particularly like some words in the national anthem, you don't have to stand at attention or salute the flag?  The inability of a commissioned officer to follow a simple command is a disgrace.

No, what he was saying is that it's okay by all our superior officers and the law now, that we don't have to take off our hat if we don't want to because that's not our way. It won't change anything else and I doubt many people will start not taking off thier hats. Just like how in Ontario it's legal for women to go topless in public. Ya don't see that happening now do you? It's the POINT of it all, the fact of the matter...

PS> I will "SUCK IT UP" and follow along with my mates in ceremony etc etc. Why? It doesn't bother me one bit. It doesn't effect me, others I suppose it does. I'm just trying to make a point. I'm not against any religion at all and neither is a true athiest, I'm just not involved in them or follow them.

 

[bossi]

... Previously atheists had no way to "remove" themselves from the situation and were forced by direct order to remove thier hats ...

What?  Maybe "once upon a time" - i.e. without the benefit of this court decision, there have been numerous instances where soldiers would voice their concern and then the chain of command listened.

But, ya know ... this is a momentous occasion in Canadian military history!  Unwittingly, a weapon more powerful than nuclear bombs has been discovered.  From now on, just prior to being beheaded/gutted/shot/killed, all we have to do is say "sorry old chap, my religion doesn't believe in dying like this" - and of course, the bad guys will have to respect that or else they'll have the Human Rights Commission to deal with ... Jeez - why didn't we think of this sooner?  Launch the Human Rights Commission to Afghanistan, Iraq, and all points East ... and let's make "Kumbaya" the march of the Canadian Army!

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

  IMHO the Canadian armed forces needs to convene a board to review all policies regarding the armed forces and start putting into place some basic rules that cannot and will not waiver.Canadian society is ever changing but I believe there are certain ways things are done in the CF that should never be challenged.It seems every aspect of the CF is being challenged these days and our military policies are bending to the social preassure.

  Yes we need to be flexible to change to seriouse issues but the fact remains, in this case maybee the officer in charge could have simply told the person in question that he will remove his headress because he was ordered to and not because everyone else might be doing it based on religiouse beliefs.After all if we lose our sense of discipline, we have relegated ourselves to an organized gang and not the proud CF that we are.

 

[JBP]

What?  Maybe "once upon a time" - i.e. without the benefit of this court decision, there have been numerous instances where soldiers would voice their concern and then the chain of command listened.

But, ya know ... this is a momentous occasion in Canadian military history!  Unwittingly, a weapon more powerful than nuclear bombs has been discovered.  From now on, just prior to being beheaded/gutted/shot/killed, all we have to do is say "sorry old chap, my religion doesn't believe in dying like this" - and of course, the bad guys will have to respect that or else they'll have the Human Rights Commission to deal with ... Jeez - why didn't we think of this sooner?  Launch the Human Rights Commission to Afghanistan, Iraq, and all points East ... and let's make "Kumbaya" the march of the Canadian Army!

LOL!!!  :blotto:

Bossi, I do enjoy your sense of humour. But that's not what I was getting at! You guys are blowing it all way outta proportion!!!!

My god! This little threat has sure taken off fast hasn't it?  :

Gee, I suppose we can always leave religion at the forefront to get people to fight amongst eachother! Great tool it is! It's been working for,... .ohh... Hrm.. Thousands of years!

;D

Anyway, I get what you mean Bossi, and I am glad to know that CO's listened from time to time. I can only hope my CO will be as nice. If not I'll have to suck up and ruck on!
:warstory:

IMHO the Canadian armed forces needs to convene a board to review all policies regarding the armed forces and start putting into place some basic rules that cannot and will not waiver.Canadian society is ever changing but I believe there are certain ways things are done in the CF that should never be challenged.It seems every aspect of the CF is being challenged these days and our military policies are bending to the social preassure.

  Yes we need to be flexible to change to seriouse issues but the fact remains, in this case maybee the officer in charge could have simply told the person in question that he will remove his headress because he was ordered to and not because everyone else might be doing it based on religiouse beliefs.After all if we lose our sense of discipline, we have relegated ourselves to an organized gang and not the proud CF that we are.

I agree 110%, couldn't have said it better. Good job.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It's only a matter of time before the act of issuing a legal order becomes unconstitutional in itself, at this rate.  Shelldrake, you are correct, though don't the QR & Os and CFAOs currently supercede things like the Criminal Code, etc. (ie killing an enemy soldier is an exemption from murder statutes).

Pte Joe, if you've never been in a life threatening position, you have no damn way of knowing whether or not you'll turn to religion just as a religious person has no way of knowing if his faith will remain unbroken under fire.  So give it a rest.

 

[McG]

The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade?

To invoke the blessing of God Almighty.

Are you prepaired for the day when the prayer may be from the Koran or the Torah?

I've seen Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Anglican, and other soldiers march willingly into the Regimental church - out of pride, and respect for fallen comrades.   In Afghanistan I saw soldiers from 24 nations stood side by side on Remembrance Day (and they weren't all the same religion).

Is that only because there was no venue for honouring our fallen in an other religion's ways (or a religion free way)?

