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Peaceniks Try Direct Mail on Vandoos Destined for AFG

We haven't disappeared.

A couple of the people who usually respond in English are out of town, or busy at work. We'll be back online soon, probably by Saturday or Sunday. We're looking forward to continuing this discussion and we hope you are too.

----
VALCARTIER 2007
C.P. 55051, 138 Saint-Vallier Ouest, Québec (Qué) G1K 1J0
418 208-7059 * info@valcartier2007.ca * www.valcartier2007.ca
 
Valcartier,
You are welcome back anytime......as for that other condescending stooge...... :deadhorse:
 
NIMN,

I try very hard to be polite, it has actually kept me alive a couple of times so I think that I am fairly good at it. You, however, test me.

As the good Trinity has already pointed out, you do not bring facts or valid points, you bring opinion and diatribe.

Do I believe in "Western domination of the world"? Ummm, actually, no I do not. I BELIEVE that we, in the 1st World, have a responsibility to help those less privileged then us. I KNOW that there have been too many times that the international community has sat on the sidelines and done absolutely nothing to stop unmitigated crap from happening to innocent people.

You do not like war. Fine. Neither do I (and I have actual experience to back up that opinion. How about you?). You don't like the US. Fine. Neither do I (as a political entity of course, the people are no worse or better than anyone else on the planet), but I do like many of the US Marines and Army members that I have worked with over the years. There are more than a few countries/political groups that I do not agree with, but I'm not going to get insulted if I can not get them to agree with me. That, for want of a better word, is juvenile. None of us care how old you are, your qualification for being tagged as "Sunshine" comes from your reluctance to realize that what you are spouting is YOUR OPINION and not irrefutable fact.

For all your protesting of not being "particularly nasty, or belligerent, or insulting" you certainly were. To all of us that wear the uniform of the CF. And you meant to be. I'm just really curious to know where the heck you get off calling into question our values and that's ok, but when we challenge yours, it's no longer fair game? You want debate? Fine, bring it. But bring facts, bring case studies, from a variety of sources. When you post a comment from someone, post it all, don't take it out of context.

We ask you for a solution, you have none. Shocking. We have a solution. You don't like it. Shocking again.

I am a "doer", you will find that many of us here are "doers." It is not enough for us to sit back and bitch and whine about stuff we don't like, we joined so we could help people. You don't seem to want to "do" anything. If you did, you would have a plan, or at least an idea, a concept. But you don't. I'm really not sure why I'm wasting anymore bandwidth on you, must be my compassionate side. You just keep protesting the evil Western World (without a plan to make things better), and I'll keep protecting your back.

Oh, and just one final point: "the disastrous situation YOUR PATRON POLITICIANS AND HAWKISH INTELLECTUALS CREATED FOR THE WORLD." ummm, just to let you know, those are your politicians, not mine. Speaking of the current situation in A'stan, it was the very left-leaning Liberals that sent us there. Where were you then? Just ask most CF-types on their opinion of the Liberals since PET and you may be surprised, they were certainly not our patrons.

Did you vote in the last federal election? I did. I suppose that would be very anti-anarchist of you though. Good luck on changing the system from outside.

Wook
 
Not In My Name said:
Sunshine!!?? How old do you think I am?

Not in My Name

Like I said, why waste time with attention seekers like this. At least this oxygen thief has been silenced on here by his own demise. He gave himself enough rope, and did the merry jig, just like Saddam! NIMN had hidden agendas. That was obvious.

Is this war wrong? Well maybe so, but going about it the way NIMN did on here, it just ended up biting him in the arse. I don't mind peoples opinions, we all got them. None of us on here are war mongers, and merchants of death, but he paints us all as brainwashed robot zombie storm troopers with a death wish, and the west (yes his/our Canada) as a terrorist org. That is simply shyte!

I knew what his style was and I did not bite. I got more important things to do (like sitting on the toilet) when it comes to posters of the substandard quality that this so called 'man' has demonstrated in the small number of posts he created.

