Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[Bruce Monkhouse]

For me there are no bad parents.

Then you are a friggin' idiot. Full stop.

Apologies to the site for my bluntness.

 

[Lil_T]

With duee respect, super and this oone is not aimed at you. There are lots of factors  that takes one too long to mature. Sometimes, their parents are to blame. For me there are no bad parents. But if you spoil your children chances are it would be late for him/her to maature.

False.

There are people who attend Sunday school. A large percentage of them mature fast.

  please elaborate! 

Sometimes peer groups are the cause of late maturity. I belong to this group. It tookk me 45 years to mature. Now I am very conscious of my behaviour especially in this Country Canada where everyonoe should be very-lawabiding or else your future becoomes bleak.

 

I don't think you are done yet. 

I also don't understand the point of your post.  Are you implying a lack of spirituality is the root cause of this widespread selfishness?

 

[George Wallace]

People aren't 'born' teachers in the same way people aren't 'born' leaders.

I was set off by a post that I just stopped reading because the person who posted it couldn't tell the difference between such words as "there", "their", "they're" and "they are" but thought I could make it through this topic without commenting.  Wrong!  This comment, above, does need commenting on.  Just as people aren't "born teachers", nor are others "born leaders", an education and a certificate on their wall does not necessarily make them "teachers" or "leaders".  Unfortunately, our society has progressed digressed to the point that one needs a piece of paper hanging on their "I love me wall" to justify their hiring, especially by Government.

 

[George Wallace]

If one were to look back on articles written on these subjects in the 1970's, we would be seeing nothing has changed in the past 40 years.  One would have figured that the Education Institutions, the governments, etc would have improved in some measure; but no.  Instead it is just a case of "SALY".

 

[chris_log]

I was set off by a post that I just stopped reading because the person who posted it couldn't tell the difference between such words as "there", "their", "they're" and "they are" but thought I could make it through this topic without commenting.  Wrong!  This comment, above, does need commenting on.  Just as people aren't "born teachers", nor are others "born leaders", an education and a certificate on their wall does not necessarily make them "teachers" or "leaders".  Unfortunately, our society has progressed digressed to the point that one needs a piece of paper hanging on their "I love me wall" to justify their hiring, especially by Government.

I think previous posts I've made on this site indicate my distaste of credentialism.

However, I stand by my view that teachers are not born and a degree in education does help give the foundation needed to teach young students. My understanding of the way these degrees are taught (from a number of friends of mine who are taking the program) is that it is, unlike many degrees, much more 'hands on' and the theories taught are grounded in reality more so then other degrees. You need a starting point, somewhere, and an education degree does give people the theoretical and practical (through student teaching placements) foundation to start their career. Of course, being a good teacher requires more then just a piece of paper. But I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

Think of a teaching degree (or any degree I guess) as a QL3 course. Did you come off your 3's as a super-duper-armoured trooper? No. Did it give you the foundation needed to go on and gain experience and work in that environment? Yes. Same goes for a degree.

I don't put a lot of stock in higher education and I dislike the belief that a degree somehow implies that one is ready for anything, but it does help give people the foundation to move on in life. Looking back on my 4 years at school I must say that many people (myself included) are often too quick to discount liberal arts education.

 

[George Wallace]

Piper

I agree with you.  An education can help greatly, but at the same time, it doesn't necessarily provide the ideal solution, all the time.  If you look a little deeper into "Government" and what pieces of paper are expected, and who is hired and who is not; it is often not the person with the real knowledge and experience, but the person who has that "piece of paper on the wall".  That other extreme is a problem, but we are wandering off topic if we go much further into other agencies hiring practices.

 

[Gunnar]

Quote from: mediocre1 on Today at 16:11:33
For me there are no bad parents.


Then you are a friggin' idiot. Full stop.

He's probably just a mediocre thinker.  8)

 

[ex-Sup]

Oh so many responses, where to start?

