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17thRecceSgt
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moclyke said:
The same reason we are picky on who we let be firefighters.
If, when you think of that, you can't see what I am getting at, let me now. I will be more detailed.
New PT Test Requirements...Thoughts?
- Thread starter Clarkey
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The same reason we are picky on who we let be firefighters.
If, when you think of that, you can't see what I am getting at, let me now. I will be more detailed.
I can see what you are getting at, but please be aware of the fact that training to become a firefighter is also intense. I think if one decides to AND completes said training they are qualified in becoming a firefighter. No one is born a firefighter, they can be trained. I'm not giving excuses to people who think they don't have to work to be a firefighter OR be in the Canadian Armed Forces, I'm only saying everyone should get that chance. It's not like the Army is handing out a list saying everyone on it can be in the military. There IS training and there IS hard work and I'm saying everyone who makes it out the other end has the right to be in because they've earned it.
I will never understand how people can judge other people and think they are immediately not good enough to enlist based solely on the fact they cannot meet the PT standard. I know most personnel in this forum think that they are not working as hard as you did to get in. We're not "gods among men". We're dogs. And dogs did not learn to sit on their own.
I will never understand how people can judge other people and think they are immediately not good enough to enlist based solely on the fact they cannot meet the PT standard. I know most personnel in this forum think that they are not working as hard as you did to get in. We're not "gods among men". We're dogs. And dogs did not learn to sit on their own.
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I think the flip side of that moclyke is that the CF is not asking for a super human or even a high athletic standard. If I recall correctly, the VO2 max score needed to pass the step test is on the cusp of poor and fair by age group and gender. As I indicated in my previous post, my buddies who have done little physical exercise in years, some of whom are in their late 30s or early 40s managed to achieve the minimum standard in 9 weeks from light/moderate exercise (their routine was essentially 1 set of pushups, situps per day, 5 days a week, + 3 runs a week). The CF isn't asking for much.
Being a soldier in any field carries thepotential, if not the necessity for some trades, to be physically demanding on a moments notice. While waiting for my interview yesterday I was talking to a reservist who had been in A'stan. He was telling me about being woken up in the middle of the night to rocket fire and having to run to a bunker. He wasn't in a combat arms field, but he still needed to be able to run. He still had to carry around his flak armor and tac vest from time to time. He was called upon to do some heavy lifting to help out. None of which was relevent to his trade, but that's life in the army.
The judgement stems from two things, in my opinion:
1) Since the CF isn't asking for much, what does it really say about somebody who isn't willing to invest 6-10 weeks of their own time to be prepared for service? There's no cost involved to the applicant, other than thier time, perhaps 4-6 hours a week. If this person isn't willing to invest 40-60 hours getting ready to do something easy, then what sort of soldier will they be when they're being asked to do something hard or something that's really miserable? I think the men and women in uniform know that answer because they see some of them everyday. The MIR commandos, the whiners, the lay-abouts, the "do the bare minimum" types.
2) A lot of times the people who complain about the PT standard make excuses, e.g. "I don't have enough time to practice pushups" and/or whine about it, e.g "I'm not going combat arms so why should I have to do this?". Again this speaks to character. Does the CF need the whiners who can only see within the context of their trade? Does the CF need people whose default position, the core of their personality is one which breed excuse making?
I don't think ultimately the judgemental nature of what you see is about being able to lift sandbags all day, it is about the type of person who is willing to bleed and sweat a little to be in the CF, and the lack of character of those who don't.
Being a soldier in any field carries thepotential, if not the necessity for some trades, to be physically demanding on a moments notice. While waiting for my interview yesterday I was talking to a reservist who had been in A'stan. He was telling me about being woken up in the middle of the night to rocket fire and having to run to a bunker. He wasn't in a combat arms field, but he still needed to be able to run. He still had to carry around his flak armor and tac vest from time to time. He was called upon to do some heavy lifting to help out. None of which was relevent to his trade, but that's life in the army.
