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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

Most followers of religion are twisted fanatics??? nbk, you‘re suggesting that a fair chunk of the Canadian population and probably a good percentage of CF personnel are twisted fanatics? That‘s just absurd. The twisted fanatics are by and far the small minority of religious groups. They just get the most press so, to the unperceptive eye, it might appear that they are a larger percentage of the whole than what they really are.
 
I have a feeling that i should
have kept my big,fat mouth shut about this.

About the only good thing to come out of
this,is that i have learned alot about
history (right or wrong)from all of you.

This started out as a hypothetical question by
Ghost778 & turned into a religous debate.

Lets agree that most leaders are just power
hungry fools & soldiers are the ones who
pay the bill, shall we.

We are trending into quicksand & sinking fast.

Just a suggestion on my part.
Regards.
 
Religion is no longer the striving force behind society, it is now merely a guideline for those that believe to follow.

I have said this many times with family and friends.

In the CF, religious freedoms, and the right to practice is a right that needs to be protected, just as mush as the right to vote.

Canada is made up of many nations in a nation. This notion is an important one for Canada, we are durieved from peoples for else where, but we are now ALL Canadian.

Should a person be allowed to practice his particular religious parctice, even though he does not see it to the letter? I say yes. That person has the right to. How many Catholics (for example) do their daily prayers? Do we condem them from celebrating their faith on sunday in the feild.

Whether a person lives and breathes his faith does not imply for the rest of us to cast judgement.

What do you really believe in, what higher being do you pray to? What makes you faithful?

Should these religious preferences be announced unit wide? No, I don‘t think so. How would you feel if were announced that you are Prostant/ Catholic/ Anglican/ or any other religion? How would you like that you can only eat veggies on this day, fish on that, or steak on that day. How would like if your personal belief and martial arrangement is annouced. It is no ones business, nor should it be.

If a person is required to observe certain arrangements so that he may celebrate his faith, that is his business and highers. If the person feels to tell his section, platoon, company, unit or organization, that should be at his discreetion.

Does the civilian world have these isues/ problems?


A few thoughts......

:cdn:
 
This is going nowhere, moderater want to shut this one down before it gets out of hand (if it hasn‘t already...)
 
come on now, as long as we‘re not openly insulting each other it‘s still a just a debate. I think we‘re still at least three posts away from name calling. :)
 
You have your faith. If you have chosen your faith to be an organised religion, then you should follow all of its rules.
Now, somewhat going back on what i just said,
as a christian (basically), i dont go to church every sunday, and i keep some of my own rules, and reject others, to tailor it to my beliefs. I dont expect to have time given to me every sunday for church. God is everywhere, if you believe in God. I pray anywhere, if you feel the need to pray, then pray. No need to go to a building, or see some old guy. For people who have dietary needs, i think that god will forgive you, if you eat something taht you need to eat in order for you not to starve. If have completly and utterly devoted yourself to your religion, and follow it to a T, you probably shouldnt be in the CF, for in the CF at some point, you are expected to kill, or help kill, other human beings. That is definatly a no no in almost all religions.
 
WW2 hand no religous aspect to it? Unless your Ernest Zundel, you must acknowledge the JEWISH holocaust by the ROMAN CATHOLIC Nazis?
Germans? Roman Catholic?

Ever heard of a guy named Martin Luther? circa: 1500‘s ?

Before you go spouting off about religion, it would help if you got your facts straigt to begin with.

The cold war wasn‘t exclusively fought over freedom of religion either. How about freedom of the press, speech, association, etc? How about communism vs. capitalism? opression vs. freedom?
If you focus only on religion for a cause, then you have to ignore everything else. As it‘s been said before, religion has been mainly used as a propaganda tool by governments and assorted wack-jobs.

I doubt that even the crusades was fought purely for religion either. Land played a key role. Weren‘t the christians trying to stop the expansion of the muslims?

Tyler
 
And you wonder how holy wars start?

I personaly don,t care if you worship God
or some carved wooden idol as long as it
does no harm to others & you do not force it
on me.

To each his/her own.
And we are about 2 more post shy of name
calling,so lets end this on a high note guys.

Just trying to keep the peace.
Regards.
 