Might have to have a CC and ginger when I get home, ha!


Cheers,

Wes
 
Why is it so hard for our enlightened friends above to understand this??

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/227225
EDITORIAL
TheStar.com - comment - Aid won't work without arms
Aid won't work without arms
Jun 20, 2007 04:30 AM
A report on the murder of a Canadian aid worker in Afghanistan last summer should give serious pause for reflection to Canadians who think this country's combat role there should be ended and replaced by aid and reconstruction work.

Mike Frastacky, a Vancouver carpenter, was building a school in northern Afghanistan when he was hauled from his bed, tied up and shot after a terrorist leader gave the order, "Kill the infidel."

A report on the incident by Afghan security investigators reveals that his death was a planned, political murder rather than a random act of violence. He was killed because he was doing reconstruction.

This is the threat that every aid and reconstruction worker lives with, and their situation seems likely to become more dangerous as the Taliban becomes more violent in its efforts to regain power.

On Sunday, a massive explosion ripped through a busy street in Kabul, killing dozens of Afghan civilians and police and wounding many more. The terrorists vow to continue such attacks on aid workers and civilians on a "daily" basis.

These events emphasize the importance of a continued combat role for Canada and its NATO allies in the Afghan war. They also emphasize the reality that without the continued effort to take the war to the Taliban, aid and reconstruction will be impossibly dangerous. Indeed, they would become pointless because abandoning the war means handing Afghanistan back to a Taliban dictatorship.

Maintaining Canada's will to fight that war, however, is certain to grow more difficult as casualties mount. Already, 56 Canadian soldiers have died in the war and the Taliban's campaign is becoming more violent as it grows more desperate. As casualties rise, political and public pressure to disengage from Afghanistan is likely to increase in Canada.

There are indications that the terrorist groups operating in Afghanistan are experiencing difficulty in finding recruits among Afghans themselves and have been replenishing their ranks with Chechens, Uzbeks and Arabs. That may be an extension of the war, but it is not one that should discourage Canada. It is more importantly a sign that war against terror there is working, that Canadian combat troops are slowly succeeding in making Afghanistan safer so aid workers such as Mr. Frastacky can eventually do their jobs without fear.
 
what with all the talk of formal education, the obsession with "facts" vs. "opinion", what's with that?
  :rofl: I can't believe that he actually posted that! :rofl:

If my comrads feel there is anything to be gained from sticking around here, I will gladly let them do it,

So much for complete anarchist equality.  Get that the rest of you "comrads"?  The great NIMN has deemed it permissible if you wish to cary on the conversation.::)  Is it just me or does anyone else get the mental image of a petulant Louis the 14th waving a handkerchief at his courtesans?  :king:
 
Good riddance to that guy. I hope we can still debate with Valcartier though, they actually make points rather then going on about how awful western society is etc.
 
Well I am confirming to you right now: I believe soldiers are ensnared in a transe-like [sic] conformity, but no more and no less that the general population.

I find it interesting how often this comes up.

When confronted with intelligent, passionate, and well-educated soldiers, the common response from the soi disant educated activist community is to accuse these selfsame soldiers as being brainwashed zombies who believe what they believe not because of rational thought and first-hand experience, but because they are the poor mindless tools of the evil forces that run the world.

It is a dehumanizing tactic: "I can ignore your devastating evidence that explicitly refutes my position because you are less than human".

If the irony was any thicker, we could s\bolt it to the underside of a GWagon as mine protection.

DG
 
are you sure they didn't get mailed directly from the PQ offices?

PQ MNAs refuse to applaud soldiers
Resulting remarks set off raucous debate

Kevin Dougherty
CanWest News Service

Thursday, June 21, 2007

QUEBEC -- The Quebec National Assembly erupted into shouting matches Wednesday after some Parti Quebecois members refused to stand to applaud seven Afghanistan-bound Canadian Forces officers, an action Health Minister Philippe Couillard called "pathetic."