The judgement stems from two things, in my opinion:
1) Since the CF isn't asking for much, what does it really say about somebody who isn't willing to invest 6-10 weeks of their own time to be prepared for service? There's no cost involved to the applicant, other than thier time, perhaps 4-6 hours a week. If this person isn't willing to invest 40-60 hours getting ready to do something easy, then what sort of soldier will they be when they're being asked to do something hard or something that's really miserable? I think the men and women in uniform know that answer because they see some of them everyday. The MIR commandos, the whiners, the lay-abouts, the "do the bare minimum" types.
2) A lot of times the people who complain about the PT standard make excuses, e.g. "I don't have enough time to practice pushups" and/or whine about it, e.g "I'm not going combat arms so why should I have to do this?". Again this speaks to character. Does the CF need the whiners who can only see within the context of their trade? Does the CF need people whose default position, the core of their personality is one which breed excuse making?
I don't think ultimately the judgemental nature of what you see is about being able to lift sandbags all day, it is about the type of person who is willing to bleed and sweat a little to be in the CF, and the lack of character of those who don't.
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Mud Recce Man said:
I always did hate that term. Some people treat it as the joke it is, an old tradition that Sgt-Majors carried on. It was funny at first, but once you see friends with legitimate injuries like broken legs or arms or even leukemia grouped under that category, it stops being funny. Too many times those with injuries gained from the line of duty are grouped with those who are known to be shirkers and malingerers.
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Dogs have the inate ability to sit when desired, the thing about dogs is to sit on command.
The physical standard is simply that - a standard. If you do not meet the standard then either train up to that point and reapply or pass go and collect your $200 (I think the loan is 200 too, if I remember correctly). You can gripe about the CF losing out on prospects but the other side of that coin is that those people, because of their failure to meet or exceed the standard, are missing out on the CF.
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This is to rcac-011
My son is far from being a failure and in no way a loser or he wouldn't be where he is today, honey.You have a really poor attitude dear...have you considered seeking councel? By the way your dog didn't die...he escaped.
My son is far from being a failure and in no way a loser or he wouldn't be where he is today, honey.You have a really poor attitude dear...have you considered seeking councel? By the way your dog didn't die...he escaped.
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govenor_mac said:
Yes by definition your son is a training failure.He failed to pass the physical aspect of the BMQ course.I don't consider my attitude poor,infact all my PER state the opposite.I just have a amazing low tolerance for people who sugar coat things.As for seeking council I don't understand why I would.Last time I spoke to councillor's was returning from overseas and they said I was good to go.But thanks for your concern.As for my dog I had to get rid of it due to a biting problem.She was fine until she reached the age of two,then began becoming aggressive towards strangers.Having a small child I decided to get rid of the animal to protect him.He did not escape as I placed him in a nice grave behind my house in rural Newfoundland.i hope that clears up your misunderstanding about that.Being a wife of two army guys,with children old enough to be in basic I would hazard a guess your plus 40 years old.Start acting your age instead of arguing with a forum of people who obviously know a bit more than yourself.My wife grew up in a army family was in the army herself for a while,yet when I say RAPZ ops she don't know what I'm talking about.Why?because her scope of army knowledge doesn't extend there.As per this subject and yourself.
I myself have a strong stance on this subject.People like this make other young troopers do more work.They corrupt the team setting as they cannot do what the others can,therefore someone else picks up their slack.
I personally don't like the idea but alas I'm a mere junior NCO who has no say in the matter.But Governor_mac,don't think your son will not run into people as on this board.You have people from all walks of life here discussing this topic from reserve sgt's,senior reg officers to people who were seriously wounded overseas.Although some agree with getting guys in shape I think we can all agree that the standards are way to low,and if you cant meet it you shouldn't get a brown paper envelope every 15 days.
govenor_mac said:
That above is an example of a feeble mind personally attacking because it is desperate to respond.Ask your son what he was told when he was re coursed.He is a "training failure" he may be a stand up guy,but that's the basic fact.Hopefully the staff can motivate him to actually meet a sub human standard to progress to better things.I work a mosaic of people I have not seen ANY ever fail an express test from warrants and cpls with 30 yrs in who lived on a diet of pizza beer and cigarettes for the past 25 yrs down to chubby troopers.NEVER.(A few on 13km but never express)
I hope the poor buggers who get hurt etc are not put into a platoon with these guys.That would be horrible for their morale.
