Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[Steel Badger]

Sorry ...you can blame PET for a lot including ushering in the decades of darkness...but the "distinctive" green uniform and approach to a single set of rank badges etc... to it came with Lester Pearson and the architect/designer of the green was the CDS at the time...JV Allard...

Very true! (especially the bit about blaming PET a lot > )

 

[IntlBr]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

 

[WLSC]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

I think it is a good idea for the navy.  It doesnt change a thing but the pip system, it's an other story.  I'm in for 24 years and never saw that here.  Aldo, I know the system.  The actual rank system his good.  Dont change it.

 

[Old Sweat]

Sorry ...you can blame PET for a lot including ushering in the decades of darkness...but the "distinctive" green uniform and approach to a single set of rank badges etc... to it came with Lester Pearson and the architect/designer of the green was the CDS at the time...JV Allard...

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

Allard, who was a large officer, embraced it and appeared in a CF green dress uniform at one of the last ceremonial parades herld by 4 CMBG in North Germany before the move to Lahr and Baden. Suffice to say, he looked like a pale version of Idi Amin, or maybe a Franco Herman Goering. If that does not give you an indication of what I thought about the whole bloody thing, you have not been paying attention.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

Would be great for our friends in the "R"CAF. Why stop there. Even under unification, we in the Navy managed to re-introduce our rank system as it quickly became clear that the "army" ones didn't work for us: A ship with seven Captains!!! That was worse than a Captain with seven children!!! So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ? If the Navy could do it under unification (and it was official in the CFAO's) the Air Force could get it done even now without any Act of Parliament.

 

[Neill McKay]

So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ?

I think the main reason is that the rank names do not fit with the current organization of the air force; there's been a rank inflation of one step in key command positions.

If they were to shift back to their pre-unification ranks they would have wing commanders commanding squadrons and group captains commanding wings.  Squadron leaders would not lead squadrons, and there is no longer such a thing as a "group" in the same sense that there was in the RCAF.

 

[Old Sweat]

Pre-unification as far as I can recall, RCAF squadrons were commanded by Wing Commanders. I believe this also was the case in the later years of the Second World War.

Given the close ties between our air force and the USAF, I wonder how much support there is for a reversion to RCAF ranks.

 

[dimsum]

So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ?

Adding to what N. McKay said, there are also many in the AF who aren't aircrew that may object to being called "Pilot Officer" or "Flying Officer".  However, if you want to lessen the amount of "Captains" onboard ship, reverting back to Flight Lieutenant might be easier (and won't confuse the Navy so much.)  :blotto:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Adding to what N. McKay said, there are also many in the AF who aren't aircrew that may object to being called "Pilot Officer" or "Flying Officer".  However, if you want to lessen the amount of "Captains" onboard ship, reverting back to Flight Lieutenant might be easier (and won't confuse the Navy so much.)  :blotto:

There always were "non-aircrew" types in the AF, even in the days of Flight Officers and Pilot Officers. No confusion in ranks in the Navy: we have always known what you other types are called. Only confusion I ever saw was on the faces of assorted landlubbers at AF bases and Army camps when I simply ignored anyone calling me by other than my proper rank. P.S. Dimsum, with "Flight Lt's" are you proposing the return to the fold of those people now in light blue that are kind enough to accept our hospitality from time to time? 

 

[dimsum]

P.S. Dimsum, with "Flight Lt's" are you proposing the return to the fold of those people now in light blue that are kind enough to accept our hospitality from time to time?

Well, if they spend over half the year onboard a ship...   

To appease the "but we're not sailors!" crowd, perhaps something distinctive like keeping the light blue shirt with the Naval uniform?  keeping the shaggy mane?  ;D

I shouldn't continue with this too much longer; "they" may start to question my loyalty to Big Blue vice Big "Darker" Blue!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

Allard, who was a large officer, embraced it and appeared in a CF green dress uniform at one of the last ceremonial parades herld by 4 CMBG in North Germany before the move to Lahr and Baden. Suffice to say, he looked like a pale version of Idi Amin, or maybe a Franco Herman Goering. If that does not give you an indication of what I thought about the whole bloody thing, you have not been paying attention.

