Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[leroi]

So now that we see how scholastic skills have dropped, where does the sense of entitlement come from?

Despite popular opinion, university students are not spoiled brats, so that is not where it comes from.

Nauticus, of course there are many hard-working, mature, well-adjusted university students too. We are discussing general trends, only.  :nod:

A history professor might say the sense of entitlement is cultural and stems from "the cult of the individual" that began in the middle of the last century. It's still being debated.

Maybe the students who want to work hard and learn something aren't bothering to go to Universities where:  there are 250-750 in a class;  where they are taught by grad students,   lecturers or  video;  where they take multiple-choice exams, etc.  The undergrad students I know who are in small classes, who write papers that are critiqued, who discuss their readings in class, who take oral exams and learn to defend their statements very work hard.

Another Mom,

The decline of the university system is another hugely contended issue! I did my undergrad at a small university and rate it quite high. I didn't have one TA the entire time.  I'm still friends with some of my professors/mentors and have the fondest memories of my time at Nipissing University--and, I worked my @ss off.

I remember sitting in a Philosophy class trying to read Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. The entire class was getting so frustrated the professor hauled us off to the student bar for beer where we discussed Kant's work until everyone had an understanding. 

 

[benny88]

One of the biggest problems is the enabling. Many parents go to extremes to defend their kids, and that has even spread to university. Parents calling profs to complain about marks, ask for assignment extensions, etc. My old man would have kicked me in the ass and then slapped me upside the head with the handset.

    My biggest pet peeve! An acquaintance told me just last week that his parents had called the Associate Dean on his behalf and half my milk came out my nose. I couldn't believe that a 20 year old still had his parents going to bat for him, and apart from the obvious cons, the questions and answers will probably get lost in translation anyways, it's much easier to get an answer without playing the game of telephone: student-parent-teacher/prof-parent-student.
    Last time I tried to pull a stunt like that I was 14 and tried to get my mom to call in sick to work for me. She learned me real quick.
    On the issue of the 5th year, I think it's tremendous. A family member of mine is head of a high school guidance dept and says she sees more well-rounded people go off and have success at university after staying 5 years. I think higher marks are up for debate, and that that is a lot of genetics anyways, but there's more to life and university than academics, and it's these things that can make you a more productive and ultimately, happy, person.
    Example: a young lady came to UWO having skipped a grade and turned 17 in the fall of our first year. She celebrated, and off she went to the hospital to get her stomach pumped. Now don't get me wrong, I'll knock back a few, especially on my birthday; but in this case, the lack of maturity on her part wasn't just detrimental, it was dangerous.
    Some of you who are further removed from that stage of your life may have forgotten just how much you can change in a single year (hormones are a wonderful thing), I definitely believe I was more successful in university and in training after a 5th year, and I would fully support bringing back OAC.



PS for those of you considering a 5th year before joining the military, it didn't hurt that I was a little bigger, faster, and stronger when I was 19 as opposed to 18.

 

[ballz]

I just wrote half a novel in this post talking about and trying to justify/explain what I'm about to say. Then I realized, I'm only preaching to the choir if I post on here, so I don't think I will need to draw a picture in crayon to explain myself and avoid being chastised for saying this.

It's (education, military, whatever the topic) because our society is becoming more and more left-wing.

I don't think it has anything to do with kids going to university too early or whatever. By the time you're 18, if you're parents died and left nothing behind, and you had to start at ground zero, you should be capable of keeping your head above water. You don't need your parents to deal with your problems anymore, they're YOUR problems.

EDIT to add: Also, this university students being spoiled brats thing, completely false. I would say 90% of my peers would describe themselves as dirt poor, and it is no exaggeration. I'm one of the few that's not in debt up to my ears.

As for lowering standards, that depends on schools. Most schools have minimums of 65% however, that does not mean a 65% will get you in. Some schools will take anybody, they need/want your money. Other schools, with more prestige, don't.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Re: the 5th year of high school.

