Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[Brad Sallows]

"And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."

If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.

 

[lenaitch]

As a resident, I'm in favour it.

Admittedly, I have had very few off-duty interactions with Metro Police. Possibly because I am white. More likely because I have always been very careful about my driving.

Possibly "professional courtesy" was a factor.

Perhaps "Community Engagement" would have a nicer ring to it than "carding". 

Ya, I don't know where the term 'carding' came from - whether it was informal TPS term or was coined outside of the organization.  My former Force never used the term that I am aware of.  More and more I find media and social media terms creeping into professional jargon (no doubt other professions are the same).  I was involved in a serious collision back in February and I overheard the cop calling for another 'bus', which is right out of TV shows involving New York.

 

[Remius]

"And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."

If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.

Sure.  But I saw a good comparison on TV.  Police might patrol and conduct drug busts in disadvantaged neighbourhoods because that’s where the crime is.  But they rarely bust university fraternities where illegal drug use might actually be higher.  Again, it’s only part of the problem.

 

[mariomike]

I was involved in a serious collision back in February and I overheard the cop calling for another 'bus', which is right out of TV shows involving New York.

I hope you recovered.

We called ambulances "cars". "Send a car" "Car Count" etc. Never a bus.

I was fortunate to get off the cars and onto the bus and truck division back in 1980. 
Got off the cars and never looked back.

 

[Xylric]

"And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."

If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.

Honestly, I am sure that 80% of society's problems - including poverty - would be substantially mitigated should the education system get fixed up. The real problem is the reason why racism exists in the first place - discrimination of individuals outside of one's group is never going to be fully eliminated.  If skin colour, religion, gender, sexuality, and such cease being the easiest point of division, we'll just see new ones crop up. Intelligence is sadly an even more troubling division to me,  because I have seen kids I work with be dismissed as completely worthless simply because they do not communicate verbally. When the idiots doing so just don't understand sign!

The problem is not that systems are inherently discriminatory - they have to be to some degree in order to function properly, from what I have observed. The problem is that *people* are inherently tribal.

 

[quadrapiper]

The RCMP Commissioner was quoted saying this after she admitted she didn’t know what it meant.

"Systemic racism isn't about the behaviour of a single individual or the actions of one person. It's in the institutional structures that reflect the inequities that persist in our society. And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups.”

That, I think sums it up.  It isn’t just a police thing, it’s in society in a more broad sense and can be hard to pin down.  How does an organisation start to identify those things?

I agree with you Quadpiper, that Canada is not the same as the same as the US.  But I think that makes it harder to identify and deal with the issues that exist here.

We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.

 

[Remius]

We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.

I can’t disagree with that.

 

[Xylric]

We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.

I will admit to the occasional carelessly thought out statement which is perceived as racially charged, but that is simply a consequence of not thinking in language, which resultis in a translation error. For example, my niece's skin is an identical shade to the tea her mother and grandmother enjoy. She is the most beautiful child in the world to me, but describe her in those words to those who have never seen her, and some people ready to throttle me!

If someone thinks I am being racist, sexist, or homophobic, when I am indeed not, it is not a situation I would ever be able to resolve - for the simple reason that as they have already concluded their perception of me as such a bigoted individual is accurate, anything I say would be taken as tainted and not worth hearing. As the conclusion of systemic racism has already been reached, it is simply not possible to disprove it should it not actually exist.

I think the most subtle cause for an organization to not do well with POC (I dislike the term because of how *regional* it seems. If I lived and worked in Nairobi, for example, would that not make *me* the POC?) is rather an obvious one. If you are expecting racism, you will find racism.

 

[lenaitch]

I hope you recovered.

I was fine (thanks) other than airbag rash and a written-off 7 month old truck.  Local taxi crossed the centre line on a curve.  We knew it was PI but a rear seat passenger died later.  Nobody was belted.  All she complained of was back pain.  Took everybody by surprise, even the paramedics.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"PoC" was a retrograde step if I ever saw one.  Hard to believe it is still being used.  Have the people who build little shrines to it ever realized they divided the world into white people and PoCs, thereby erasing all the distinctiveness of everyone in the latter group?

 

[FSTO]

Did cop #2 use a bit more force than necessary? Yeah he likely did. Did I think it was overtly excessive considering the circumstances? Not particularly.

I re-watched that video. You can hear the second police car approaching due to the siren. So cop 2 arrives on scene and sees Cop 1 struggling with a person. Cop 2 has really no information of what is going on and all he sees is a struggle and he doesn't know if it is just a struggle for control or a struggle for the gun. There are no fair fights in these situations, Cop 2 will take out suspect as quickly as possible and if that takes a forearm shiver to the side of the head so be it.