I think two things have come from this court decision (one good, and one bad).  It is good that the CF will have to re-evaluate how it may impose religions into peoples lives (as I said above, are you ready for an Islamic Padre on Remembrance Day?).  It is bad that we may have set a precedent for civil disobedience as a means of changing CF policy.  However, I cannot know that the Capt(N) had the intent of changing policy so I cannot predict if he could have been successfully charged for that.

 

[McG]

It's only a matter of time before the act of issuing a legal order becomes unconstitutional in itself, at this rate. Shelldrake, you are correct, though don't the QR & Os and CFAOs currently supercede things like the Criminal Code, etc. (ie killing an enemy soldier is an exemption from murder statutes).

No!

The QR&O and CFAO are not leagal works.  The QR&O are directed for in the National Defence Act.  They are not legislation themsleves and they cannot overide legislation.

 

[JBP]

Pte Joe, if you've never been in a life threatening position, you have no damn way of knowing whether or not you'll turn to religion just as a religious person has no way of knowing if his faith will remain unbroken under fire.  So give it a rest.

Actually, yes, I have been in 1 life threatening incident where I and my friends had to be rescued by the fire dept at night in a steep ravine/gorge that we'd fallen into. None of us said any prayers and I simply thanked the fireman and myself for being able to climb enough to get to a rescuable point! The firemen were the heroes, not god. If that doesn't qualify as life-threatening then you tell that to the dead teenagers and hikers who died there and the firemen who have had to rescue people like me, sometimes not successfully...

Also, every negative incident that has happened during the course of my life has served to reinforce my athiest views. I have grown up through a horrible childhood and set of teen years. Many years of continous domestic violence, phsycological and emotional abuse. Am I a crybaby? No, I sucked it all up, moved on and learned from it and I'm 10X stronger than I would have been without those experiences.  Everything I've experienced has served to reinforce my beliefs, why, because I fixed it myself. No "God" led me the proper path out of those dangers and problems. Common sense, logic and a little help from friends prevailed. You have no idea what a person has been through so don't tell me to "give it a rest".

I was simply pointing out the fact that religion has caused wars throughout all of known history across the world. A valid point in the context of where the thread has gone! Which I may mention away from the original topic and I apologize.

I will not post on this thread anymore because when people talk about religion it almost always invariably ends up the same way. With people arguing, which was my point and that isn't my intent.

Joe
PS> Mr. Dorosh, go ahead and give me a damn verbal if you like, it'll only serve to show that you have no understanding of another person's viewpoint or no tolerance for anyone with a different opinion. Now I'll give it a rest as you mentioned and is now fair...  :-X

 

[Infanteer]

If the service is to be given by a Jewish or Muslim Padre, then so be it.  Though the message may be different, the intent is the same.

Personally, I think the guy is a wanker for the reason that he put his own selfish reasons over simply removing his hat.  I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous.  I stand at dinners when people want to say grace, remove my boots in a mosque (did it once), and swapped my tuna sandwhich with a roast beef one that the soldier next to me (a Hindu) got in his box-lunch.

That being said, religious people can be equally polite towards be and refrain from getting me out of bed to give me the latest edition of "The Watchtower"....

 

[McG]

I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous.

That about sums it up in the fewest possible words.

 

[CivU]

"I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous. "

I agree completely with this sentiment, as I hold no religious beliefs or affiliation.  What may be the issue is that, according to the article, the Officer in question informed his superiors of the parade (which I believe was going to be his first in a decade and therefore the issue would not have came up recently) that this would be problematic for him, as it contradicted his religious beliefs, or in this case, a lack thereof...

Perhaps if the issue had been addressed prior to the Officer having to make a personal stand by not removing his headdress, the instance would not have evoked such debate.  Though I think it lacks some degree of courtesey and example setting, as he was an experienced officer, taking a stand against practices you deem discriminatory and unacceptable is encouraged through CF SHARP training...where does this fit in?  You have to wonder, if he didn't take a stand, would this issue have merely fallen into the bureaucratic abysses...In doing so, this act has certainly paved the way for changes in regards to the amalgamation of church and military that continues to exist in an ever-changing Canadian Forces...

How would a Christian person feel if we did away with Roman Catholic and Anglican services as they discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. or if, as was already suggested, different forms of prayer, or reading from different scriptures, were instead implemented...you have to question if eliminating religious affiliations is not the easiest and least discriminatory step...

 

[Pugnacious]

Pte Joe, if you've never been in a life threatening position, you have no darn way of knowing whether or not you'll turn to religion just as a religious person has no way of knowing if his faith will remain unbroken under fire.   So give it a rest.

I would hope that if I was in a Foxhole under fire with Pte (R) Joe that I wouldn't look over to hear him rambling on about imaginary demons, devils, and Angels. What he said indicates to me is that he doesn't deliberatly hallucinate medieval peasant fantasys while under stress.  Which IMHO is a good thing.  As how I see it if there as a God we wouldn't be in a foxhole in the first place. ;D

Why not have a CAF hanger left open for Santa's sled, and equip light infrantry with Unicorn harness, and Bridle also. LOL! ;D

Choose your own myth.
Cheers!
P.