In my opinion, many are taking this option to make up for not applying themselves in the preceding four years as much as they should have, or to have a virtual "gap year" before they have to work at university (assuming they intent to).  My son was in the very first 4-year cohort.  He had decided by the end of Grade 9 what his post-secondary plan was, he ensured he took the right prerequisites in each of Grades 10, 11 and 12, and walked into the highly sought after university co-op course he'd set his sights on four years earlier.  The 5th year was dropped because it was unnecessary for those who are actually trying to learn and have some focus for the future.

 

[benny88]

The 5th year was dropped because it was unnecessary for those who are actually trying to learn and have some focus for the future.

It's not fair to assume every person who takes the 5th year isn't driven or is a slacker. I will say that I'm sure there are people who do it for that reason though. You can't generalize either way.

 

[leroi]

Well, how's this for a different spin...let's talk about those who are answering the question. No one has mentioned anything about the profs themselves (other than the comments by Another Mom).

Now I'm not assuming that teachers are perfect, because we're not, but universities and profs are not untouchable either. I can remember some good ones, but also some not so good ones. There were some that were completely out of touch with reality and what was going on around them.

This is one of the key issues out there, especially for us in the educational community. The world around us is changing, and at times changing more quickly than we can adapt to it. Balancing fundamentals and the new reality is tough, and only going to get tougher. I've shown the following video to both my students and some of my colleagues. This is what we're dealing with here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpEnFwiqdx8

ex-Sup, I don't think anyone here would blame teachers for any of these educational woes. 

You are absolutely right about professors; we have a few at Guelph that are right out to lunch. (A couple of them are the subject of topics here at Army.ca  ;D)

Excellent Youtube video--demonstrates just what an accelerated culture we live in.

 

[JimMorrison19]

When I read the comments to the original story, I was struck by how many people said "Bring back Grade 13."  Is Ontario's curriculum so poor that another year of school is required?  I know New Brunswick has one of the best in the country, maybe that's why we were better prepared.    IMHO, I don't think the extra year (in age or school) would change the sense of entitlement.*

Totally agree with you there.

*Edit to add:  It would be interesting to know the demographics of the students as I'm sure they're probably not all from Ontario.

This is strange to me. For a long time I had thought that our system here was quite horrible, but my school may have been an exception, and it may not actually have been the curriculum. I can remember hearing about how the 120 Advanced Math and Calculus class supposedly didn't cover enough up-to-date info, so when most people went and applied to university they ended up taking Pre-Calculus courses there in order to know everything they needed. I think this was a load of crap - students were just making up nonsense about the teachers or the curriculum to cover the fact that they got wasted every weekend instead of studying (myself included, sometimes).

Looking back on it though, we really did have some wicked teachers; my physics teacher was ultimately the person who turned me onto the path with the way he taught.

 

[Signalman150]

Oh boy; where do I start?

No, it's not about grade 13; I was educated in a province where no such thing ever existed, and I teach in a another province where the same applies. No, it's not about lousy profs, and yes; I'm well aware there are many. It's about students who know they don't need to strain themselves to pass high school; it's about a generation of parents (my generation, by the way) who decided their children were the best and the brightest, and if the fool teachers didn't know that, they'd quickly set them to rights.

I instruct at an institute of technology. I've been doing it for two years and I love it.  I have some wonderful, talented and highly motivated students in my class; they make it fun to get up every day. In return I work hard to make sure I'm on top of my game every time I walk into a class. That has an affect on about one third of my students. Then there's the third who come in, sit down, cross their arms and defy me to teach them something. They haven't yet gotten past the high school mentality that the teacher is out to get them and ruin their lives.  I've had some success winning a few of them over, but it is--as they say--a tough slog.

Then there is the other third; now they're an interesting bunch.  They attend occasionally, often dropping off assignments in my mailbox to avoid having to come to class. The assignments they DO submit are amazing. Some of them are cribbed directly off the net, some are copied word-for-word from classmates, and some show the enthusiastic zeal of a somnambulistic slug. But, when they get their grade...oh my; do they ever come to life!

