Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[Privateer]

If the executive curl were to be reintroduced, I wonder what this would mean for commodores and admirals?  Would they revert to sleeve rings only (and lose the shoulder rank), or would all the admirals have a sleeve rank that looks like a commodore and keep the shoulder ranks?  I think that to do this properly it would have to be the former.  Perhaps this is what causes angst among the higher-ups:  Loss of uniform rank insignia at the flag/general officer level.

 

[mariomike]

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

Jack Nicholson wore the USN "Cracker Jack" in a movie filmed ( some of it in Toronto ) back in the early 1970's. There was a lady who made a sarcastic remark about the uniform. He told her exactly what he liked most about it! 

 

[tabernac]

As for quadrapiper's question, no executive curl for snotties! That is to say, Portugal is the only country that I noticed where naval cadets (Aspirante) wear "Elliot's Eye". I highly doubt we'll be following their lead in this regard.

When you look at other navies with the curl, it's always with a thick bar. Now consider the rank of SLt. That little spaghetti strap will obviously have to be curled, so by extention, why not NCdts?  It's only logical to have all officers wearing the curl - be it subordinate or commissioned.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Oldegateboatdriver - did your jumper not have a zipper?  I thought the RCN re-designed them in the 50/60s (many years before the RN did the same).  I certainly had no difficulty putting on the one I wore as a sea cadet in the 70s (which had a zipper).  And no, mine was not specifically manufactured for the Sea Cadets.  As I recall, the Tip Top Tailor tag inside said it was manufactured in the late 50s - I thought it was kind of cool to wear a uniform that was older than I was!

We must have been in the Cadets about the same time. I can most certainly tell you that my jumper did NOT have a zipper and was service pattern. Neither did my father's but he left the service shortly after Korea. I seem to remember the summer white jumper having a zipper but I only wore it a few weeks on a gun crew for sunset ceremony. Is that the one you had in mind?

If the executive curl were to be reintroduced, I wonder what this would mean for commodores and admirals?  Would they revert to sleeve rings only (and lose the shoulder rank), or would all the admirals have a sleeve rank that looks like a commodore and keep the shoulder ranks?  I think that to do this properly it would have to be the former.  Perhaps this is what causes angst among the higher-ups:  Loss of uniform rank insignia at the flag/general officer level.

The former (the old sleeve rings only) would be visually more pleasing. I do not think the admirals would complain: If you ever saw a British Vice Admiral walking by with a British Lieutenant General beside him, I can almost guarantee you would be much more impressed with the admiral than the general. Moreover, the current officer rank system, which was kept from unification, used the naval stripes system. Before that, army generals never wore a broad stripe on their sleeves. I think that the consistency of the naval system is such that, even if we went back to the sleeve rings only for admiral, there is enough exposure to the "system" that anyone from the army or air force would easily figure it out: "Gee Sarge! She's got one of them broad stripie and two smaller ones above, would that make her, like two ranks above a Bgen?"

 

[gcclarke]

When you look at other navies with the curl, it's always with a thick bar. Now consider the rank of SLt. That little spaghetti strap will obviously have to be curled, so by extention, why not NCdts?  It's only logical to have all officers wearing the curl - be it subordinate or commissioned.

My guess would be that the issue of how to work the Subbie curl into things will be to place the stripe below the bar and curl. I suppose alternatively we could work it the same way it is done on the mess kit, which is to have no visual indication whatsoever between the two. Or give subbies the bar, and have our "Midshipman" equivalents wear that little white tab thingie they did before the day everyone wore green. And still do in every other Commonwealth navy.

If we follow your logic we should also have all officers receiving salutes, be it subordinate or commissioned. It's all the same, right?  :

The entire point of this motion is to go back to our roots, re-introduce a traditional emblem that we inherited from the RN. I don't think we'll be doing so by giving our NCdts a rank insignia that they would not wear anywhere else in the Commonwealth.

 

[tabernac]

My guess would be that the issue of how to work the Subbie curl into things will be to place the stripe below the bar and curl.

That would be one bastardized looking rank.

I suppose alternatively we could work it the same way it is done on the mess kit, which is to have no visual indication whatsoever between the two. Or give subbies the bar, and have our "Midshipman" equivalents wear that little white tab thingie they did before the day everyone wore green. And still do in every other Commonwealth navy.

I'm a NCdt, not a MIDN. I like my spaghetti strap, thanks.