Yes I have heard of Martin Luther, have you ever heard of the Holy Roman Empire? Just because Martin Luther led the Protestant reformation of the church in Germany in the early 1500s, does not mean the entire country was protestant. In fact looking at the CIA world factbook 2002, Germany is split 34% protestant and 34% Roman catholic.

My grandfather was a roman catholic living in Germany during the second world war (thats why I said Roman Catholic, as I believe this is what Hitler professed to be, as well as many other Nazis), sent to the eastern front (Minsk), to fight for god (in his his own words) against the "godless" Soviets. Luckily he made it through and got captured by the americans when he was re-deployed to Italy and brought to a pow camp in New Mexico. He told me that he was told by his Kommandant that they would win this war because they had god on their side. Once he was exposed to all the horrors which took place in the name of god after the end of that war, it caused him to renounce his religion and become an athiest.

Just for the record I am not flaming or name calling anyone, this just happens to be a topic that interests me.

Communist revolutions were just that--revolutions, not wars. I said no *wars* have been started by athiests.

The Reconquista (I may have spelled it wrong, I am German not Spanish) was basically a successful Christian ploy to drive all the Muslims (Called the Moors) out of the Iberian penninsula in southern Spain. Along with getting rid of all the Muslims, they also got rid of most of the skilled trades and crafts-persons. This area of Spain had a lot of trouble after this, because the christians were not as skilled as the Moors were. If the Moors and the christians were athiests, they would have had no issues with eachother, and everyone would be happy.

As for the Aztecs, there was a huge factor played by Christian missionaries in that genocide. Not to mention the Aztec‘s religion left them open for attack because they thought Cortez was their god, and they trusted him, when they should have been more cautious.

As for the possible over generalizations I made, it was not my intention to offend anyone, it just comes from personal experience. Besides from a few Muslims and Buddhists that I knew in high school, every religous person I have met has been a complete basket case. I can not think of one christian I have met who has not preached to me about how much I am going to burn in **** , and how he or she is going to pray for me, and how he hopes I "find jesus and save myself". I hate the elitist attitude that these people have. I found this webpage earlier today, and even though the guy is half joking, it sums up my feelings on religion much better then I could type out.
 
I can not think of one christian I have met who has not preached to me about how much I am going to burn in ****
Chances are, you have met many more christians but you don‘t know it because they didn‘t preach to you. I went to church growing up and while there certainly were some who went out of their way to preach to others, most would only talk about God or religion if you asked them about it.
 
Frankly, this story pisses me off - It's a shame that a commissioned officer seems to think that being rude is more important than being polite. 
When I visit a church, a synagogue, a mosque or a temple ... I do what's polite (even if it's not my religion).  Whatever happened to "when in Rome, do as the Romans"...?

Can't order sailor to doff hat at prayer, court rules

By ROBERT MATAS - Friday, December 10, 2004 - Page A13, The Globe and Mail

VANCOUVER -- There may be no atheists in foxholes, as a U.S. Army chaplain said in a famous Second World War field sermon.

But there are sailors in the Canadian military who are prepared to confront death without belief in God, and the Canadian Forces has been ordered to change its regulations to accommodate them.

In a precedent-setting decision forcing the military to reassess its procedures, the Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada also set aside the conviction of Lieutenant (N)Darryl Scott for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Lt. (N) Scott, who joined the military in 1978, had been court-martialled for refusing to take off his hat while the unit's chaplain recited a prayer during a military parade at Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt.

"Obedience to lawful orders is essential to maintaining necessary discipline in the military. Here, however, there was no clearly military purpose," the court ruled.

The order required Lt. (N) Scott to make a public gesture of approval for a religious ceremony in which he did not believe, the three-judge panel stated. "The order was not lawful, and [Lt. (N) Scott's] disobedience of it was justified."

The Canadian Forces allows those whose religious beliefs require head coverings to keep their head covered during prayers. However, the regulations make no provision for those who reject religion.

The event on Nov. 28, 2002, was the first time in more than a decade that Lt. (N) Scott, 51, had been required to participate in a parade.