Cries of "my mother wants to talk to the program chair" ring through the halls. Then they discover the problem with no longer being a "student", but an "adult learner". If they are over 18 years of age, FOIP does not allow us to disclose anything of a personal nature to the parents, much less discuss it. For the first time in their lives these people realize that they have to be responsible for themselves, and it really doesn't matter how charming and talented and bright mom or dad thinks they are. It's a bitter blow.

And don't even think of laying this at the feet of the teachers in high school.  They have been given their marching orders from a provincial education ministry that will not allow them to discipline or fail a student. The government here has a program called the "Reluctant Zero". It's based on the idea that even if a student did NADA, they deserve a mark.  So, there is reason for these students feel entitled. (In case you missed it, I just removed the blame from the students; they are NOT lazy, they have merely adapted to the system). Most school teachers try as hard as they can, but if the student knows their are no consequences, why bother putting in all that effort? At their age, I would have felt precisely the same way.

One last observation, and I will cease ranting. I teach a particular subject that requires basic math skills.  At the beginning of the semester I gave my students a ten question quiz.  My intent was to have them do the quiz, then, after they all aced it, I would tell them they were ready for the final exam. It really wasn't an exaggeration;the course requires basic problem solving skills, and the ability to calculate perimeter, area, volume and averages. The marks I got back ranged from 0 to 7.

They were taught in junior high and high school, but were never required to LEARN. And--after all--if they didn't learn it, mom or dad would intervene, give the teacher a blast of crap, and they'd get a passing grade.

If anything is going to change, it will HAVE to be at the legislative level, and most certainly at the family level. My humble and profuse apologies for rambling on so.

 

[leroi]

Excellent post.

Teachers and Professors and Instructors are hamstrung by the system.
I have friends who teach and have collapsed on my doorstep with the most ludicrous stories about their own school boards not standing up for them when they try to do the right thing for a student.

I'm taking a university course at the moment after many years being away and am surprised at the lack of respect for the Professor. At first class he asked students to respect a couple of rules: 1) Cell phones and electronic gadgets off; and 2) arrive on time for lecture. Neither of these were observed.

Some students sautered in and out of class at leisure; it was very distracting for him and the class.

I have the utmost respect for teachers; it's not an easy job. 

 

[Another Mom]

Just to clarify, I never commented about the quality of professors and I don't think anyone here said this was about "lousy" profs.  I was commenting on a "System" where there are too many students in impersonal classes. I am sure committed profs do not want to teach in that system as committed students do not want to learn that way.

There is an undergraduate college in the US that does not give out grades at all; feedback is qualitative.  Students work to learn, not for grades. Interestingly, that college has the highest proportion of students that eventually go on to doctoral work. I think students who can't cut it, just  transfer.

Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.  But then, I guess the students that work only for grades in school,  turn out to be the same ones who work at a job only for the money.  Sad.

When I taught at our local Univ, I have to say I was shocked at the admin's apparent fear of getting sued by failed students. Those students didn't seem very bright, though  and I don't they could have learned the material by anyone requiring them to learn it.

 

[ballz]

There is an undergraduate college in the US that does not give out grades at all; feedback is qualitative.  Students work to learn, not for grades.

That may work for artsy fartsy stuff, but I would never hire an engineer, mathematician, scientist (take your pick), or accountant that came out of that school. I certainly wouldn't let a doctor that came out of that system cut me open either.

Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.

Alternatives are already out there, just not in the form of a post-secondary institution, because they don't belong there. We all know plenty of people with little formal education that are doing just dandy. I think the education system changing to accommodate these said people is what's leading to complaints outlined in article.

 

[hotei]

[quote author=Another Mom]But then, I guess the students that work only for grades in school,  turn out to be the same ones who work at a job only for the money.  Sad.
[/quote]

While my opinions and experiences are merely anecdotal, I would like to point out that at least in my case, this statement does not hold true. grades are precisely what I worked for in school. I, quite literally, craved the 'A's and 90%+ marks. I did that through grade school, high school and university and eventually led me to graduate as one of the top students in the province.