If we follow your logic we should also have all officers receiving salutes, be it subordinate or commissioned. It's all the same, right?  :

No. The only difference in the current sleeve and shoulder insignia between an ASLt and a NCdt is 1/4 of an inch of gold braid.

Both ranks wear a bar as indicator of rank. Likewise, adding the curl to both would not change anything. One rank entails the possession of a scroll, the other does not; one rank gets a salute, the other does not - seems pretty clear to me.

The entire point of this motion is to go back to our roots, re-introduce a traditional emblem that we inherited from the RN. I don't think we'll be doing so by giving our NCdts a rank insignia that they would not wear anywhere else in the Commonwealth.

That's fine, however it would be something that is distinctly Canadian, while still returning to our roots.

 

[Michael OLeary]

No, "square rig" is a ceremonial uniform. 

Well, that makes it quite simple.  All the Navy has to do is authorize a pattern and then decide to what level it's going to delegate the responsibility to raise the non-public funds to pay for them.

CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS

CHAPTER 5

FULL DRESS AND UNDRESS UNIFORMS
OVERVIEW 
 
1. Full dress and undress are optional uniforms which may be worn on formal occasions. Together with standard mess dress (No. 2 Order – see Chapter 6, Annex B), they form a group of related items which reflect the functional heritage of military organizations. 
 
2. Except as provided in paragraph 3., these optional uniforms are worn at no expense to the public (see Chapter 2, Section 1, paragraphs 24. to 27.). 
 
3. Grants are provided to assist authorized bands and alternative voluntary ceremonial sub-units in maintaining ceremonial uniforms not provided at public expense. See QR&O 210.345, 210.354 and CFAO 210.18. Full dress and some undress uniform items are provided at public expense for RMC and the Ceremonial Guard, Ottawa.

 

[gcclarke]

That would be one bastardized looking rank.
I'm a NCdt, not a MIDN. I like my spaghetti strap, thanks.

No. The only difference in the current sleeve and shoulder insignia between an ASLt and a NCdt is 1/4 of an inch of gold braid.

Both ranks wear a bar as indicator of rank. Likewise, adding the curl to both would not change anything. One rank entails the possession of a scroll, the other does not; one rank gets a salute, the other does not - seems pretty clear to me.

That's fine, however it would be something that is distinctly Canadian, while still returning to our roots.

When I was referring to Midshipmen, I was going by the RN usage of the term vice the USN usage, equivalent to out A/SLt.

As for the rest of it, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and see how things actually play out when the new dress instructions are promulgated.

 

[Neill McKay]

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

The affected members having voted overwhelmingly in favour (in some sort of plebiscite), as I understand it.

 

[ekpiper]

I am actually happy to see the return of the executive curl, although I hope this is the first step to an increase of awareness for the Navy's current plight.  Sadly, however, the new budget has already been presented with no funding specified for new vessels, so I'm inclined to think that new ships will be postponed for another couple years at least.

With regards to the insignia for the NCdt, I think that they will have the curl, styled similarly to the old RN Warrant Officer rank shown here: http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Pers-Warrant%20Rank.htm

With respect to the rest of the system (S/Lt, Adm.), I'm inclined to think that the CF will not change the structure of the insignia any more than by adding the curl.  By that, I mean that the S/Lt will have the curl on the thin stripe, and all Admirals will have a single broad stripe with a circle "curl" just touching the stripe .  Epaulette wise, I think that nothing will change, save for the addition of the curl from NCdt-Capt.

 

[Acer Syrup]

That would be one bastardized looking rank.

Iceland did it....

 

[Blackadder1916]

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

While the actual idiot architect (save Hellyer or his principal toady, Bill 'Leaky' Lee) of the concept for single uniform may never be categorically identified, there was some mention of the officer who accomplished this assignment in a thesis*, a copy of which I found in my office when I retired from the military. (I don't know why or how it came to be in my office, but I kept a copy)

* Varner, Joseph Bruce.  Unification of the Canadian Armed Forces and the impact of Inter-Service Rivalry.  Thesis submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the Degree of Master of Arts in Political Science. Acadia University 1991

from page 40 of the thesis
". . .
    The RCAF even designed the new uniform, which was derived from the USAF officers' dress.  Ed Reyno was responsible for designing and pushing through the new order of dress.  The Minister picked the rifle green colour to make it truly Canadian and then the old uniforms, along with their great traditions, were discarded. 57
. . . "
footnote 57 references  Paul Hellyer's book Damn The Torpedoes: My Fight To Unify Canada's Armed Forces pp. 172-173 and an interview with Mr Hellyer as the source for this information.