First off, as I’ve said before on this site, I am not the end all and be all. I am not the most knowledgeable, nor the most experienced teacher around. Yoda I am not. However, I think my years in the profession and my experience do give me quite a bit of creditability.

Ballz, I appreciate your comments and you do raise some valid points. Yes, I will agree with you that having a B.Ed does not make one a “teacher.” Most teachers will tell you, whether they were in the 4/5 year concurrent program (like me) or the 1 year program, that teacher's college is a joke. I did have some good instructors, but some equally laughable. I remember one, nice enough guy, but he was older than dirt and hadn’t been in a classroom in 25+ years. What can you teach me about the realities of today’s schools? Another, again a great guy, but since he was on tenure, taught nothing close to what he was supposed to. He made us do seminars on the material he was supposed to teach; my favourite was when he wore his “a friend with weed is a friend indeed” t-shirt on the day a classmate brought her cousin the cop to class for the seminar. The only valuable things we learnt was when we did our placements (usually 2x5 weeks). I know from experience that even that was artificial; someone else’s classroom, rules and expectations for a short period of time. Even substitute teaching, which I did for a year and a half, lacks a lot of reality. Babysitting hooligans for the day with sometimes little to do is great (teaches you a lot about classroom management though!). I generally do not leave detailed lessons (a video if I can) as I want to teach it myself. The only real learning happens is when you get your own class, with your own rules and assigning/marking your own evaluations.

First off, my personal experience and knowledge does qualify me to discount an education degree. I don't need any formal qualifications to form or voice an opinion.
If my opinion doesn't hold enough weight with you to consider it, that's fine. Don't tell me I'm not qualified to have one.

Come again? No offence Ballz, but you have no qualifications! You may have experience as a student, but no knowledge. You are ENTITLED to an opinion, but not qualified. Let’s make that clear. As I’ve already mentioned, I’m not the authority, but I can back up what I have to say. I’ve gotten into many pissing matches on this site with members claiming to have “knowledge” on the subject. This may offend Piper, but I have some credentials and experience to back up what I say. I won’t list all my paperwork, but there’s a bunch (if you really care, I’ll send you to the College of Teachers to look at it). When you add that to 11+ years in the classrooms, 5+ years as a dept head (15+ teachers, nearly 70 sections), I think I might know a thing or two.
As far as I’m concerned, maybe the system is a bit flawed, but it gets sorted out in a hurry. New teachers realize quickly that they either perform or they won’t be getting hired (most teachers begin on contracts before they become permanent). I’ve seen it first hand; the majority tend to mend their ways. It is my firm belief that the educational system does give teachers some tools (see above), but you have to have the “knack.” A perfect example is the assumption that very smart people make great teachers. I’ve already mentioned that you to need to be fairly intelligent to become a teacher, but brains doesn’t necessarily translate into good pedagogy. My Gr.10 math teacher was a brilliant math and physics teacher; some of my peers thought he was great because he was so knowledgeable. I thought he was a mediocre teacher because he couldn’t understand why math dummies like me didn’t get the material. So what becomes the benchmark? How do we decide who gets in and who doesn’t? Maybe there should be an interview component, just like med school (I shudder to think what would happen if people became doctors simply based on their marks). I can’t see any changes coming down the pipe, so marks will continue to determine who becomes a teacher and those that can’t teach will find out soon enough.

 

[chris_log]

Piper

I agree with you.  An education can help greatly, but at the same time, it doesn't necessarily provide the ideal solution, all the time.  If you look a little deeper into "Government" and what pieces of paper are expected, and who is hired and who is not; it is often not the person with the real knowledge and experience, but the person who has that "piece of paper on the wall".  That other extreme is a problem, but we are wandering off topic if we go much further into other agencies hiring practices.

Indeed.

This may offend Piper, but I have some credentials and experience to back up what I say.

How on earth would that offend me?

 

[ex-Sup]

I think previous posts I've made on this site indicate my distaste of credentialism.