The soldiers were taking in Question Period from a legislature balcony and they were there as news broke that three more Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan Wednesday.

PQ house leader Diane Lemieux, who did applaud, angrily called on Couillard to withdraw the remark, setting off a 10-minute procedural debate and shouting matches across the floor.

Rising to answer a question on another matter from Bernard Drainville, the PQ health critic, Couillard ended his answer by added his views on some PQ members, including Drainville, who did not stand to applaud the officers.

"I would like to comment on something that I saw at the beginning of Question Period which seems to me regrettable, pathetic.

"There is a group of military personnel from the Royal 22nd who are with us today, who are going to represent Canada overseas and risk their lives," Couillard said.

"They were saluted by most members of the National Assembly, except for an important group who remained seated."

Lemieux insisted her colleagues did salute the officers, even if they did not all stand. "One can express one's solidarity in several ways," she said.

But she also took a shot at Couillard, referring to the four years he worked in Saudi Arabia setting up a neurosurgery service in Dhahran, accusing Couillard of "going abroad when the [health] system [here] was in difficulty" and doing so "to make money abroad."

The turmoil ended when Speaker Michel Bissonnet called a timeout of about 30 minutes to review tapes of the debate.

After the timeout, Couillard withdrew his remarks.
© The Vancouver Sun 2007
 
Ah hell, see what happens when you take a night off from the forums. Ok a little late but still after all the amusement he’s provided us here it seems only fitting to give NIMN a proper farewell. Besides odds are he’s lurking here still. 8)

So mod hat off and target to your front, and ….

Sunshine!!?? How old do you think I am?

In physical years or intellectual?

This is very patronizing.

And what would you call the verbal diarrhea you’ve been spouting here?

I started to write on this forum last night in a spirit of dialogue, but now it seems that anything I might write will be ridiculed, turned on it's head, used against me, etc.

Actually I don’t think you needed our help to have your words and thoughts ridiculed. They seem to be quite capable of that on their own.

It is obvious that I am not going to change any one's mind here (I didn't think I would from the start) and that was not really the point. Most people here just don't want to hear the arguments we're making. It's all crap to you and that's the end of it; there is absolutely no openness on your part. So much for coming straight to the dragon's Den.

Actually we do want to hear your arguments. We’ve been open and polite. Case in point your fellow traveler Valcartier2007 has remained within the confines of grown up debate and is still welcome here. As for the crap part…. Well I think that has pretty much covered itself here.

I don't think I was particularly nasty, or belligerent, or insulting at all.

If you say so, I’d say there are plenty of posts here to the contrary.

Yet you have all chosen 1) to distort pretty much everything I wrote to make me look bad,

Really you consider a concise examination of your arguments and a presentation of counter arguments backed by factual evidence as opposed to dragging out tired old slogans distortion. I have to get a copy of whatever dictionary you use.

according to your dearly held values (anything I wrote was bad a priori; even saying that military types are generally conservative was construed as an insult, for God's sake!); 2) ignored all valid points I have made - mainly about you serving first and foremost Western domination of the world (as if Canada was not part of NATO, was not the US' main ally, was not apologising for Israels' crimes, was not a colonial power, etc.) - you could only resort to weak sarcasm about these central arguments - (if you seriously believe that Western privilege is legitimate and has been legitimately acquired, it's worse than I thought, I had assume that some of you would be willing to concede at least as much); and 3) accused me of all sorts of evil that I know have nothing to do with my personality. I guess it's more convenient to demonise your opponent.

Oh where to begin with this one? Ah why bother. You’d fail to get the point and the others here already get it. You did get one thing right though. We do have dearly held values.

Well, I came here hoping for dialogue and was treated like crap, simply because I happen to hold a completely different set of beliefs than most of you.

No it was more like when began acting like a petulant five year old throwing a temper tantrum at the dinner table because you didn’t want to eat your Brussels Sprouts.


