Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled

[Michael OLeary]

I'm not sure that more kids today are applying themselves less, but let's bring this back around to the initial point of this thread. In my generation kids tried to stay below the radar when they were choosing to be under-achievers. Today, some seem to want all the attention and rewards due their more diligent peers in spite of being under-achievers. Perhaps it's just the whiny minority skewing the results, but the waves they are making stand out against the societal background noise.

There's also the factor that repetition in news media and online appearances tends to make anything appear larger than it is in reality.  That, however, doesn't mean an identified issue doesn't exist, only that the representation of scale may be wrong.

 

[Signalman150]

Logairoff, don't be quite so shocked; and, since ex-Sup actually works on the education side of things, you might want to cut him a bit of slack.  Unless you've taught professionally, he likely has some practical experience with this issue you don't.

I teach as well, tho' I don't have ex-Sups 'time in'. Perhaps what he is saying (and ex-Sup, feel free to correct me) is something I mentioned in an earlier post.  It is NOT that the kids today are 'hard-wired' to be lazy etc. so much that our system of education as devolved to the point where there is no requirement for them to learn. Current educational systems, both in grade school and post-secondary have decreased their requirements and expectations to the point where students don't have to--and therefore often don't--put in as much effort as their predecessors.

The program I teach has a 50% pass mark! This has been mandated to a great degree by society generally in its "everyone gets a ribbon" mentality. But society's mandate has been incorporated into legislation. My program did NOT have a 50% pass mark a few years ago, but provincial legislation has changed that, just as provincial legislation has decided that kids that can't DO math will still pass math. This in not opinion; I have experienced this first hand teaching post secondary education.

And, true to what M O'Leary just alluded to, there is no need for students to be bashful about not applying yourself, because students in their high school experience know that all that is required is an appropriate amount of whining, or getting their parents involved to get their marks bumped up. High school teachers are under fire by parents who want their children to get good marks regardless of effort. Those same teachers are more likely to cave because it is VERY unlikely they will get support from their superiors--right from principals on up to the Education Minister.

 

[ex-Sup]

Do you see the error you are making? You say some are like this and some are like that and then you make a huge leap according to your own experiences you've had in school in painting todays generation with a huge brush as apathetic. I'm honestly very shocked that you keep making this error in your posts esbecially since someone in this thread has already called you on it.

Well it seems to me that your putting your own spin on what I'm saying. And no, if you read my response to that "called out" post, there might have been some confusion with the wording (which I thought was fine), but there was no contradiction.
My response stated that there were lazy, under-achieving kids back in my time, but there is a different attitude today. The same type of student today feels that they deserve to be rewarded despite their lack of effort. I think Mike said it best in response. I have never generalized; if I say something like there is apathy in today's youth, I always clarify my statements with "some." I can understand if I made a blanket statement and left it that, but I always explain and back up what I say. The fact (yes, fact, because I see it everyday) of the matter is that there are some issues with today's young people. Not all, as there are some that are the antithesis of the stereotype. However, even they can display the aforementioned characteristics. That is the reality of today's education system and it's very frustrating. Despite your insinuations (please correct me if I err), I'm not out there to punish, belittle or make my students' lives difficult. I became a teacher because I love the job; I enjoy working with young people and I want them to be successful in and out of the classroom.
Blunt isn't my preferred style, but frankly, from what I've read, you have some sort of axe to grind and there is a definite bias in your writing ie. many "bad" teachers out there. Everything I've written comes from my many years of experience in the profession; if there is an issue with what I have to say, clearly it is yours. And while we're at it, if we're "calling out" people, maybe a filled-in profile would validate what you have to say. I'm not hiding behind anything!
**editted for a spelling/grammar

 

[ex-Sup]

Logairoff, don't be quite so shocked; and, since ex-Sup actually works on the education side of things, you might want to cut him a bit of slack.  Unless you've taught professionally, he likely has some practical experience with this issue you don't.

