Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[The Bread Guy]

Good discussion.  While there may be, as in any group, a few weiners out, good teachers/professors are worth their weight in GOLD!

How about these as other factors to consider?

1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?

 

[Infandone]

While I appreciate your comments, what I am reading is a lot of theory and “I heard.” I don’t have 1 year of experience, I have 11 years of experience. Teachers need to be learners as well; I can say that I learn new things everyday. I teach history, and while the material doesn’t change, the way I teach it does. I am always looking for new ways to approach each topic, such as the use of technology. That is what we do, with zeal and passion.
I’m assuming you must have had some bad experiences along the way, but I would argue that the opposite is true. Remember that we too were students at some point. There were a few that I can forget, but there were a lot of good ones that really left a lasting mark. Teaching is like any job or profession; we all have our good and bad. But speaking for myself, I work with a lot of hard working, dedicated and dynamic individuals that strive to make an impact on our youth. This is why I firmly believe that this job is a calling; not everyone is a teacher because not everyone can do this job. I bring passion and enthusiasm with me to work everyday, whether it’s in the classroom, on the football field or even just in the hallway. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be doing this job.

Yes, everyone has their share of blame. But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation. I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes. I can state this because I have the credentials and experience to back it up. Until I see more than an empty profile and hearsay, I’ll treat opinions for what they are.

So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?

 

[NL_engineer]

So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?

Did you read the whole 3 pages?  Because I recall he has/someone else explained both off those in another post.

 

[ex-Sup]

So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?

I was referring to the label they are given and that it is somewhat erroneous.

Did you read the whole 3 pages?  Because I recall he has/someone else explained both off those in another post.

Hmmm, not reading everything....where have I seen that before?

 

[Infandone]

I was referring to the label they are given and that it is somewhat erroneous.

Maybe you could word it better next time.

"But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation," directly contradicts "I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes."

 

[ex-Sup]

Maybe you could word it better next time.

"But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation," directly contradicts "I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes."

But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven't created any lazy or entitled indivduals (at least not knowingly...I set fairly high standards). I also know enough to say that all students are not lazy or entitled. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes.

Is this better? Once again however, I was referring to the title and how it generalizes. I didn't view it as contradictory, or I wouldn't have written it.

 

[ex-Sup]

1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?

I'll get back to you in a bit Tony.

 

[Infandone]

But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven't created any lazy or entitled indivduals (at least not knowingly...I set fairly high standards). I also know enough to say that all students are not lazy or entitled. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes.

Is this better? Once again however, I was referring to the title and how it generalizes. I didn't view it as contradictory, or I wouldn't have written it.

Yeah that's good, but "in my experience, the majority of students today are hard workers" would be better.  >

 

[ex-Sup]

1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

I’ve been fairly lucky to work with some great admin, especially the current group. They shut down the BS pretty quickly (this is assuming you’ve done your job ie. calling home, etc.). I have witnessed/heard of some waffling at all levels (teacher, admin, board), which can be deflating. I’ve been lucky to only have a few scrapes with parents over the years, and I’ve rec’d awesome support. Ironically, the few that come to mind are from football….interesting. If you are doing your job properly, then most of these complaints don’t have a leg to stand on. As I mentioned in a previous post, most of the waves are caused by those who have some sort of previous issue with school, authority, etc.

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?

Now I’m a bit out of my lane here, but most I would venture they receive little. I can only remember one prof I had at LU had a B.Ed. I’m not saying that a teaching degree automatically makes one better, but I would imagine that it has got to help. Most profs are there to do research and teaching is something that comes with the job; I think this why there are a lot of sessional lecturers out there. That being said, I did have some great profs, even if they are not trained teachers. However, there were some that limited their “instruction” to reading the text. There are good and bad everywhere; like I said before, some are not cut out to teach. The profs that do a better job are probably more comfortable and have a natural inclination to do the job.

 

[ex-Sup]

Yeah that's good, but "in my experience, the majority of students today are hard workers" would be better.  >

Everyone's a friggin' critic! I'm trying to mark tests while I do this 

 

[Lil_T]

yeesh - this is going to be my oldest in another 5 years if he doesn't smarten the hell up.  I take my responsibility very seriously.  I go to every parent teacher, I try to work with his teachers to work out a plan to help him out.  I have sat down with him on numerous occasions trying desperately to get him to understand what he's learning.  This "new math" by the way is the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

I do blame the administrators. If my son is not grasping the subject matter and isn't meeting the outcomes he should, then he should fail the year.  Is there shame in failing a grade?  Sure - but sometimes it's the kick in the butt a kid needs to get it in gear.  I will admit, when I was in grade 10 I didn't take school all that seriously.  Skipped class, did very very little except in a couple of classes.  Guess what?  I failed the grade.  So when I had to repeat grade 10 the following year I worked twice as hard and didn't skip class at all.  Lesson learned.  Nothing quite like watching the majority of your friends - people you've known since you were 5 - leave you behind senior year.  Do I want that for my son?  Of course not.  But he is lazy and doesn't want to do the work that's required.  Because of that, I've got no qualms whatsoever about him failing a grade.  I've basically told his teachers to fail him if he's not getting it.  But they keep pushing him along.  I know he's screwed if he decides to go to university.  He has no study skills and there's little I can do short of duct taping him to a chair with the books in front of him.  Mind you, he'd actually have to bring the books home first.