Comments like this from federal government ministers only display their total ignorance and their attempts to display their Wokeness Point Totals.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7060131/rcmp-allan-adam-arrest/

 

[FJAG]

I re-watched that video. You can hear the second police car approaching due to the siren. So cop 2 arrives on scene and sees Cop 1 struggling with a person. Cop 2 has really no information of what is going on and all he sees is a struggle and he doesn't know if it is just a struggle for control or a struggle for the gun. There are no fair fights in these situations, Cop 2 will take out suspect as quickly as possible and if that takes a forearm shiver to the side of the head so be it.

Comments like this from federal government ministers only display their total ignorance and their attempts to display their Wokeness Point Totals.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7060131/rcmp-allan-adam-arrest/

Honestly, I think you need to rewatch the video one more time starting around 6:59 which is when officer #2 arrives. There is very little struggle at that point and considering officer #1 had a grip on him from behind and officer#2 came in from the front showed that they had a level of control over the situation which did not merit the immediate hard grab for a headlock which came at 7:05.

I don't like making snap judgments from the comfort of my easy chair any more than you do, but, while I'm definitely of the "pro-cop" persuasion, I can easily understand why many people may view this episode as an unnecessary act of violence by cop #2.

That said I agree with you completely about the one-side virtue blabber that is coming out of the mouths of our government officials. This is not the time to throw a vital element of our security structure under the bus to gain some political points, especially with a segment of the society whose vote they can pretty much count on anyway. A more even handed approach is needed, one which makes it clear that the situation will be examined and corrective action, where warranted, will be taken. Too have a man who plays serial dress-up in blackface say out loud that the RCMP suffers from systemic racism is a bit much.

:cheers:

 

[FSTO]

Honestly, I think you need to rewatch the video one more time starting around 6:59 which is when officer #2 arrives. There is very little struggle at that point and considering officer #1 had a grip on him from behind and officer#2 came in from the front showed that they had a level of control over the situation which did not merit the immediate hard grab for a headlock which came at 7:05.

I don't like making snap judgments from the comfort of my easy chair any more than you do, but, while I'm definitely of the "pro-cop" persuasion, I can easily understand why many people may view this episode as an unnecessary act of violence by cop #2.

That said I agree with you completely about the one-side virtue blabber that is coming out of the mouths of our government officials. This is not the time to throw a vital element of our security structure under the bus to gain some political points, especially with a segment of the society whose vote they can pretty much count on anyway. A more even handed approach is needed, one which makes it clear that the situation will be examined and corrective action, where warranted, will be taken. Too have a man who plays serial dress-up in blackface say out loud that the RCMP suffers from systemic racism is a bit much.

:cheers:

Totally valid assessment of my comment.
What we don't have is the POV of the second officer as he came on the scene.
All I can say is that its a job I wouldn't want to have.

cheers!

 

[Xylric]

"PoC" was a retrograde step if I ever saw one.  Hard to believe it is still being used.  Have the people who build little shrines to it ever realized they divided the world into white people and PoCs, thereby erasing all the distinctiveness of everyone in the latter group?

At some point, my favourite response will be to pretend be extraordinarily offended at the assumption that I am the same as the English, as I am so Scottish that my ancestors were the first humans to set foot on the Highlands. My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman, so unfortunately there is some history involved there. Absolutely it is a retrograde step. It is worse than a step, it is a deceleration burn and can quite likely demolish all progress in the area.

I like to make the simple argument that an ideology without any sort of braking mechanism is ultimately doomed to become a suicide cult, and for good reason. If you have to silence (not necessarily kill) those who dissent with your ideology in order to ensure it survives and propogate, you will have to do the same to those who object to the measures you use to ensure silence. And so on, endlessly. Your ideology would be doomed to become cannibalistic in order to remain free of impurities.

I do not like the term "Person of Colour" because it creates the same kind of issue as any other identity-driven groups. It places a descriptive trait ahead of the more important fact of our common humanity. It starts a game that one can never win or walk away from without consequence. That does not mean that it is a useless term that should be avoided, of course. One should just be aware of the ideological assumptions that surround it. My sister-in-law is Kenyan, and while that does mean her skin is on the opposite side of the gradient from my own, it is an irrelevant descriptive detail in my interactions with her. I don't interact with her as a PoC, I interact with her has my sister. If she chooses to describe herself in such terms, it changes nothing for me.

 

[Kilted]

My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman, so unfortunately there is some history involved there.

That type of thinking is odd (granted I don't know of any particulars in this case and am referring to English and Scottish in general) given the number of times that the Royal Families of the two married into each other in till the Royal Lines merged. Not to mention they married into almost every other Royal Family in Europe. This is significant because of how many millions of people are desended from the Royal Families. Most people don't know the connection because it may have been a very long time ago. I have used the spare time I've had to look into ancestry.CA and I found that my 10x Great-Grandfather was the 22nd Earl of Mar, and from there I've been able to find numerous Dukes, Kings, and even a few Saints. We are actually a lot closer related then we think we are. Even to those who don't have the same colour skin, although a common ancestor might be further back.