Signalman, thanks for the back up. You make some great points. Unfortunately my back gets up over some of these issues.
I like you're comment about the 50% idea; it has become our societal menality that 50% is good enough in school to get by. As was pointed out to me at some PD I once attended, 50% doesn't cut it in society. Could you imagine only knowing 50% of the driving requirements? 50% of what you teach kids? 50% of the material from basic, or what you need to know in Afghanistan? Kinda scary when you think of it that way. Definitely food for thought.
**BTW, if I haven't said it before, I don't make policy, politicians do. Just in case I might be confusing people or contradicting myself again :

 

[Another Mom]

Let's not forget  though, that there is vastly more to be learned nowaday than  there was even 25 years ago.  The subject of my friend's graduate thesis in 1976 was in my daughter's high school science textbook.  Statistics has become crazy hard with the advent of computers.  As there will ever be, some kids are slackers, some work hard.  I still have great faith in the youth of today; they just go a little weird for awhile. Most of them get back on track.  I like the Chinese saying "The wildest colts make the best horses."

As per grades: 50% or 70% or 100% is arbitrary. The test is designed easy or  hard based on what the expected normal curve will be. If you get 10% of the Saturday NY Times Crossword correct, you are a genius. If you only get 10% right on  (easier) Mondays, you are well, not so bright. You haven't suddenly lost language ability by Saturday. or become smarter each Monday if you get 100% of that puzzle correct.

 

[ex-Sup]

As per grades: 50% or 70% or 100% is arbitrary. The test is designed easy or  hard based on what the expected normal curve will be.

Well, yes and no.
I guess my point is that a student's grade normally reflects mastery of the subject material. 50% is not acceptable in many instances ie. the example In used with driving. In real life, we would keep repeating a task until we got 100%. This is assuming that the "bar" for your task is immovable and your time variable is flexible. Unfortunately, in the education business, time is the immovable factor; thus it is the bar that gets moved. Therefore students are moving on without complete mastery, which is an issue down the road. It is convoluted and complicated problem which there are not many easy answers (and another completely separate issue).

 

[Another Mom]

ex-sup: The reverse is also true: Kids that are ready to move on have to mark time until the rest of the class is ready, sometimes leading to behavior problems because they are bored.  As per grades. I think the 100% mark just means the test was not hard enough. In school  the bright kids get lazy if they can get 100% without much work and so they get cynical. There is no such thing as complete mastery. Even 100% on a driving test might mean the person took the test on a day without traffic in perfect conditions. Doesn't mean they can drive in snow or bad traffic on the highway or when  tire blows. 100% breeds complacency and false  confidence. It is good to know what we don't know.  (I would guess that even 100% on a test for a skill used in Afghanistan does not mean there is no room for talking about improvement or exceptional cases when a higher skill level would be required.)  It is a complicated situation.  Sometimes "A" students in a class with more brilliant students get a B or C, because the teacher cannot give out too many As.  That has it's own problems, too. I still think it is better to be challenged than move to a school where the grades are easier. (And Univ admissions know about these individual schools and this problem anyway.) And I still think that in an ideal world, grades would not count as much as more thorough feedback.  But we have to have education for the masses with wide variations in ability.  My hat off to you for a difficult role.  And we have not even talked about inadequate support for kids with special needs, esp "invisible" needs.

 

[ex-Sup]

This was sent by one of my colleagues to the entire staff. From Saturday's Globe.

We pretend to teach 'em, they pretend to learn

But why should we be shocked at this low-effort, high-reward mentality? Take a look at what official education policy has done to secondary schools, and weep.

Universities typically point the finger at high schools for turning out lousy graduates. But they're pointing in the wrong direction. As one assistant high-school principal explained on Cross-Country Checkup, the CBC's national phone-in show, last Sunday, "We get our marching orders and our mandate from the provincial government. We are judged by our completion and graduation rates. That's what governs us, not what universities want."
In order to boost their high-school graduation rates, many provinces have mandated a no-fail approach. Nowhere is this policy more entrenched than Ontario, where schools are under intense pressure to get their numbers up. "Our hands are tied," said another caller, an Ottawa high-school teacher. "The government does not allow you now to give zeroes for work not done. If you give a kid 10 assignments and he does three, you can't give him a zero for the other ones. The government stance is that this is a behavioural problem, and you need to give them another chance to hand it in. If a student cheats on a major exam, you can't give them zero. The government doesn't tell you what to do the second time he cheats."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090417.wcowent18/BNStory/specialComment/

Hmmmmmmmm...

 

[Lil_T]

Oh wow.  That is SO ridiculous.  These policymakers deserve a swift kick in the wang.

 

[ex-Sup]

These policymakers deserve a swift kick in the wang.