It's an aggravating situation. The administrators carry out these hare-brained ideas.  The teachers' hands are tied to do anything in opposition to the boards.  The students (some of them) take advantage, and the parents are often left wondering WTF just happened? I fear for his post-secondary future.  I feel like I failed him, even though I've done everything I can, short of doing the work for him.  There are some places I will not go as a parent and that is one of them.  I will not be that crazy mother phoning the Dean because he's failing something. 

How to stop this sense of entitlement among post secondary students?  To quote the title of another post on army.ca      LET THEM FAIL!  It's not nice, but it gets the point across.

 

[ex-Sup]

LET THEM FAIL!  It's not nice, but it gets the point across.

This has been my point all along. It's the system, and who influences the "system," us; society. It is the voters/taxpayers in ON (or wherever) that control what happens. Someone pointed the finger at teachers, and that it starts with us. I don't set policy, politicians do. I only follow the rules that are set out for me.

As a side note, I failed Gr.11 math. Nothing special, I just sucked at math and didn't work as hard as I needed to. The only thing I ever failed 

 

[Lil_T]

As a side note, I failed Gr.11 math. Nothing special, I just sucked at math and didn't work as hard as I needed to. The only thing I ever failed 

I failed grade 10 Math, and it was one of the classes I actually went to and worked at.  Went to summer school and had no mark below 100.  Go figure.

 

[ballz]

Now I’m a bit out of my lane here, but most I would venture they receive little. I can only remember one prof I had at LU had a B.Ed. I’m not saying that a teaching degree automatically makes one better, but I would imagine that it has got to help. Most profs are there to do research and teaching is something that comes with the job; I think this why there are a lot of sessional lecturers out there. That being said, I did have some great profs, even if they are not trained teachers. However, there were some that limited their “instruction” to reading the text. There are good and bad everywhere; like I said before, some are not cut out to teach. The profs that do a better job are probably more comfortable and have a natural inclination to do the job.

I don't want to push the wrong buttons here, but I've found as the student and as a tutor to my friends sometimes, that the ability to teach is hardly something that can be taught. I'm not sure what material gets covered in an education degree, but I'll explain my lack of faith in it like this.

When I was in elementary and junior high (so 95% of these teachers had an education degree only), I couldn't stand most of my teachers, as teachers (not as people). And no, I didn't have to deal with their teaching ability, or lack thereof, a whole lot, because I've always gotten things pretty easily. But it's frustrating to sit there with your peers and they don't get something and the teacher is too incompetent for the most part to make it make sense for them. I've seen people struggle and fail, not because of their own lack of effort or involvement, but because of the teacher's lack of ability.

Now move to high school, it was a lot harder to find somebody that couldn't teach. They all have education degrees, AND another degree. Does this mean they are more competent individuals? Well, it's not the be all end all of it, but it certainly points in that direction. Why is it that they're ability to teach was so much better? They only had bachelor's in education, just like the elementary and junior high teachers, but yet they're ability to teach was way better (even if it wasn't the subject of their degree, aka the science teachers usually taught something at the grade 11 level that wasn't their major).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is, I don't think an education degree qualifies one to be a teacher.

So when it comes to prof's, most of them I've dealt with are very competent (I've only found one out of 15 now that I would question) and able to teach, even though they lack an education degree. They're definitely better than the elementary and junior high teachers I had to deal with who DID have an education degree.

 

[mediocre1]

This has been my point all along. It's the system, and who influences the "system," us; society. It is the voters/taxpayers in ON (or wherever) that control what happens. Someone pointed the finger at teachers, and that it starts with us. I don't set policy, politicians do. I only follow the rules that are set out for me.

As a side note, I failed Gr.11 math. Nothing special, I just sucked at math and didn't work as hard as I needed to. The only thing I ever failed 

With duee respect, super and this oone is not aimed at you. There are lots of factors  that takes one too long to mature. Sometimes, their parents are to blame. For me there are no bad parents. But if you spoil your children chances are it would be late for him/her to maature.

There are people who attend Sunday school. A large percentage of them mature fast.