 

[Xylric]

That type of thinking is odd (granted I don't know of any particulars in this case and am referring to English and Scottish in general) given the number of times that the Royal Families of the two married into each other in till the Royal Lines merged. Not to mention they married into almost every other Royal Family in Europe. This is significant because of how many millions of people are desended from the Royal Families. Most people don't know the connection because it may have been a very long time ago. I have used the spare time I've had to look into ancestry.CA and I found that my 10x Great-Grandfather was the 22nd Earl of Mar, and from there I've been able to find numerous Dukes, Kings, and even a few Saints. We are actually a lot closer related then we think we are. Even to those who don't have the same colour skin, although a common ancestor might be further back.

I know. I honestly think she would have tried to have my brother killed for his sins (marrying who he did), from what I had been told about her toxic attitudes. It was to the point where she was left to die alone, because my grandfather refused to see her. I can't blame him, but neither can I understand it. Point is, there is a distinct point In history I can point to where my family ceased to tolerate racial discrimination of ANY sort.

About 4% of my DNA traces to Western Africa, and shows a dating roughly in line with an old tale I found in some family records - one of my ancestors turned to piracy out of spite for a rival, and ended up attacking a slave ship. Family legend says he married one of the women on the ship and elected to continue to raid the rival's business, which my DNA appears to confirm. So I may have an ancestor who turned to piracy out of moral indignation over slavery, may not. Simply makes it impossible for me to tolerate the sort of thinking that allows for racism.

 

[OldSolduer]

That said I agree with you completely about the one-side virtue blabber that is coming out of the mouths of our government officials. This is not the time to throw a vital element of our security structure under the bus to gain some political points, especially with a segment of the society whose vote they can pretty much count on anyway. A more even handed approach is needed, one which makes it clear that the situation will be examined and corrective action, where warranted, will be taken. Too have a man who plays serial dress-up in blackface say out loud that the RCMP suffers from systemic racism is a bit much.

:cheers:

Consider that the Province of Quebec has played the language card since before I was born - playing the victim. They have also shown great intolerance for people of other cultures, let alone colour of skin.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Consider that the Province of Quebec has played the language card since before I was born - playing the victim. They have also shown great intolerance for people of other cultures, let alone colour of skin.

A minority within a minority: Quebec's struggle to face racism

"White francophones are both a majority that is privileged in Quebec, and a minority that historically has been racialized based on their culture, on their religion and on their voice," he says.

"They're extremely scared here — if they denounce racism — that it will be used by the rest of Canada to actually racialize us, as Quebecers, saying: 'Obviously it's a culture that is racist.'"

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-9-2018-1.4567875/a-minority-within-a-minority-quebec-s-struggle-to-face-racism-1.4567938

 

[Halifax Tar]

At some point, my favourite response will be to pretend be extraordinarily offended at the assumption that I am the same as the English, as I am so Scottish that my ancestors were the first humans to set foot on the Highlands. My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman, so unfortunately there is some history involved there. Absolutely it is a retrograde step. It is worse than a step, it is a deceleration burn and can quite likely demolish all progress in the area.

My family are Irish Catholic immigrants.  Who moved to rural Ont North of Kingston (Verona <-> Tamworth) around the turn of the century. 

My grandmother tells how her Protestant boyfriend (future husband) brought her home to meet his family; his mother threw a pot of boiling water at her.  After that I assume they became estranged from his side of the family as in my 41 years I have never met anyone from that side. 

Apparently my ancestral grounds were heavy Orange Order territory.  To the point that they had Orange Order parades and the like.  My understanding is it become somewhat violent at times.  But I have never experienced that.  Over the years intermarrying was widespread and that whole prejudice has died out. 

 

[GR66]

My family are Irish Catholic immigrants.  Who moved to rural Ont North of Kingston (Verona <-> Tamworth) around the turn of the century. 

My grandmother tells how her Protestant boyfriend (future husband) brought her home to meet his family; his mother threw a pot of boiling water at her.  After that I assume they became estranged from his side of the family as in my 41 years I have never met anyone from that side. 

Apparently my ancestral grounds were heavy Orange Order territory.  To the point that they had Orange Order parades and the like.  My understanding is it become somewhat violent at times.  But I have never experienced that.  Over the years intermarrying was widespread and that whole prejudice has died out.

My Catholic grandmother in Montreal was excommunicated from the church in the 1920's for marrying an Anglican.

Growing up in suburban Ontario (Aurora...not too far North of Toronto) in the 1970's there was still a Loyal Orange Lodge in town and if I'm not mistaken there are still annual Orangemen's parades in Toronto.  Not sure how big they are anymore but I do seem to recall them being televised and a fairly big event.