Unless I misunderstood you 

 

[Another Mom]

To Ballz
    "There is an undergraduate college in the US that does not give out grades at all; feedback is qualitative.  Students work to learn, not for grades."

Your answer:
That may work for artsy fartsy stuff, but I would never hire an engineer, mathematician, scientist (take your pick), or accountant that came out of that school. I certainly wouldn't let a doctor that came out of that system cut me open either."
My reply:
The school I was talking about is not an "artsy fartsy" school but one  in which each undergrad (Including chemistry and physics students) does an independent research project  of which their oral defence is their final.  Many fine research projects and  inventions have come from that school and you would be darn lucky to have a doctor or acct that came from there.  One of their  physics students invented the optical reading devise for the compact disc.  He was not working for grades.

Having said that, I am biased. My kids could get As without much effort so we always emphasized "Did you work hard" "Did you learn something?" and we weren't impressed with the As. They are all really cool, hard working adults now.

 

[chris_log]

Unless I misunderstood you 

Ahhhhhhhh. Gotcha. I wasn't sure if it was a joke or you were being serious (were you?).

Credentialism can be defined as "a negative term used to describe a primary reliance on credentials for purposes of conferring jobs or social status". In other words, it refers to people getting hired for jobs or positions based solely on what pieces of paper hang on their walls.

Don't worry, you're in the clear in my books (not that it matters). 

 

[Michael OLeary]

From the Mail on line:

'Dyslexic children simply struggle to read': Expert claims tens of thousands are being falsely diagnosed

Tens of thousands of pupils are being falsely diagnosed with dyslexia because parents and schools failed to teach them to read properly, according to a leading academic.

Professor Joe Elliott, of Durham University, said parents whose children have trouble with reading often push for the dyslexic 'label' simply to secure extra help for them.

But in fact there are many children who simply struggle to read and require help at an early age.

He voiced his concerns as figures suggested a steep rise in the number of children being termed dyslexic.

Professor Elliot said that around one in ten children - more than a million - are now diagnosed with the condition, up from barely any two decades ago.

Figures from exams watchdog Ofqual have shown that the number of candidates granted extra help to pass their exams has doubled in just three years.

Schools agreed 105,000 requests for special assistance during exams in 2008 - usually in the form of extra time - compared with 44,000 in 2005. They have the discretion to agree up to 25 per cent of extra time - 45 minutes extra for a three-hour exam.

There was also an increase in the number of requests approved by exam boards for special help, though these normally relate to the more serious cases.

More at link.

Note the assigning of responsibility to parents and teachers.  Much of this thread has focussed on the students and teachers, rather than the role of parents in preparing their children for school, and life in general.

 

[ex-Sup]

Don't worry, you're in the clear in my books (not that it matters). 

Good, because my papers are still in the folders that they gave me at graduation in 1996.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I've seen lots of people with nothing but Grade 10 and a PLQ instruct and teach alot better than some teachers with diplomas and degrees.

A diploma or degree makes you no more a teacher than a license makes you a Formula One driver.

 

[Greymatters]

... Dyslexic children simply struggle to read': Expert claims tens of thousands are being falsely diagnosed...

... Note the assigning of responsibility to parents and teachers.  Much of this thread has focussed on the students and teachers, rather than the role of parents in preparing their children for school, and life in general.

The same was said of rising ADD/ADHD number in kids over a decade ago - Ive read of subsequent studies reported that too many kids were being given drugs to counter this condition when the real problem was a lack of parents teaching their kids what acceptable social behaviour was and/or too much sugar in the kids' diet...

 

[Michael OLeary]

The same was said of rising ADD/ADHD number in kids over a decade ago - Ive read of subsequent studies reported that too many kids were being given drugs to counter this condition when the real problem was a lack of parents teaching their kids what acceptable social behaviour was and/or too much sugar in the kids' diet...

Well, once you drug the most disruptive kid in the class, the teacher can always point to the next one as "the most disruptive kid in class."  Where does it end.