Anyone here from CFLRS ST.Jean who can shed some light from the inside on how many cadre will be tasked to do this?restrictions on the "warriors"/messhall/drinking mess privileges?That's what we need is someone who's there to comment.
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My son has went on to prove he is not a failure. He has stuck with it no matter what the cost and went through 6 months of hell in PAT platoon. He did not quit. (almost did but didn't).You do not know my son as a person. He will succeed and will be an asset to the CF. You can quote me on that. When you fall off a horse you get right back up and ride again...get my drift? And by the way there were 14 who didn't pass the test that day. He was one of the very few who stuck it out and is now 4th week into Basic. We are DAMN proud of who he is... what he has accomplished...what he WILL accomplish..... I am 47 and no matter what age a mother is you will not get away with calling ones son a failure.Especially when you don't know them as a person or know the circumstances why they failed in the first place.So you grow up and be a little more understanding as a person.
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governor mac & rcac-011,
Both of you stop right now. Next one that continues this line will go into the warning system, and without looking, I know there aren't many, if any, steps left. Get back on track....now.
Both of you stop right now. Next one that continues this line will go into the warning system, and without looking, I know there aren't many, if any, steps left. Get back on track....now.
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aesop081
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Garett said:
Yeah we know.......was your post suposed to be news ?
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There was no PT test in 1989 but you were tested 3 times in Cornwallis and if you failed you went back 2 weeks and did it again.
To be honest, I do see it doing more good than harm.
Anyone who shows up who isn't fit enough, and who can't get fit enough (after three months on a platoon designed for it) either has a pre-existing medical condition precluding it (another discussion), or will not be able to garner the discipline needed to live a life in the military.
Ive heard and read a lot about fitness boot camps being very good, and that if you can keep the routine up for at least 3 weeks (I believe that is the breaker point most FitPros give for routines), you stand a much better chance of holding that routine down.
Many people in our society (me included) have insanely busy civilian lives where our jobs, school etc, have very little interest in providing time or support for fitness. Its a shoddy excuse, but its there, and does have an impact, whether you want it or not. If we can help people who have a genuine interest in bringing other talents to represent our country in uniform get fit at the same time, all the better. They can get the discipline needed to maintain the program from some of the world's best disciplinarians (the military) , and hopefully they will get over the hurdle and see how great keeping a fitness regimen is that they wont want to let go of it.
Part concern for me here is whether the program will be run too heavily by PSP rather than by uniformed pers, and as a result, how much kicking in the butt will really happen.
If anything, I think ALL recruits should be going through a much more rigorous fitness phase in BMQ. My friend on IAP was just mentioning with this other recruits last weekend that they feel LESS fit, and that if it wasn't for drill, they'd feel that they had regressed terribly in their fitness. My buddy has basically worked out daily for the past two years, so to go from that to organized PT runs twice a week and a few hours with PSP a week..... it hits home.
A final thought: Does this mean they will be course overloading to offset for the guaranteed attrition right after CFXPRESS? Or holding off on assigning recruits to platoons until CF Express is done? Right now, with VRs and medicals in the first few weeks alone WITH the PT test many serials apparently lose many members...
Anyone who shows up who isn't fit enough, and who can't get fit enough (after three months on a platoon designed for it) either has a pre-existing medical condition precluding it (another discussion), or will not be able to garner the discipline needed to live a life in the military.
Ive heard and read a lot about fitness boot camps being very good, and that if you can keep the routine up for at least 3 weeks (I believe that is the breaker point most FitPros give for routines), you stand a much better chance of holding that routine down.
Many people in our society (me included) have insanely busy civilian lives where our jobs, school etc, have very little interest in providing time or support for fitness. Its a shoddy excuse, but its there, and does have an impact, whether you want it or not. If we can help people who have a genuine interest in bringing other talents to represent our country in uniform get fit at the same time, all the better. They can get the discipline needed to maintain the program from some of the world's best disciplinarians (the military) , and hopefully they will get over the hurdle and see how great keeping a fitness regimen is that they wont want to let go of it.
