Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[LittleBlackDevil]

How many times has he been pulled over.  Or harassed or whatever.  How long before someone finally snaps.

No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?

That being said, the video on its own does not seem to paint the whole picture.  To be honest the Chief looked like he was asking for it with his aggressive posture and behaviour.

I'd say more than "looks like" and, would say "he actually did ask for it". You can hear him yell at the officer “You and I are going to have a f---ing problem, right here and right f---ing now.”

He takes off his jacket and throws it to the ground and takes up a clear fighting stance with fists clenched:

One has to wonder why things escalate the way they do over trivial things like an expired plate.

In this case it happened because Chief Adam got immediately pissed off and confrontational over being pulled over for having an expired plate. Any one of us here would be pulled over if we were driving with plates that expired 10 months ago too.

As for why he got so angry over being subjected to the same treatment any one else would receive for driving with plates expired 10 months ago, maybe he has a history with this officer or the police in general. Maybe  he hates police. Maybe he's been abused by police in the past. This is stuff that can't be determined by people on the internet. It might be determined in a trial, but that said, having a bad history with police doesn't necessarily justify being aggressive and challenging them to fight. The main point is that this video in and of itself does not show police racism IMO.

I've seen many traffic stops escalate and usually its because the people involved get enraged because they feel they shouldn't have to follow the laws everyone else does, or, getting really angry and aggressive has worked for them many times in the past to get out of trouble (because most people don't want to deal with that stuff and retreat) so they go to their tried-and-true method of avoiding trouble.

 

[Remius]

No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?

Not saying the stop wasn’t legit.  But when you have certain racial groups that feel that the police unfairly target them, any stop, legit or not could set them off.  The straw that breaks the camel’s back?

The question should be why certain groups feel unfairly targeted.  Are they?  If so then why?

But I can only go on what that video shows.  like I said, it looks like he was asking for it.

 

[Kat Stevens]

No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?

I'd say more than "looks like" and, would say "he actually did ask for it". You can hear him yell at the officer “You and I are going to have a f---ing problem, right here and right f---ing now.”

He takes off his jacket and throws it to the ground and takes up a clear fighting stance with fists clenched:

In this case it happened because Chief Adam got immediately pissed off and confrontational over being pulled over for having an expired plate. Any one of us here would be pulled over if we were driving with plates that expired 10 months ago too.

As for why he got so angry over being subjected to the same treatment any one else would receive for driving with plates expired 10 months ago, maybe he has a history with this officer or the police in general. Maybe  he hates police. Maybe he's been abused by police in the past. This is stuff that can't be determined by people on the internet. It might be determined in a trial, but that said, having a bad history with police doesn't necessarily justify being aggressive and challenging them to fight. The main point is that this video in and of itself does not show police racism IMO.

I've seen many traffic stops escalate and usually its because the people involved get enraged because they feel they shouldn't have to follow the laws everyone else does, or, getting really angry and aggressive has worked for them many times in the past to get out of trouble (because most people don't want to deal with that stuff and retreat) so they go to their tried-and-true method of avoiding trouble.

Thank you. I was about to post that maybe the coffee pot was broken, the pork chops were overcooked, or 7-11 was out of lime slurpees. So what? Choose the hill you want to die on.  You said it way better.

 

[Remius]

Thank you. I was about to post that maybe the coffee pot was broken, the pork chops were overcooked, or 7-11 was out of lime slurpees. So what? Choose the hill you want to die on.  You said it way better.

Or maybe he spent his whole life the victim of racism?  Maybe he’s been pulled over a hundred times for no reason.  I realise that might not be as serious at burned pork chops or a shortage of slurpees to some, but people around the world are upset for a reason.

And some can only get pushed so far. 

But as you’ve stated, you are still responsible for your own actions.  I can agree with that.

 

[Quirky]

The question should be why certain groups feel unfairly targeted.

Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified? People are ultimately idiots, as a whole, and feel the need to act like a-holes towards law enforcement. Don’t be a prick if you are pulled over and you won’t get drama. People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it, in some form or another. Just be nice, because you’ll never win the argument and if you end up 6 feet under it’s likely your fault for escalating.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Or maybe he spent his whole life the victim of racism?  Maybe he’s been pulled over a hundred times for no reason.  I realise that might not be as serious at burned pork chops or a shortage of slurpees to some, but people around the world are upset for a reason.

And some can only get pushed so far. 

But as you’ve stated, you are still responsible for your own actions.  I can agree with that.

So either you, I, both of us, or neither of us may be right. That's what maybe is worth, slightly more than what if.

 

[mariomike]

Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified? People are ultimately idiots, as a whole, and feel the need to act like a-holes towards law enforcement. Don’t be a prick if you are pulled over and you won’t get drama. People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it, in some form or another. Just be nice, because you’ll never win the argument and if you end up 6 feet under it’s likely your fault for escalating.

"People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it"

I haven't been to police academy. Is that part of the training in Canada?

 

[PuckChaser]

Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified?

Here's the problem: I'm not a cop or lawyer, but I'm pretty sure being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.

 

[MilEME09]

Here's the problem: I'm not a cop or lawyer, but I'm pretty sure being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.

Not to mention it does not look at socio-economic issues affecting said groups, crime is sometimes a matter of survival for some, community out reach programs, etc have limited reach with limited funds. When looking at a demographic that may be more likely to commit crime we should and need to look at the underlying causes and address them.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

... being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.