What did I end up doing after I left university for many moons?

Farm work. Not exactly your six-figure job (unless you count the zeroes after the decimal place), and it wasn't a family business. I would often work extra hours, not because it paid (because it didn't), but because it gave me skills and opportunities I mightn't have had otherwise. I had a drive to succeed, because there were no more 'A's or 90%+ marks to be had, and money is no indicator of happiness. At the end of the day, I was exhausted, paid only minimum wage, but had the time of my life and learned a tremendous amount.

On top of this, it has been my experience that those who are "after the money" are often those who are driven to do the least amount of work possible, both in work and school. I don't see too many people who work their butts off throughout school, and expect to coast after that.

Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.

This quote really confused me. I don't think our society needs more strata of bureaucracy and red tape, especially when we already have established systems to deal with people who do not wish to pursue academic achievement. Trade schools (though I believe even they are drifting outside of their mandate with programs for such things as diplomas in food service that amount to little more than a SmartServe certification and a job posting at Tim Horton's), apprenticeships, or even my method: going off into the community and knocking on doors. The latter will often yield not only job opportunities, but a greater involvement in one's community (a priceless thing, to be sure).

Just to clarify, I never commented about the quality of professors and I don't think anyone here said this was about "lousy" profs.  I was commenting on a "System" where there are too many students in impersonal classes. I am sure committed profs do not want to teach in that system as committed students do not want to learn that way.

I respectfully disagree. Not because all teachers or professors are bad, but they themselves are a product of the system they serve.

I can't count the number of professors I have had that essentially goofed off while working. I had one professor who often didn't show up for class. I had another who gave a hundred plus pages of reading for a week for an exam that consisted of 10 multiple choice questions that were often about inconsequential material. I even recall one professor who was fired from one of my universities who offered a guaranteed 70% to anyone who promised not to show up to any more classes. This doesn't even begin to count the number of classes I hve had that have been nearly exclusively taught by a TA who knew less about the lesson of the day than the students.

It is my belief that education has become a commodity, to be researched, manufactured, marketed, packaged, bought, sold and it really wouldn't surprise me if, when one turned education over, there was a sticker that said "Made in China". I need only point to enrolment levels in criminology programs in universities and colleges when CSI was popular. Likewise after Jurassic Park came out, palaeontology majors sky rocketed. It was the same with archaeology and Indiana Jones, or to bring it closer to home, the USAF with Top Gun.

All of this, however revolves around my belief that much of the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the face in the mirror. Too often people say that they are "too busy" for their family duties. These are people who show poor time management skills, and try to buy their way into familial success.

Contrast this with my own anecdotal evidence: my mother, a single woman (by choice), who attended university (before I was born) and took correspondence courses after I was born (imagine that, not bringing your screaming child into classes -- it has happened). She worked fulltime as well, and yet still managed to write a note in my lunch, or take me to sports, or smack my butt raw if I stepped out of line (and I did, and she did ;D)

I believe our undoing is not the schools, or the children, but the relationship that our culture seems to think is not only normal but healthy to maintain with your children. Fix that, and I believe we'd all see a big jump in normalcy.

 

[PMedMoe]

I don't think that anyone can convince me that having five years of high school will make a student "ready" for university.  There are people at 16 who can look after themselves and others (my daughter babysitting her younger sisters comes to mind) and people at 25 who can't do their own laundry or prepare a simple meal that doesn't come frozen in a box.  Everyone matures at different rates. 

Maybe not letting a child start school at the age of five (or four) when they obviously aren't ready would make a difference.  I know I was one of those (birthday in March) that turned six before the kindergarten year ended.  In my class we had a girl who turned five just before the end of the year who still sucked her thumb.  Imagine my indignation to be in the same class as a "baby"!

 

[ex-Sup]

Teachers and Professors and Instructors are hamstrung by the system.