Sometimes peer groups are the cause of late maturity. I belong to this group. It tookk me 45 years to mature. Now I am very conscious of my behaviour especially in this Country Canada where everyonoe should be very-lawabiding or else your future becoomes bleak.

 

[chris_log]

With duee respect, super and this oone is not aimed at you. There are lots of factors  that takes one too long to mature. Sometimes, their parents are to blame. For me there are no bad parents. But if you spoil your children chances are it would be late for him/her to maature.

There are lots of bad parents out there. Lots.

There are people who attend Sunday school. A large percentage of them mature fast.

Sometimes peer groups are the cause of late maturity. I belong to this group. It tookk me 45 years to mature. Now I am very conscious of my behaviour especially in this Country Canada where everyonoe should be very-lawabiding or else your future becoomes bleak.

Huh?

I don't want to push the wrong buttons here, but I've found as the student and as a tutor to my friends sometimes, that the ability to teach is hardly something that can be taught. I'm not sure what material gets covered in an education degree, but I'll explain my lack of faith in it like this.

When I was in elementary and junior high (so 95% of these teachers had an education degree only), I couldn't stand most of my teachers, as teachers (not as people). And no, I didn't have to deal with their teaching ability, or lack thereof, a whole lot, because I've always gotten things pretty easily. But it's frustrating to sit there with your peers and they don't get something and the teacher is too incompetent for the most part to make it make sense for them. I've seen people struggle and fail, not because of their own lack of effort or involvement, but because of the teacher's lack of ability.

Now move to high school, it was a lot harder to find somebody that couldn't teach. They all have education degrees, AND another degree. Does this mean they are more competent individuals? Well, it's not the be all end all of it, but it certainly points in that direction. Why is it that they're ability to teach was so much better? They only had bachelor's in education, just like the elementary and junior high teachers, but yet they're ability to teach was way better (even if it wasn't the subject of their degree, aka the science teachers usually taught something at the grade 11 level that wasn't their major).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is, I don't think an education degree qualifies one to be a teacher.

So when it comes to prof's, most of them I've dealt with are very competent (I've only found one out of 15 now that I would question) and able to teach, even though they lack an education degree. They're definitely better than the elementary and junior high teachers I had to deal with who DID have an education degree.

Tutoring a few friends does not make you qualified to discount education degrees. Teaching in the public school system is frustrating beyond all imagination, I'm sure ex-Sup can attest to that. As per what was mentioned earlier, the vaste majority of teachers are good educators but are hamstrung by the system they work for. An education degree teaches you the skills you need to be a teacher and educate people; if a teacher is not familiar with the material they are teaching then that's a different issue. If a history teachers does not know the history they are teaching, that's not the fault of their education degree.

I'm not sure what material gets covered in an education degree

You quite obviously don't, I'm afraid.

 

[ballz]

An education degree teaches you the skills you need to be a teacher and educate people; if a teacher is not familiar with the material they are teaching then that's a different issue. If a history teachers does not know the history they are teaching, that's not the fault of their education degree.

First off, my personal experience and knowledge does qualify me to discount an education degree. I don't need any formal qualifications to form or voice an opinion.

You quite obviously aren't understanding what I'm saying. Nothing I said had anything to do with knowing your material, it was solely about where the ability to teach stems from, and I don't think it's from post-secondary education. I don't say that because I've tutored people, I say it based on all my experience. Somebody preferring come to me after school, who's in the same grade as them, rather than go to the teacher's classroom and ask the teacher, isn't bad evidence though.

In Alberta, they keep track of how each teacher's students perform on their Diploma exams. The school administration gets to see it, schools get ranked based on them actually (and it's published every year). It's an entirely standardized exam with a standard curriculum, there's not a whole lot of curve balls that can be thrown.

I had a Social Studies teacher who had a history degree and an education degree teaching my grade 12 level social studies course, this was her second time teaching it. She was brutal. No doubt in my mind she knew the material, but she was a terrible teacher. She'd put up the slides at the start of class to the end of class, and we're lucky if she said 20 words. She never elaborated, never asked questions, never brought in any material that might encourage us to ask questions. There were no assignments, just to "do the questions at the end of the chapter" and she would take in every 2nd or 3rd set and mark them, hand them back, and never go over any of it. Basically, she didn't even bother to encourage anybody to think.

Low and behold, we were the 2nd class to have sub-par results on our diplomas, and proof of it is that she no longer teaches grade 12 level courses.

She knew the material, it was simple stuff (fascism, communism, socialism, and free market), and she had an education degree, but she was still a bad teacher, despite her education degree.

Some people just aren't good teachers, and some people just are. Whether they have an education degree or not has seemed to have little effect on it from my personal experience.

