Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[OldSolduer]

A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.

The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.

Once they outlived their usefulness

 

[Donald H]

The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.

So to refer back to racism, the Nazis' fascist regime didn't move as quickly as you appear to be suggesting. We could refer to the rise of the German Workers' Party in 1910 or Hitler's election in 1933.

My point being, many Americans are showing concern over Trump's voicing of his agenda at least. Have we all reached agreement on that, even though Trump's 'spoken' agenda hasn't seen fruition?

BLM is in my opinion, the less than equal but opposite reaction.

And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?

Those who are concerned are not exaggerating in my opinion. That is my position to debate here in the context of racism. Trump doesn't have the power to postpone or cancel the election but the Congress does. The Senate might but the Hous wouldn't. The Scotus could make it happen. The Scotus has already decided one election for the people.

Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?

 

[shawn5o]

And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?

Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?

We already sasw that type of movie with former GG Michaelle Jean (Haiti and frechcitizenship, former GG Adrienne Clarkson (Hong Kong), current leader of the opposition in parliament Andrew Scheer (American - btw, there was some news circulated that condemned his American citizenship), former leader of the NDP Tom Mulcair (French and Québec - just kidding about la belle province), cuurent (L)MP HEDY FRY Trinidadian), current MP(L) Pablo Rodríguez (Argentinia) and I'm sure there are others as well.

 

[PuckChaser]

Moved the Trump stuff to the Fractured US thread. Don't need another thread derailed because someone brought him up.

 

[shawn5o]

Really? There are absolutely cases in which an expression can be a criminal offense or civil wrong, and rightly so. You don't get to utter threats (S.264.1 CC). You don't get to advocate genocide (S. 318 CC) or wilfully incite hate (S. 319 CC). You don't get to defame by libel and slander (civil torts).

This is not the government forcing opinions or thoughts on people. It's the government determining that some things are concretely harmful.

Beyond that there is the more nebulous world in which hate motivation is a factor in sentencing. Other than Ss. 318 and 319, 'hate' does not form any basis for offences in its own right, but where something that is already illegal anyway (e.g., assaults, threats, causing a disturbance, mischief, etc) is hate motivated, it can be considered an aggravating factor in sentencing (S. 718.2(a)(i) CC) , in order to deter people from committing things that are already independently criminal, because they think it's OK to do that because they hate an identifiable group.

So no, the state has not gone and newly criminalised anything because of new societal beliefs around what hate constitutes. 'hate crimes' are basically not a thing in Canada outside of the narrow scope of Ss. 318 and 319 which are both extremely rarely used. Instead the state has said 'if you insist on being a crappy person and do something that's already illegal because you hate a group, that will be a consideration in your sentencing'. This will not affect anyone who doesn't commit a crime.

There is the entirely separate realm of the various human rights commissions/tribunals at federal or provincial levels, but those don't involve police or criminal sanction and are outside the scope of this thread so far.

Well put Brihard.

s. 319(2)

I thinking of Jim Keegsta, [A]n Alberta high school teacher, was charged under s. 319(2) of the Criminal Code  with wilfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti semitic statements to his students.

Per La Forest, Sopinka McLachlin JJ. (dissenting): Section 319(2) of the Code infringes the guarantee of freedom of expression.  Where, as in this case, an activity conveys or attempts to convey a meaning or message through a non violent form of expression, this activity falls within the sphere of the conduct protected by s. 2 (b).  This section protects all content of expression irrespective of the meaning or message sought to be conveyed, no matter how offensive it may be.  The government's purpose in enacting s. 319(2)  was to restrict freedom of expression by curtailing what people may say.  Section 319(2) , therefore, imposes a limit on s. 2 (b).

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/695/index.do


A small point but if dissenting SC judges disagree with other SC judges, then nothing is black and white.

 

[FJAG]

A small point but if dissenting SC judges disagree with other SC judges, then nothing is black and white.

Well, the majority makes the black letter law but your point is very valid that varying opinions amongst the most senior judges in the country (and probably a few appeal judges below) should give us pause to think.

:cheers:

 

[shawn5o]

Another nickle thrown in the debate about racism. I can only speak of my experiences. And I know that some members of minority groups are racist themselves.

I grew up and returned/retired back to my small town in Western Québec. The town and the reserve next door are interconnected - parts of the town and reserve are together as in shared streets, church, medical treatment (I used to get physiotherapy on the reserve), etc. Growing up, kids being kids, we would fight - English vs. French, FNs fighting English or French, and so on. By our teens, well now, things were changing. You know ... girls. Intermarriage between the three groups were common.

BTW, someone mentioned if a non-FN persons marries a FN then he/she would get the benefits. Around here, that is would not happen. My best friend, yes, he is FN and his parents treated me like family, which meant that if I got of line, Mrs would smack me with whatever was handy  :nod:

And the Mrs told us about her experiences in the residential schoolsystem. There wasn't physical/sexual violence but she was quiet about physchological or emotional violence. BTW, my wife is métisse and I do have FN in my ancestry.

I never met an African-Canadian until I went to TO. There my first girlfriend was African-Canadian. Her family treated me great. Others were not so friendly.

Fast fwd to joining the CF. Yes, there are racist/bigoted individuals in the CF. I recall a tpt clerk in Cornwallis throwing some work tickets on the floor of the office bitching about French being on the forms. I also recall a CSM and a few junior ranks who were openly racist.

The jokes about African-Canadians and FNs in the service were quite common. Then the Newfies decided they didn't want to be the butt of jokes either.

On my last live fire exercise, my fire team partner was black. We got along good. Now imagine my surprise when I went to see my ex and he comes walking out of my old house. "Be cool" he said. That he was with my ex didn't bother me. Believe me, I felt really sorry for him ;D

But when I was young, I used the N word. Not out of privilege but out of ignorance. I guess a lot of people did.

And the Jewish people. My good friend and firearms coach is Jewish. And there was a Captain who we overheard "that Jew boy will never get promoted while I'm here".

 

[stellarpanther]

I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that shit to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.

 

[Xylric]

But when I was young, I used the N word. Not out of privilege but out of ignorance. I guess a lot of people did.

I have never used that word, but that didn't stop me from being given a serious black eye because a classmate claimed that I had called someone that term. The school I went to was very, very prompt at dealing with bullying when it involved minority students, but it took my parents bringing the police into matters for them to actually intervene with *all* bullying.

 

[CBH99]

I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that crap to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.

Agreed 100%

Let the real life Jerry Springer s**tshow stay south of the border as much as possible


Edit:  Maybe it is just to show solidarity with what is happening south of the border?  I do agree with you though

 

[Kilted]

I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that crap to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.

It might not make a difference to them.  I've kind of always hoped that they would move.  They are an unfortunate distraction when both they and the Leafs make the playoffs at the same time, because their games seem to always happen at the same time, especially if you are trying to watch the game at a bar.