This is the crux of the issue. Just like when I was in the reserves, I get orders and I have to follow them. Whether it be curriculum or assessment and evaluation, I do what the Ministry of Ed tells me. It doesn't matter what I think, or if I like it or not; the system is what it is. Probably the biggest issue out there (I see it discussed a lot as a dept head) is the gov't decision years back to get rid of late marks and frown on giving zeros. As an educator I can see the rationale, but it has created huge problems. Kids aren't dumb, they figure things out quite quickly. Some are brutal for handing things in, and especially with my applied class, if I don't hound them, some wouldn't hand anything in and they would all fail (the powers that be would be very unhappy). There is a revised document coming out in Sept and we are all hoping it addresses these concerns.

1) Cell phones and electronic gadgets off; and 2) arrive on time for lecture.

Some are literally addicted; they cannot go a few minutes without texting. It has become a huge problem. With the lates, most of the problem stems from home. Some of these kids have really messed up home lives, which isn't an excuse, but must be taken into account.

Some of the posters have mentioned that the sense of entitlement comes from their parents; I have a colleague who told me the exact same thing month ago. He's close to retirement and flat out told me that his generation is partly to blame for the problem. I don't disagree with him; I'm convinced that parents who had issues in school tend to have kids with the same problem. As one parent told my wife (who's a math teacher), "I can be the ahole dad, or I can be the nice dad. I don't want to be the ahole." Well, there you go!

I have the utmost respect for teachers; it's not an easy job. 

It is extremely rewarding, but also very frustrating at times. Wouldn't trade it for anything (well, maybe if I could be the guy that gets to test build the new Lego sets  ;D).

 

[NL_engineer]

All the focus is on the students, saying there not mature.  Well last time I checked, a child's development in not an internal thing, but an external one.  Society encourages immaturity, look at the things that raise most Canadian/American kids (TV and internet).  Yes their are a lot of good TV programs, but most kids/teens tune into something like what is on MTV.

Parents have a large role to play in it to, but when a child comes from a household were both parents work, they are being raised by things like the TV; wile the child with a stay at home parent is being raised by that parent.

As for University's well I have seen way toooooo (not a typo) many profs that have no real World experience in what they teach, or are on there own little planet.  Vice the college system were the instructors have real world experience, and skip the BS stuff that University's make you do.  I have seen way too many University Graduates that don't have a sweet clue about anything (maybe because there outside the box thinking method said that 2+2=5 65% of the time).

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[BradCon]

I have to agree with the profs on this one.  I was a 30 year old undergrad and just had the worst time at a big university. Many of the people I had class came across as overprivileged  brats, who had never had to do a day of labour ever.

In terms of development, the most often adhered to theory in psychology is that males do not actually finish developing their prefrontal cortex's until the age of 25, which could explain many of my stupid behaviors earlier in my life.  The prefrontal cortex is the region of the brain largely responsible for fore thought and decision making.

In the years prior to my big university days, I attended a few small colleges and found that there was a higher level of maturity among the population I was in contact with, also the environment was much different which may have been a contributing variable. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks it may also be a bunch of Ivory Tower academics trying to bring back grade 13 in Ontario in order to create more for there cohorts.

 

[ex-Sup]

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks it may also be a bunch of Ivory Tower academics trying to bring back grade 13 in Ontario in order to create more for there cohorts.

Not sure where you're going with this, but it ain't going to happen. There is too much invested in changing the curriculum to fit a 4 year model. Also, the gov't saves a crap load of money by not funding an extra year and having less teacher salaries.

 

[logairoff]

Let's give this thread some balance because there is plenty of blame to go around. I think entrance average has nothing to do with any of these problems. A university with a low admission average gives a student a chance to prove themself in University. I assure you that a lot of students do in fact fail/drop out of University before completing a 4 year degree. I have respect for anyone that can complete a University degree anywhere in Canada so let's not belittle that.

I've had this debate many times with friends and have seen it live between teachers and parents. The best line I heard was that teachers have one year of experience 20 times and no one gets a say in whether this one year was a good one or a bad one. The teachers will exclaim well I've done the same thing for 20 years so it must be the students' fault. Well, maybe the problem is that you're doing the same thing every year and aren't adapting/responding to the students you get. We've all had or seen those teachers who are just waiting for their retirment and there is absolutely no passion left. Could the lack of preparedness be correlated with the baby boom generation, more bad teachers being in the system getting older therefore lack of passion? This is just a theory.