The "Ed Reyno" mentioned is Air Vice Marshal Reyno who was Chief of Personnel.

 

[Old Sweat]

Thanks for the additional info. As Chief of Personnel, Reyno supervised the directorate that looked after dress and ceremonial. I remember three things about Reyno, who was a Battle of Britian veteran. First, in 1966 he sat in on a 4 CIBG officers' study group. When asked by the commander to add some remarks, he told the brigade officers that he had been able to solve the RCAF pilot drain by coming up with a retention bonus. The brigade commander, who had as short fuze, opined that he didn't give a .... if every officer in the RCAF got out tomorrow.

Reyno also would have played a major part in the adoption of the automatic promotion to corporal, which I believe was introduced because TB would not authorize a large pay raise for career privates, ordinary seamen and especially leading aircraftsmen and women. It played havoc with discipline, the chain of command and the very structure of the army and I suspect the other services. 

And last, but not least. There used to be a program called the Deserving Serviceman Program in which a very few selected junior ranks who were retiring and spouse were given seats on the air transport global training and resupply flights which flew around the world. There were only a few flights a year, and usually only one or two members went on these flights. Anyway, circa 1971 Reyno was retiring and he and his wife got the deserving seviceman spaces on a 707 flight that was off on a several week west to east circumnavigation flight of the world. (Such a thing would be unthinkable these days, what with blogs, army.ca and other devices that tend to point out sneaky tricks like this.)

Sorry for the hijack, but I disliked him and some of the stunts he pulled intensely. The intervening years have not modified my feelings for the better.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Old Sweat is correct about the bastardization of the corporals and captains being a pay issue.

Most of you weren't even born, but we had a series of fairly sharp recessions in the 1950s that played havoc with the nation's finances. One or two people here will recall 'Dief the Chief's (Prime Minister John Diefenbaker) "austerity programme." It made the "decade of darkness" look positively bright. Anyway, the financial problems were coupled with rampant inflation in the cost of burgeoning new technologies (in every service) and a growing public dissatisfaction with the high levels of peacetime defence spending authorized by St Laurent and continued, relatively, by Diefenbaker and Pearson.

There was, also, a "we support the troops when we're needing them, not when we're just feeding them" feeling about in the country, especially amongst the World War II veterans who were, by then (1960-70), in positions of influence and authority in government and industry.

The defence bureaucracy, intent on building a better educated military, was pushing hard for pay raises; the political centre, under public pressure, would not agree. Military salaries in the late '50s and early '60s were falling father and father behind, making it harder and harder to recruit the people needed - quantitatively and qualitatively.

The 'Hellyer corporal' and the commissioned counterpart the 'instant captain' and their corollaries the CFLs (captain and corporal for life) were the result of a little ill considered bureaucratic sleight of hand that got badly out of hand.

There was a follow-up: 'benchmarking' military occupations with civil service equivalents. That project, which was a real boon to our, military, pay packets, was also ill considered and sloppily implemented.

Good intentions, even the best of intentions in all cases, but second rate staff work - too little analysis of consequences, produced less than optimal results.


Edit: typo

 

[Sailorwest]

I am actually happy to see the return of the executive curl, although I hope this is the first step to an increase of awareness for the Navy's current plight.  Sadly, however, the new budget has already been presented with no funding specified for new vessels, so I'm inclined to think that new ships will be postponed for another couple years at least.

With regards to the insignia for the NCdt, I think that they will have the curl, styled similarly to the old RN Warrant Officer rank shown here: http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Pers-Warrant%20Rank.htm

With respect to the rest of the system (S/Lt, Adm.), I'm inclined to think that the CF will not change the structure of the insignia any more than by adding the curl.  By that, I mean that the S/Lt will have the curl on the thin stripe, and all Admirals will have a single broad stripe with a circle "curl" just touching the stripe .  Epaulette wise, I think that nothing will change, save for the addition of the curl from NCdt-Capt.

I could see that we return to the former rank structure for the dress uniform where there is broad stripe with additional stripes for rear an vice admirals. As for subbies and cadets, my thoughts are that cadets will retain a single thin stripe, with no curl, acting subs will retain the same single stripe, with no curl and subbies will get the single stripe with a curl.