If my opinion doesn't hold enough weight with you to consider it, that's fine. Don't tell me I'm not qualified to have one.

 

[chris_log]

First off, my personal experience and knowledge does qualify me to discount an education degree. I don't need any formal qualifications to form or voice an opinion.

You quite obviously aren't understanding what I'm saying. Nothing I said had anything to do with knowing your material, it was solely about where the ability to teach stems from, and I don't think it's from post-secondary education. I don't say that because I've tutored people, I say it based on all my experience. Somebody preferring come to me after school, who's in the same grade as them, rather than go to the teacher's classroom and ask the teacher, isn't bad evidence though.

In Alberta, they keep track of how each teacher's students perform on their Diploma exams. The school administration gets to see it, schools get ranked based on them actually (and it's published every year). It's an entirely standardized exam with a standard curriculum, there's not a whole lot of curve balls that can be thrown.

I had a Social Studies teacher who had a history degree and an education degree teaching my grade 12 level social studies course, this was her second time teaching it. She was brutal. No doubt in my mind she knew the material, but she was a terrible teacher. She'd put up the slides at the start of class to the end of class, and we're lucky if she said 20 words. She never elaborated, never asked questions, never brought in any material that might encourage us to ask questions. There were no assignments, just to "do the questions at the end of the chapter" and she would take in every 2nd or 3rd set and mark them, hand them back, and never go over any of it. Basically, she didn't even bother to encourage anybody to think.

Low and behold, we were the 2nd class to have sub-par results on our diplomas, and proof of it is that she no longer teaches grade 12 level courses.

She knew the material, it was simple stuff (fascism, communism, socialism, and free market), and she had an education degree, but she was still a bad teacher, despite her education degree.

Some people just aren't good teachers, and some people just are. Whether they have an education degree or not has seemed to have little effect on it from my personal experience.

If my opinion doesn't hold enough weight with you to consider it, that's fine. Don't tell me I'm not qualified to have one.

Your previous post completely discounted education degrees. Being a tutor or having been a student in a bad teacher's class does not give you any qualifications to discount this type of degree.

An educational degree does, in fact, set you up with the skills needed to be a teacher. Like any degree, these are only skills that need to be honed through experience and continuing education for the teacher. There will always be bad teachers, but for the most part they do a good job within the VERY restrictive constraints of the public education system.

People aren't 'born' teachers in the same way people aren't 'born' leaders.

 

[Burrows]

With duee respect, super and this oone is not aimed at you. There are lots of factors  that takes one too long to mature. Sometimes, their parents are to blame. For me there are no bad parents. But if you spoil your children chances are it would be late for him/her to maature.

There are people who attend Sunday school. A large percentage of them mature fast.

Sometimes peer groups are the cause of late maturity. I belong to this group. It tookk me 45 years to mature. Now I am very conscious of my behaviour especially in this Country Canada where everyonoe should be very-lawabiding or else your future becoomes bleak.

I'd really like for you to explain this.  As far as I and some others can tell, you're being anti-canadian.  Based on your previous posting history - this is a conclusion I am not hesitant to draw.

Consider this an official request.  Failure to clarify the true intent of your post will result in your future here becoming very bleak.

Regards,

milnet staff

 

[ballz]

Your previous post completely discounted education degrees. Being a tutor or having been a student in a bad teacher's class does not give you any qualifications to discount this type of degree.

An educational degree does, in fact, set you up with the skills needed to be a teacher. Like any degree, these are only skills that need to be honed through experience and continuing education for the teacher. There will always be bad teachers, but for the most part they do a good job within the VERY restrictive constraints of the public education system.

People aren't 'born' teachers in the same way people aren't 'born' leaders.

No, it didn't "completely discount education degrees." I said it quite clearly that the point I was getting at was "I don't think an education degree qualifies someone to be a teacher." And I stand by that and don't see how that "completely discounts" an education degree. I just think we need to raise the standards to which we hire teachers.

I'm not trying to say that teachers are born and that its just black and white like that. However, certain people will NEVER be able to be good teachers just like certain people will never learn to be good leaders. A large part of it is the hard-wiring you have, and that cannot be changed.

In sports and other areas of life, everybody seems to realize and accept that there are some people that can work as hard as they want all their life and they will never be good enough because they weren't born with the right skill sets. They accept that you need to be born with a certain level of talent to make it to the NHL.

For some reason, people aren't as ready to accept that it's the same with education. People suggest "if you work hard enough, you can learn it" and it's completely false. I can understand why a teacher would instill that attitude in a pupil, but to look back at it and believe it is just naive.

EDIT: Okay I'm gone completely off the topic now. Just to clear up, I don't think these problems we're complaining about are the teacher's faults, not in the least bit. More than happy to get back to the real topic.