Lt. (N) Scott anticipated having a problem when he would be required to remove his cap during prayer. He told his superior officer more than a month before the parade but was ordered to attend and remove his headgear when ordered.

"I thought it was not quite right," Lt. (N) Scott said in an interview. "It was around the time people were talking about the 20th anniversary of the Constitution and religious freedom."

Lt. (N) Scott, who is married and has two children, said he broke from religion in his early teens. The military court called him an atheist. "I'm more an agnostic, with atheist tendencies. I have not found any convincing proof," he said.

Lt. (N) Scott worked on ships deployed to Europe and Asia for more than a decade before specializing in computer work in the early 1990s. He recalled being deployed in harm's way during the Cold War.

But he does not agree with U.S. Army chaplain William Thomas Cummings, who said there were no atheists in foxholes.

"You are there as a unit. It has nothing to do with religion," Lt. he said. Sailors think about their close relationship with their shipmates, who they are willing to die for, not about religion, he said. "Religion is not relevant."

In light of the appeal court decision, the military is reassessing its manuals for drills and ceremonies, said Major Laurie Kannegiesser, a Canadian Forces media official in Ottawa. The military has not decided whether to appeal. The manuals will be changed to reflect the ruling if no appeal is launched, she said.
 
here we go... the slope just keeps getting steeper and slipperier every day.  I guess the basic concept of respect has been lost somewhere.  Almost glad that I'm retired now.  I wonder how this "gentleman" would feel if a soldier refused to salute him, because his personal belief is that soldiers don't need to salute sailors.  Rediculous prospect, I know, but it's only a matter of time......

Chimo,  Kat
 
What about respect for him and all of the other non-religous members of the CF? Isn't it somewhat insulting to assume that everyone is a Christian or follows some religous practice?

I've never agreed with prayer on a parade either, and I think its good that he had the balls to stand for his beliefs (or lack of). It may have been the wrong way to go about it, but at least he took a stand, and he DID tell his superiors that he had a problem with it...
 
Wow, a 51 year old Captain (Naval Lt).  What a shining career he must have had.  Guess he needed to get his name in the papers somehow.


 
signalsguy said:
What about respect for him and all of the other non-religous members of the CF? Isn't it somewhat insulting to assume that everyone is a Christian or follows some religous practice?

I've never agreed with prayer on a parade either, and I think its good that he had the balls to stand for his beliefs (or lack of). It may have been the wrong way to go about it, but at least he took a stand, and he DID tell his superiors that he had a problem with it...

How is keeping your hat on in any way a stand?  The hat was ordered off, it should have come off.  The act of removing a hat doesn't imply you have any kind of belief system; it is a drill movement just like present arms.

What next, conscientious objectors refusing to present arms because it is too aggressive looking?
 
The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade? I think that the remove headress command really has nothing to do with it. We have separated the church and the state, why not in the military?
 
I would be interested to find out why the court deemed the the order to be unlawful.  Wether you agree with it or not, is it an officers right to challenge military law through civil disobedience?
 
*shakes head*  Am I still in the bloody Military or what?  ???

Do what your told it's what has gotten me through 6 years in the service and stood me well, I believe this not obeying a lawful command provision was taken to far this time. That provision I believe was instituted so as to stop such orders and "No Quarter shall be given" or for a laughs sake "Do the whole Fing Village!" in case of the Navy machine gunning survivors or a sunken enemy vessel, this is silly I don;t believe in god myself but I still remove head dress when ordered for a prayer out of respect for others belief nothing unlawful about that command not in the slightest. You show me where taking off my head dress violates Canadian and international law, pure human rights crap is what this is!
 
signalsguy said:
The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade? I think that the remove headress command really has nothing to do with it. We have separated the church and the state, why not in the military?

It's tradition, the church has always been a part of the military, no better example than the existence of Padres. Religion also plays a big role in Royalty, since we're still part of the Commonwealth and the Queen's representative, the GG, is our Commander in Chief, religion stays part of the military.  I'm NRE as well, but I don't mind taking my hat off on parade for the benefit of those that do believe, nor am I going to make waves just for the sake of making waves. As my first platoon commander said, "we're here to defend democracy, not practice it." So I say suck it up buttercup and take your hat off like everyone else.
 
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