Agreed and also correct in law. Racial profiling is expressly prohibited as a reason for stopping/detaining people in Canada.

But that's not what happened here. Chief Adam was legitimately stopped because his license plate had been expired for 10 months. That's not stopping someone because of their demographics, it's stopping them because they're breaking the law and anyone in Canada driving with a plate that long expired would get pulled over and ticketed if the police saw them.

A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).

 

[Kat Stevens]

I got a $120, if I’m remembering it right, ticket in St Albert for having an obscured plate more than 24 hours after it stopped snowing. Didn’t even have to get out of the truck.

 

[Remius]

A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).

Happened to me too a few years ago.  Got a warning.  But not once did I think I was being stopped for the colour of my skin.  Like your friend I’m “100%” white.  not sure some visible minority groups feel the same way though when they see the flashing lights pulling them over.

 

[brihard]

Agreed and also correct in law. Racial profiling is expressly prohibited as a reason for stopping/detaining people in Canada.

But that's not what happened here. Chief Adam was legitimately stopped because his license plate had been expired for 10 months. That's not stopping someone because of their demographics, it's stopping them because they're breaking the law and anyone in Canada driving with a plate that long expired would get pulled over and ticketed if the police saw them.

A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).

Chief Adam was not stopped for having expired registration. Chief Adam wasn’t stopped at all. His wife was behind the wheel of a running vehicle with expired tags and he chose to involve himself and obstruct a completely lawful and benign traffic stop. His subsequent behaviours could have been a use of force training video on a subject showing threat cues. Make sure you watch the full twelve minute version, not the four or five minute edit.

Running license plates and doing stops for expired tags is utterly routine and very common. We get lots of stuff that way- expired tags get you to the window to check license, registration, insurance, and sobriety, and ID and run the driver. That’s basic proactive policing.

I’m quite confident that every Mountie in Alberta has their own safety firmly in mind when checking license plates at casinos...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If I thought for a second that I was being unfairly targeted I'd have to be really really stupid to not renew my plates.....

 

[lenaitch]

When I saw the 'extended version' I figured from the beginning that this stop was going to go sideways.  The victim, not being the driver, was aggressive from the get-go.  Either one or both of the females tried to calm him without apparent success.  He was likely going to end up on the ground or draped over the truck at some point.  It is entirely possible that the member did not know the 'demographic profile' of the occupants before he walked up to the window.  It's Fort Mac - could have been a Newf expat for all he knew.  The fact that he is an elected chief gives him no more gravitas than anybody else.

Routine traffic enforcement shouldn't end up in a melee, but unless there was some provocative audio we are not aware of, the member didn't start it.  Is a diving tackle textbook?  Likely not, but sometimes, law enforcement looks messy.  Truth is, most cops are only proficient with a few hands-on tactics and even those don't always work as planned.  There is no choreographer like on TV,

What does the public expect; shrug and walk away at the first sign of push-back?  If there is too much social reaction or posting of cops' heads on pikes to satisfy the noisy voices, you will see more FIDO (F*** It, Drive On).

 

[mariomike]

, you will see more FIDO (F*** It, Drive On).

Windows UP! Don't touch the radio. Eyes on the road. Not the sidewalk. Sunglasses on.

( Not sure if that's how the police do it? )

 

[lenaitch]

Windows UP! Don't touch the radio. Eyes on the road.

( Not sure if that's how the police do it? )

It's like field investigations (aka 'carding').  Before, if you saw some guys hanging around behind a business at night, you checked them out, made some notes and submitted some field cards on them.  Police have the right to ask questions, and the public has a right, in most cases, to not answer.  If the day shift had some overnight crimes in the area, it was a starting point.  Now, it's a form justifying the reasons for asking questions in a public place, copy to the lads, instructions how to complain, and internally scrutinized to approve your actions.  Now, see the guys, drive on.

 

[mariomike]

Before, if you saw some guys hanging around behind a business at night, you checked them out, made some notes and submitted some field cards on them. 

As a resident, I'm in favour it.

Admittedly, I have had very few off-duty interactions with Metro Police. Possibly because I am white. More likely because I have always been very careful about my driving.

Possibly "professional courtesy" was a factor.

Perhaps "Community Engagement" would have a nicer ring to it than "carding". 

 

[quadrapiper]

If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki.

There's also the question of which definition of systemic racism is being tossed around: one's "this outfit's riddled with racists," the other seems to boil down to "this outfit's structured/tasked in a way that ends up boning minorities."

Probably easier to figure out which pertains in a Canadian setting, since we've got massively fewer distinctly racist policymakers, senior civil service/police/flag and general staff, etc. than our southern neighbours, who do have those, especially on the civvy and LEO side, and various systems built consciously first in a slaveholding society, and then post-Civil War, to keep black people out of power and under control.

 

[Remius]

The RCMP Commissioner was quoted saying this after she admitted she didn’t know what it meant.

"Systemic racism isn't about the behaviour of a single individual or the actions of one person. It's in the institutional structures that reflect the inequities that persist in our society. And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups.”

That, I think sums it up.  It isn’t just a police thing, it’s in society in a more broad sense and can be hard to pin down.  How does an organisation start to identify those things?

I agree with you Quadpiper, that Canada is not the same as the same as the US.  But I think that makes it harder to identify and deal with the issues that exist here.