And too many parents are too willing to accept that "solution."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yup, and then a lot of those "soluted" end up in jail as Ritalin snorters......[extremely additive]

 

[KingKikapu]

Could I just have a little clarification?

One of their  physics students invented the optical reading devise for the compact disc.  He was not working for grades.

Was this for his project in his undergrad, or did he do this after his formal (BSc, MSc (maybe), and PHd) training?  I'm assuming the latter, but who knows.



For what it's worth, I never studied at a liberal arts type school, but we also had to do a year long research thesis that was defended and marked.

 

[ballz]

First off let me say that I'm glad George and ex-Sup weighed in on this because I think we've found the common ground that will allow this discussion to be productive. I think Piper and myself came across each other in a way that made us sound like we completely disagreed with each other and I don't think that's the case.

I must say that many people (myself included) are often too quick to discount liberal arts education.

I'll admit that I could, with more life experience, find myself guilty of this, but at the current time, I'm not sure I give "liberal arts" any less credit than it deserves. With that said, I'll go continue on.

Just as people aren't "born teachers", nor are others "born leaders", an education and a certificate on their wall does not necessarily make them "teachers" or "leaders".  Unfortunately, our society has progressed digressed to the point that one needs a piece of paper hanging on their "I love me wall" to justify their hiring

This is perhaps the most accurate way to sum up what it is I'm advocating with my uber long posts.

Ballz, I appreciate your comments and you do raise some valid points. Yes, I will agree with you that having a B.Ed does not make one a “teacher.” Most teachers will tell you, whether they were in the 4/5 year concurrent program (like me) or the 1 year program, that teacher's college is a joke.

I'm not sure how relevant my next comment is going to be, but I just want to say that, with regards to the specific Social Studies teacher I was talking about, anytime her ability was questioned (and it was, by me especially, in a private setting) her only defense was "I have 2 degrees in 5 years," and had I been naive enough she certainly would have let me believe she did 8 years of learning in 5 years as opposed to what it really meant. But anyway, this is all to support my statement that an education degree is not a high enough standard, and I don't think you would disagree with me. Like you said, "I shudder to think what would happen if people became doctors simply based on their marks," and this is all I'm advocating. A teacher shouldn't be considered fit to teach just based on formal qualifications.

Come again? No offence Ballz, but you have no qualifications! You may have experience as a student, but no knowledge. You are ENTITLED to an opinion, but not qualified. Let’s make that clear.

Experience is a qualification. I'm done high school and in university right now. In getting my high school diploma, I was probably taught by 60+ different people in two provinces, and so far in university I've had 15 different profs. I don't think if you had this discussion with your classroom (I'm sure you might never do that for professional reasons, understood), you would discredit your students' input (and I am not accusing you of not taking mine seriously. I think we're on the same page from what I can see.). Consider also that I'm the product of the system right now, and I'm one of the people the original article is talking about.

As far as I’m concerned, maybe the system is a bit flawed, but it gets sorted out in a hurry.

This is the only thing I think you've said that I would disagree with. I've never seen or heard of a teacher leaving a school unless it was under their own terms. I have never seen a bad teacher "fired," and in fact I've seen things that would give a school a damn good excuse to get rid of somebody if they wanted to, and they still didn't do it, even though they should have been happy to have that excuse. Unfortunately, I think the job is too in demand to allow this, so the standards continue to lower.

A perfect example is the assumption that very smart people make great teachers. I’ve already mentioned that you to need to be fairly intelligent to become a teacher, but brains doesn’t necessarily translate into good pedagogy. My Gr.10 math teacher was a brilliant math and physics teacher; some of my peers thought he was great because he was so knowledgeable. I thought he was a mediocre teacher because he couldn’t understand why math dummies like me didn’t get the material. So what becomes the benchmark? How do we decide who gets in and who doesn’t? Maybe there should be an interview component, just like med school (I shudder to think what would happen if people became doctors simply based on their marks).

Cheers to that. The problem I have is that you said right after this "I can't see any changes coming down the pipe," and that is unfortunate in my opinion.