:rofl: Can I quote you on that?

Seriously though, the whole late marks/zeros issue is probably one of the biggest hot-button issues in high schools today. Most teachers feel that they are being handcuffed by policy and are being prevented from teaching important "life" lessons ie. you need to meet deadlines or else! Most teachers are at a loss in terms of what to do, and it tends to generate huge discussions when it comes up at workshops and PD sessions. I know for myself it is source of immense frustration, especially since the kids know how to work the system (and that they’ve always been pushed along, because they can’t fail). For example, my next class is my Gr.10 Applied History. They are nice kids, but they’re brutal at handing things in on time. I just did their mid-terms marks last week and I was shaking my head at the amount of assignments some kids are missing. I have to hound them, give them new copies of the assignment, put up charts to show them what they’re missing and then hound them yet again. If I don’t do this, most of them would fail (and the powers that be wouldn’t like that). However, in the end (what the article doesn’t say), is that they WILL get zeros. We are only supposed to assess them on what they do, but if they don’t meet an expectation (ie. handing in the required work), they can’t get a grade for it. The official line is “that zeros should be used with extreme prejudice, and only after all other avenues have been exhausted.” They are strongly suggesting “no,” but leave it up to “teacher discretion.”
The current policy is under review, with a new document expected in September. I have had an opportunity to give my input as a dept head at my school and everyone is hoping to see some changes happen. The current working document is simply a collection of material from a variety of sources, and the goal is to create a unified K-12 policy. It can be found here (late/zeroes on p.43):
http://www.ocup.org/resources/documents/EDU_GS_binder_010708_BMv2.pdf

 

[Lil_T]

:rofl: Can I quote you on that?

Yes.  ;D

As a parent I am SO frustrated by these stupid policies.  My 13 year old is in grade 7 right now - there are courses where he is "just passing" which to me, means he's failing.  He rarely does his homework.  Even more rarely brings a book home.  Screws the pooch in class all the time.  There is only so much I can do - frankly I am past the point of wanting to help him since he has no desire to help himself.  He's a smart kid and has a great capacity to learn.  He just chooses not to.  I've gone so far as to ask his teachers to fail him and they just tell me they can't do it.  I fear for his future.  How is he going to be able to hold a job if he can't expend a little effort?  How will he wade through all the crap that life dishes out if he never learns how to deal with criticism or failure?  He'll never be able to fill out a job application - his handwriting is abysmal.  Not just the cursive but simple printing too.  He should have failed 2 or 3 grades ago. 

When I addressed these issues with his teachers (UCDSB & HRSB) they blew me off.  Acted like my concerns weren't valid and even went so far as to say that "cursive writing isn't important anymore, it's ok though, he knows how to read and type".  WTF?  I don't want my son's education to atrophy more than it already has, and I am freaked about the idea of my youngest starting school with such a bleak outlook as it is right now.  Something's got to give.  I would homeschool them both but I lack the time and patience to be able to pull that off with my sanity intact.

I feel I should start writing letters to my MPP and MP.  UGH.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I took a look at the marking guide for an assignment my Gr 11 daughter brought home.  15 bonus marks for completing the assignment on time.  WTF!!??  Whatever happened to failing for late assignments?

 

[Michael OLeary]

As my son went from school district to school district, and province to province, with each posting, I saw a wide range of schools and teachers.  He started school in New Brunswick, and we home schooled him for his second year after he actually lost ground on literacy skills we had developed with him before his first year. (And that was in an era of "you want to home school, ok, good luck .... curriculum, no we don't release that to anyone.")  Later, in an Ontario school, I met a teacher who sadly told me I was the only parent to visit on parent-teacher night, and the only one she didn't need to see.  I've argued the impotence of "whole language" with teachers in three provinces, usually getting agreement and shrugs that they couldn't do anything about it.  In Nova Scotia, I argued against a local property tax levy for a school trying to set up a computer lab with donated equipment because they had no plan for instruction, maintenance or development; yet trustees thought this was a credible 'way ahead'. The absence of consistency in expectation, or learning goals, for the students was demoralizing at best and insanely frustrating at times.  I always knew the teachers were are trapped by the system as the student, but where does it end?

 

[Michael OLeary]

In related news :

Accepting rejection
High-flying Harvard students get tips on how to rebound from the inevitable 'thanks but no thanks'

Article link.