Now, we will see which way the wind blows in the next weeks and months. I can assure you that your beloved mission will turn sour, one way or another.  Take my word for it, soldiers. That is inevitable. It's beyond me that you can't recognise this.
Hey if you know something about what’s going to happen over there of here, please feel free to share it, or is this just wishful thinking on your part.

You're all for democracy, you say, well you'll have to abide by it when the Canadian people want this bullshit war to stop.

Correct if the legally elected Government of this Country carrying out the wishes of the people tell us to go we will. Hopefully that will not be until the job is finished, but we will see.

Unless, a terrorist attack happens on Canadian territory... wouldn't that be convenient for war profiteers. Or another "terrorist plot" is uncovered. Or anything that can justifying staying in Afghanistan for years to come.

Dude stop watching Michael Moore videos. Seriously you almost sound like you want them to hit us. Of course I’m sure that you only prefer they killed and maimed us bad Canadians and not enlightened progressives like yourself. Sorry it just does not work that way.

Yet, I can't help but notice that no one really seriously denied or debunked any of my main criticism.

Really? And just what colour is the sky in your world?

Again, just a see of sarcasm. Why? And why are you so hostile? One could interpret this as negative acknowledgement.

Actually sarcasm is a long used and effective military weapon, as is the use of spellcheck, but I don’t think you got that.

A lot of you, most in fact, were busy cornering us on the after-war issue, cause you know full well that it's maybe our only real weak spot. It's nearly impossible to come up with an alternative solution to your military occupation, the disastrous situation YOUR PATRON POLITICIANS AND HAWKISH INTELLECTUALS CREATED FOR THE WORLD.

Actually I thought it was more like we stated we have a job to do there and will leave only when it is finished versus your argument which appears to be leave now and well whatever happens after that…..um we’ll get back to you on it.

There you are, if that can flatter you're camouflage-clad egos: you won. You can stay in Afghanistan for 20-30 years, how about that? That's a sustainable approach. It will definitely serve democracy ans insure our security. That's logical. Then, when angry young men come from from Pakistan or Pashtun country to blow stuff in Toronto or Montreal, you can "liberate"  these territories too, bring democracy there, why not. This is manifest destiny.

There are so many places to "liberate" still. The whole world needs the Canadian military to fix it. You guys go on walking the walk!

We've said it before and we will say it again: this is a vicious circle, and you're feeding right into it.

We won, oh goody I’ll go out and buy myself a bigger hat to accommodate my inflated ego because I won a debate on the Internet with some putz who in the words of Sean Connery brought a knife to a gun fight.

BTW if meaning staying “there” or some other place for 20-30 years means that “it” does not come here, then that’s a sacrifice the men and woman here are willing to take. We’ve been in other places longer.

Perhaps a read through our history would show you that. Feel free to take a visit to the CWM in Ottawa anytime, believe it not there are some here who would not consider it a waste of time to guide you around it and try and explain who we are and why it has been necessary to do what we have had to do over the past several generations if not longer.

Failing that you can just crawl back into the hole of selfish self righteous denial you have created for yourself. Don’t’ worry better men and woman than you will ever be will continue to ensure the freedoms and security you take for granted are maintained.

On the other hand, you've been trained to follow orders and shut up. You've been trained to kill too. Unless I'm wrong about this also? You're paid to serve and obey; it might be easier in these conditions to actually believe all the bullshit they feed you. It's understandable, in a way. Again, I'm speaking to all the ones who felt compelled to aggressively blast me here. I do not think that all soldiers are the same.

Don’t flatter yourself there skippy. No one was compelled to come on here and tear you a new one and most here have (until now) shown great restraint.

You may think I'm full of crap, but after today's experience I can honestly say that many of those who assaulted me here fit this unflattering description as well.

Speaking personally I’ll take an insult from you mon ami as a compliment.

I don't think any less of soldiers in general, despite what you might think.