 

[Pusser]

Cheeky Monkey, you do realize that a Midshipman outranks a Naval Cadet don't you?  The rank of Naval Cadet is not new, nor is it simply a naval re-wording of Officer Cadet.  The rank existed in the RCN long before unification.  The insignia of the Naval Cadet was a long embroidered button hole and button.  The Midshipman's insignia was (and still is in the RN) the same button hole on a white background.  As I recall, in their last iteration in the RCN, Naval Cadets were students at VENTURE (the original RCN program, not the current one which dates from the mid-70s) and Midshipmen were graduates who had gone onto the Fleet for additional training before commissioning.  Midshipman in the RCN were equivalent to 2Lts in the Army.  However, they were not commissioned.  At unification, the Midshipman disappeared because the equivalent rank level in the Navy now had to be commissioned as were his Army and Air Force counterparts (no navy in the world commissions its Midshipmen).  This is when the Acting Sub-Lieutenant became a substantive rank.  The Naval Cadet disappeared altogether as it had only had a very limited application anyway.

I don't understand why there is so much speculation on what will happen with the Naval Cadet anyway.  A curl in the thin bar has been authorized for Naval Cadets' mess kit for several years. See page 3A-1-6 in the Dress Manual.  The reason we never actually see it is because very few Naval Cadets actually have mess kit (along with a shocking number of commissioned junior officers who lack professionalism in my view, but that's another issue).

I think putting the half-stripe underneath for Sub-Lieutenants makes a lot of sense and looks a lot sharper than curling the half stripe.  I also think that adopting RCN style sleeve braid for Commodores and Admirals is the best route to go.  They would likely continue to use the current shoulder boards and slip ons for shirts and white jackets (ie. crowns and maple leaves).  This would fit in with the former RCN style as well as the current, RN, RAN, USN, etc style.

Mike O'Leary, when I said that square rig is a ceremonial uniform, I meant that it is a dress uniform (sorry, for poor choice of words), as opposed to a working uniform (i.e. NCD).  If we were to go back to it (which I suspect will never happen), it should be provided at public expense, as is everyone's dress uniform.  We could actually introduce it as a cost-cutting measure, it being a simpler garment and, therefore, cheaper to manufacture! ;D

 

[tabernac]

Cheeky Monkey, you do realize that a Midshipman outranks a Naval Cadet don't you? The Naval Cadet disappeared altogether as it had only had a very limited application anyway.

No, I didn't know that. And I wouldn't be surprised if most of my NCdt brethren didn't know either. In my experience, the history of the RCN isn't something that gets much exposure.

I think putting the half-stripe underneath for Sub-Lieutenants makes a lot of sense and looks a lot sharper than curling the half stripe.

I disagree. And as for the logic, if NCdts get a thin curl, then why not curl the thin SLt bar?

I also think that adopting RCN style sleeve braid for Commodores and Admirals is the best route to go.  They would likely continue to use the current shoulder boards and slip ons for shirts and white jackets (ie. crowns and maple leaves).  This would fit in with the former RCN style as well as the current, RN, RAN, USN, etc style.

Our current sleeve insignia works well for Flag ranks, infact I think it looks quite sharp without the clutter of additional bars on top.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

No, I didn't know that. And I wouldn't be surprised if most of my NCdt brethren didn't know either. In my experience, the history of the RCN isn't something that gets much exposure.

Your refreshingly honest statement about a general lack of knowledge of the history of the RCN reveals a problem that should be fixed.   

 

[Neill McKay]

I disagree. And as for the logic, if NCdts get a thin curl, then why not curl the thin SLt bar?

I've seen a rendering of each, and I must say that the half-stripe with a curl above a full stripe is one mighty odd-looking thing.

Our current sleeve insignia works well for Flag ranks, infact I think it looks quite sharp without the clutter of additional bars on top.

One problem with it is that all Canadian flag officers look like commodores alongside flag officers from any other navy in the world.  Ours is a very unorthodox system of insignia at those ranks, in a world where naval officers' ranks are otherwise almost the same across most navies.

 

[Pusser]

Another argument against curling the sub-lieutenant's half stripe is that it would be a pain to tailor.  The A/SLt has a curled full stripe that would have to be removed and then replaced with a straight stripe.  Then a curled hal-stripe would have to be applied.  When promoted again, the curled half-stripe would have to be removed and replaced with the curled full stripe.  Why not do it as the RCN did (and is still done on mess kits).  Has anybody ever noticed that a SLt's stripe on his/her mess kit is further from the bottom of the cuff than the bottom Cdr's stripe?  That's because the SLt's stripe is sewn on and left in the same location, with subsequent straight stripes added underneath, until promoted to Captain(N) - at which point the officer probably needs a new jacket anyway!