Part concern for me here is whether the program will be run too heavily by PSP rather than by uniformed pers, and as a result, how much kicking in the butt will really happen.
If anything, I think ALL recruits should be going through a much more rigorous fitness phase in BMQ. My friend on IAP was just mentioning with this other recruits last weekend that they feel LESS fit, and that if it wasn't for drill, they'd feel that they had regressed terribly in their fitness. My buddy has basically worked out daily for the past two years, so to go from that to organized PT runs twice a week and a few hours with PSP a week..... it hits home.
A final thought: Does this mean they will be course overloading to offset for the guaranteed attrition right after CFXPRESS? Or holding off on assigning recruits to platoons until CF Express is done? Right now, with VRs and medicals in the first few weeks alone WITH the PT test many serials apparently lose many members...
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Something I just thought about at the gym is the safety aspect.Where they are not tested a civilian who never ever did a day of PT in his life can walk in and start his PT test.What happens if he plain drops dead?I think testing still should be done prior to make sure the BASE fitness is there.If not for the other reasons mentioned,for the safety of the candidate.Even risk of injury from going from zero pt to the test would be quite high.
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Spring_bok said:
Come to think of it I dont recall doing any PT test in 1985 before hitting Cornwallis either... cant say for sure how many times I did them while there, its all kind of a blurr. I do recall doing a lot of running. Although Im not sure if my inability to recall details is due to weariness during the course, current old age, or brain cells killed off by evil living...
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Hey there 099...Gotta say I totally agree with you. I saw first hand the dangers of not having the " base" fitness level. It is VERY dangerous. I started basic back in february, and on our very first PT run on the track, our platoon was just finishing up the last lap or so, when one of our guys ( overweight and out of shape), ended up on the floor with his eyes rolled to the back of his head and blood coming from his nose, one girl suffered a very mild heart attack and the worst one was a fella who, out of shape and overweight, ended up on the floor as well.......barely breathing and having some sort of seizure. He passed away some weeks later after being on life support.
So, yeah...I think people should be at their best, and ready to go when they start BMQ.
So, yeah...I think people should be at their best, and ready to go when they start BMQ.
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Centurian, I remember a medical but no actual PT test when I joined , all those years ago! I remember the PT in Cornwallis as being the best part of the day, and possibly the easiest.
Folks, it's not that we have too low or too high
a standard, it is that society today (and by that I mean the average young people) is at a deplorable fitness standard. My wife read some report that now there is more obese people in Canada then fit people. With that being the norm we definitely need to PT test incoming recruits, and enforce the testing of serving members as well!
At my age I have never "failed" a PT test or a BFT, and in fact usually beat most of the troops half my age! But here in Kingston I have witnessed some of our "slimmer" troops falling out of ruck marches in the first 100m, falling out of express tests at level .5 (not a typo). If we are to demand a standard of recruits entering the system, the very least those of us who are already in should do is hold ourselves accountable to the same standard!
Governor-Mac, your son WAS a training failure, but it's good to hear that he pulled himself up and kept driving towards his goal!
Folks, it's not that we have too low or too high
a standard, it is that society today (and by that I mean the average young people) is at a deplorable fitness standard. My wife read some report that now there is more obese people in Canada then fit people. With that being the norm we definitely need to PT test incoming recruits, and enforce the testing of serving members as well!At my age I have never "failed" a PT test or a BFT, and in fact usually beat most of the troops half my age! But here in Kingston I have witnessed some of our "slimmer" troops falling out of ruck marches in the first 100m, falling out of express tests at level .5 (not a typo). If we are to demand a standard of recruits entering the system, the very least those of us who are already in should do is hold ourselves accountable to the same standard!
Governor-Mac, your son WAS a training failure, but it's good to hear that he pulled himself up and kept driving towards his goal!
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17thRecceSgt
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Probably GDs...how do you like to scrub pots in the messhall? ;D
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