Funny your rather patronizing comment may have us think otherwise.

Even if I disagree with the deployment of troops to Afghanistan, I hope that you all come back alive and well to your families and friends. To those who think I'm being disingenuous about this, insert favoured profanity here. I care about people, whether this fits your preconceived idea of what an anarchist is, or not. I don't like people dying for oil and/or the variety of false pretexts served daily by politicians.

Despite our very obvious differences I’m willing to accept that is a sincere comment and I thank you for that.

This being said, I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing with you here by myself. You can rejoice in your defeating me with your superior intellects and infallible argumentation (many of you seem to have an issue with proving that you are indeed intelligent, what with all the talk of formal education, the obsession with "facts" vs. "opinion", what's with that?). I know that you know these last exchanges here sucked, and they sucked precisely because you consciously disrespected me whereas I was only trying to engage in dialogue. That is the way of the bully.

Yeah sorry with that whole “facts” versus “opinion” thingy we’re funny that way.

I, had no intention to offend anyone here. I believe it is my mere presence amongst you that was found to be offensive.

Not your presence sunshine.

At least I learned one thing: the Canadian military is composed of, intellectualy superior, middle class people with degrees. No underprivileged people has ever been lured in the Canadian Army against the promise of of financial security, no Sir! :-\ This is a myth! Such despicable tactics could never happen in Canada, the perfect country. (Excuse the sarcasm, it appears to be contagious... time for me to leave here.)

No the men and woman of the Canadian Forces are composed of a variety of people from all walks of like, cultures, and socio economic groups. When they take their uniforms off they have the same dreams and concerns as the rest of the country's citizens, wondering about their mortgages and taxes. Will their favourite team make the playoffs? Planning for their children’s future. They do however share a bond which unfortunately despite our numerous attempts to explain it to you here, you seem incapable of understanding, and that is your loss.

And yes it is time for you to leave.
 
Valcartier 2007: What about the unanimous extension last September of the ISAF mission by the UN Security Council?  It certainly was no tool of the US regarding Iraq.  And surely Canada should take heed of the UNSC?
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8826.doc.htm

Even the Toronto Star, in its own editorial today, gets things right:

Giving Afghans a chance
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/227712

...
Canada has provided 2,500 troops and a $1.2 billion aid package to help the Afghan people emerge from decades of foreign occupation, civil war and, in recent years, Taliban rule. Every extra day that President Hamid Karzai's democratically elected government is given to affirm its authority is a day of hope for the Afghan people.

Canadian troops are striving to buy Afghan democrats time by preventing extremists, who want to topple the government and turn Afghanistan back into a launch pad for terror attacks, from regrouping.

Despite Afghanistan's desperate poverty and social chaos, the Afghan army and police are slowly growing stronger. Girls go to school in many areas. Communities rebuild roads, medical clinics, water systems, hydro lines and other basics. Kids can fly kites again. While the Taliban will not fade completely from the scene, their insurgency has been disrupted. They have been reduced to intimidating small villages, planting bombs and making videos in the desert.

Here at home, pressure may be building to pull Canadian forces from Kandahar when their current combat stint draws to a close late next year. At that time, Parliament will be right to debate thoroughly whether to extend the mission beyond early 2009, taking into consideration such issues as whether Karzai is making sufficient progress and whether Canadian aid is getting to those who need it most.

But on the dusty back roads, Canada's troops can take pride in knowing that the nation honours them for serving in a decent cause, giving Afghans a chance to build a better future.

And the military situation may be rather better than you think--even the Taliban seem to think so:

Canadians in action in Afstan/Taliban's terrorist tactics
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/06/canadians-in-action-in-afstantalibans.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Ah, man...I finally have time to make a decent reply to V2007 and about 8 pages have been added since then...  all my comments would be redundant.

Good read though - there is a demonstrated difference between V2007 and NIMN.  No loss with departure of NIMN.