CAMBRIDGE - They have managed to get into one of the world's most selective colleges. Opportunity is knocking at their door.

But at some point in their life, though perhaps later than most, Harvard students will face the stinging slap the rest of the world feels regularly: rejection.

The dirty secret is out. Harvard students fail sometimes. They are denied jobs, fellowships, A's they think they deserve. They are passed over for publication, graduate school, and research grants. And when that finally happens, it hurts. Big time.

To help students cope, Harvard's Office of Career Services hosted a new seminar last week on handling rejection, a fear job-seekers are feeling acutely in the plummeting economy. The advice from panelists could have come from a caring, patient parent. No rejection is the end of the world, they said, even though it might feel that way at the time.

More at link.

 

[PMedMoe]

Pretty bad when a university has to offer a seminar about handling rejection.  Something most of us have experienced throughout our lives.  :

 

[JBoyd]

Pretty bad when a university has to offer a seminar about handling rejection.  Something most of us have experienced throughout our lives.  :

Usually by Grade 8 or 9, when trying to ask someone to the winter dance . Seriously though... how do harvard students not experience rejection before they enter post-secondary institutions?

 

[ex-Sup]

Pretty bad when a university has to offer a seminar about handling rejection.  Something most of us have experienced throughout our lives.  :

That's what happens when the "experts" in our society determine that things like failing are too detrimental to their egos, etc. Just like the parent who went ballistic on me for kicking his kid off the football team; I was going to scar him for the rest of his life. The first words out of his mouth were "he has a disability!" (ADD). Well, we have plenty of kids around here that have ADD and they're not getting in trouble EVERY day. As well, they're not a pain in the ass at practice ie. I can't do the drill because my ankles hurt...well tie up your flippin' shoes for Chr#@t's sake!
Somedays I wonder if I'll make it another 19 years :brickwall:

 

[Gunnar]

how do harvard students not experience rejection before they enter post-secondary institutions?

Wonder if Obama has the course?  It might be useful to POTUS.

 

[Greymatters]

That's what happens when the "experts" in our society determine that things like failing are too detrimental to their egos, etc. Just like the parent who went ballistic on me for kicking his kid off the football team; I was going to scar him for the rest of his life. The first words out of his mouth were "he has a disability!" (ADD). Well, we have plenty of kids around here that have ADD and they're not getting in trouble EVERY day. As well, they're not a pain in the *** at practice ie. I can't do the drill because my ankles hurt...well tie up your flippin' shoes for Chr#@t's sake!
Somedays I wonder if I'll make it another 19 years :brickwall:

Well, any parent would be upset if their kid got kicked off, most people need to be able to walk away from a situation with their head held high (regardless of whether they deserve to or not)...

 

[ex-Sup]

Well, any parent would be upset if their kid got kicked off, most people need to be able to walk away from a situation with their head held high (regardless of whether they deserve to or not)...

Greymatters,
I'm a bit confused by the comment...not sure where you're coming from.
You're right though, a parent would be upset, but at who? My first reaction  as a parent is to question my child as to why they were kicked off and see what they have to say (this was how I was brought up). It's not that I wouldn't believe my own kid, but there is always more to the story. If I did call for clarification, I wouldn't immediately tee off and start making excuses ie. he has a disability! I know from my own experiences (and those that I work with), coaches/teachers/etc. don't have an axe to grind. I do this because I love to do it, and I'm not out there to pick on students/athletes (despite what people may think); I have better things to do with my time. Going to the point of removing a student from a team is something that is done with extreme prejudice and after every other avenue has been exhausted (in 10 years of coaching, this is the only time it has happened). In this particular situation, the student gave me no other option and basically made his own bed. For a month and a half he got into trouble in the classroom almost everyday and causing nothing but problems on the field. My coaches were at their wits end and I was tired of repeatedly warning him. I gave him tons of opportunities to redeem himself but in the end his demise was of his own doing. I hated doing it, but I had no regrets; the team is bigger than one player.
As a side note, this particular student is now in Gr.12 and still a pain in the ass. One of my colleagues teaches him next door to my office when I am on my prep time; we've actually tried to count the number of times he gets yelled at in a period for disrupting the class. And apparently, his parents are still defending him and making excuses. As I've said before, the apple doesn't fall far...