We've all had atleast one excellent teacher but we all know/had/heard of many bad teachers that should be fired. Unions are protecting way too many bad teachers. It is way too easy to blame students and society. Teachers and parents should stand up and take some of the blame instead of just throwing it at students.

 

[ex-Sup]

I've had this debate many times with friends and have seen it live between teachers and parents. The best line I heard was that teachers have one year of experience 20 times and no one gets a say in whether this one year was a good one or a bad one. The teachers will exclaim well I've done the same thing for 20 years so it must be the students' fault. Well, maybe the problem is that you're doing the same thing every year and aren't adapting/responding to the students you get. We've all had or seen those teachers who are just waiting for their retirment and there is absolutely no passion left. Could the lack of preparedness be correlated with the baby boom generation, more bad teachers being in the system getting older therefore lack of passion? This is just a theory.

While I appreciate your comments, what I am reading is a lot of theory and “I heard.” I don’t have 1 year of experience, I have 11 years of experience. Teachers need to be learners as well; I can say that I learn new things everyday. I teach history, and while the material doesn’t change, the way I teach it does. I am always looking for new ways to approach each topic, such as the use of technology. That is what we do, with zeal and passion.

We've all had atleast one excellent teacher but we all know/had/heard of many bad teachers that should be fired. Unions are protecting way too many bad teachers. It is way too easy to blame students and society.

I’m assuming you must have had some bad experiences along the way, but I would argue that the opposite is true. Remember that we too were students at some point. There were a few that I can forget, but there were a lot of good ones that really left a lasting mark. Teaching is like any job or profession; we all have our good and bad. But speaking for myself, I work with a lot of hard working, dedicated and dynamic individuals that strive to make an impact on our youth. This is why I firmly believe that this job is a calling; not everyone is a teacher because not everyone can do this job. I bring passion and enthusiasm with me to work everyday, whether it’s in the classroom, on the football field or even just in the hallway. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be doing this job.

Yes, everyone has their share of blame. But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation. I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes. I can state this because I have the credentials and experience to back it up. Until I see more than an empty profile and hearsay, I’ll treat opinions for what they are.

 

[c_canuk]

my thought son the matter...

blame belongs to everyone

The parents:

For not putting the time and effort into teaching their children proper respect for adults.

For well as coddling them and keeping them from any and all responsibility for the consequences of their actions

For changing the focus of our society onto teaching children that they are special little snowflakes and all of society revolves around their happyiness, rather than teach them to be responsible for their own happiness while participating in making society better for everyone.

The Government:

For cutting teacher's pay, resulting in teaching being considered a less desired position in society, which means a lot of the people who do teach, shouldn't. And those that should be end up assuming a lot more responsibility than they should have to and get burned out.

For allowing the PC crowd to take over the institutions and continue to perpetuate the myth that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

The Administrators:

they tend to be some of the most foggy minded immature people I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, crippled initiative and lack of logical thought and foresight.

For example a friend of mine is a teacher, he was pulled in unpaid on his weekends to attend some guys new plan to retool the NB Education system, he wants to eliminate all classes not centered around University, he thinks that the future is all university... thats right, lets take away freedom of choice and force everyone down the path of university... mean while all white collar jobs are being outsourced to other countries, and our entire blue collar workforce is on the cusp of retirement. Never mind that some people aren't cut out for university and now won't have anything to fall back on. Never mind that it is perfectly honorable to want to work with your hands as an Electrician, Plumber, Mechanic, Wood Worker, Machinist and these skill can all be taught to an appretice level perfectly well within the time people will spend in high school

The teachers: Some of them are great, some of them are abysmal, and some just don't care anymore.

The universities: They've become service providers, not bastions of higher learning. Emphasis on quality education is gone, it's all about the bottom line these days.