 
WARNING: The following paragraph is silly:

I  was thinking about this debate this morning. I thought maybe if we put in simpler terms it will be easier to see why those who support the mission do so.
Let's say you live in a nice neighborhood. You drive a BMW, go to the gym and have big biceps. You know a kid called Afa Ghani. He's poorer then you and less educated, but has a strong will and a good sense of humour. You think he's a nice fella. Then this kid called T. Ali Ban beats him up and eggs up his house. Do you go and kick T. Ali Ban's ass and then never check with Afa Ghani again? Hell no! Your going to go see him again to make sure he's ok, maybe walk him to school or help him paint his house.

I know it's silly...but can we not apply what we would do as good natured humans to a world context? Can we not help the Afghans rebuild their country, without people feeling that we're only there for our own motives?

Please note: I am not a soldier or a member of the CF (Yet). I support the war in Afghanistan though, and this is just my opinion as a limited observer. I'm sure CF personnel who have served in Afghanistan can explain much better than I, yet I just thought I'd take a stab at it.
 
Hmmm....  no. Simpler is preferred, but your example doesnt demonstrate the severity of violence being suffered over there py the general public at the hands of fundamentalist and criminal elements.  Think more in terms of "this guy and his gang shot up our house, and then, etc...

 
Yeah, but you have to admit, it's a really good stab at it by a civvy.  Don't you think?
 
Greymatter I know the violence is much worse, I was just trying to paint in a day to day setting. Basically just to prove that if someone told you not to help Afa Ghani from getting his ass beat everyday, you'd think they were a little strange lol. But feel free to sub in egg for RPG and machine gun, and paint for sandbag.  :)

Thanks xena.
 
It’s a good stab at an analogy yes but not quite there. I also would not put Canada in the body builder, BMW owner category as far as nations states go. It may be nice but we ain’t there. I think we’re more the Honda Civic and occasionally go jogging before swimsuit season type.

The general idea is true though, this is not rocket science. If you see an injustice or wrongness being committed do you not have a moral obligation, not a right, an obligation to try and right it. What applies at the individual personal level also holds true in the larger global community. FDR's famous "garden house" statement to explain Lend Lease to the US public prior to the US entry in the Second World War holds true, it's simplistic yes but true.

There was a post on the forums earlier today re a recent incident on the Montreal Subway system where transit employees did not intervene in an incident where a man was physically assaulting a woman. The excuses reasons given were interesting “not our job”  “too busy” and sometime about “union rules” as I remember it.

To me that is a basic breakdown at the lowest level of our society. I’m not necessarily advocating vigilante justice here with the transit employees actively intervening, although two were supposedly security guards so one would presume they have the skills sets to do so, but to say you’re too busy to even dial 911. Come on give me a break.

What applies to us a society applies at all levels. Whether it is intervening as individuals to stop a crime, or as a nation choosing to help another nation in it’s time of need, and who incidentally cried out for that help.
 
DaveTee said:
Thanks xena.

I said it was a good try.  Not perfect.  Don't let it go to your head.  :D

If/when you get to Basic, you'll find out that your absolute best is never good enough!  But there's more about that on other threads.

Back to the regularly scheduled debate...
 
hahaha I won't, I realize it was far from perfect! Just thought it would illustrate the point that Danjanou made much clearer. We (the more fortunate countries) do have an obligation to help those who need it. This isn't colonialism or "white man's burden" as was previously stated. It's just being a good citizen on a world scale.

Also...when I get to basic...my opinions go in the backburner lol. But I think I've got about a year to let them out. I should be all out of things to say by then.  :P

EDITED SPELLING
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Why is it so hard for our enlightened friends above to understand this??

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/227225
EDITORIAL
TheStar.com - comment - Aid won't work without arms

Qu'est-ce que hell?  Did I suddenly fall into some kind of wormhole and end up in Bizarroland where the RED STAR is writing this?  :o

Or is the fog lifting?
 
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