Thank you for the background, as always with this site you will learn something new everyday. Regardless of who introduced it long past due to be rid of the whole sorry idea.

 

[Pusser]

A couple of things to note in the comments above:

The "Wavy Navy" was the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve (RCNVR) made up of non-professional sailors, usually trained at units inland.  Their officers wore wavy rank stripes and the curl was squarish.  The Royal Canadian Naval Reserve (RCNR) was made up of professional sailors (e.g. merchant marine) and their officers' rank stripes were made up of two intertwined half-strips of braid and their curl formed a six-pointed star.  These stripes were sometimes referred to as "cable-link."  The regular (RCN) officers were sometimes referred to as "straight-stripers."  In the 1950s, the RCNR and RCNVR were amalgamated into the RCN(R) and the wavy and cable link stripes disappeared.  The placement of an "R" inside the curl is used in the UK, but I don't believe it was ever used in Canada.  I think we had switched to green before that was introduced there.

The RCN discontinued trade level badges (i.e. the use of stars and crowns to denote level) in 1951 when new Canadian trade badges were introduced to replace the British ones (a Mainguy report recommendation to make the RCN more Canadian).  Thus, everybody from Ordinary Seaman to Chief wore the same badge (with a maple leaf) except in those cases where career advancement meant actually changing trades (e.g. mechanics became artificers).  This practice has been carried into the naval trade badges currently in use.  Interestingly, the Army versions denote trade level.

I don't think the Naval leadership was so much against this intitiative as much as they just see other priorities right now.  The Fleet is on the verge of rust-out.  On the other hand, sometimes little things can do a lot for morale and should be considered.  Sometimes the leadership can forget that.

Doing something just because the Prince asked a question?  It wouldn't be the first time.  There's an entire regiment of the British Army where everyone wears corporals stripes (i.e two of the them).  It all started apparently because Queen Victoria commented one day that one stripe looked a little scruffy on a guard at the palace.  The next day everybody had two and have had them ever since.  The current CF salute actually came from the Navy who started turning the hand forward (vice the traditional Army open-handed salute that he Mounties sitll use) back in the 19th Century because Queen Victoria didn't like to see the sailors' tar-stained hands.

Not that it's really on topic, but I just absolutely cringe when I hear people say "Captain Navy So and So" or "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins."  The ranks are pronounced "Captain" or "Lieutenant" (non-existent "Fs" aside) and "Navy" is not supposed to be said OR written out.  The book says that when it is a naval rank, the letter "N" shall follow in brackets to denote that it is a naval rank.  Nowhere does it say that you say it or write it.  Thus, it should be Capt(N), Captain(N), Lt(N) or Lieutenant(N) and that's it!!!  If you need to tell people that you are a Captain or Lieutenant "Navy" when speaking to them, your command presence is not sufficient for the office you hold.  Minor concessions are allowed for telephone conversations if necessary (e.g. securing accomodations for a Captain(N)).

As for the executive curl, I'm all for it.  I think our regular uniforms should match our mess kit.  I'd also like to see the Army with pips and crowns (although perhaps using something other than the British Bath Star might be in order - a maple leaf perhaps?).  Junior sailors should also be in square rig, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

 

[gcclarke]

The following is best spoken in a nice southern drawl:

Now, is that a "Yes Sir!" Captain, or a "Hey you!" Captain?

People making the distinction when there is no reason whatsoever to do so is probably my 2nd biggest work-related pet peeve. The first being people who say "The HMCS Insert-ship-name-here". If it's Friday in the NCR and you're introducing me, then sure, you might want to specify what element I'm in. But if I'm in uniform, they can bloody well see that I'm in the Navy.

The most egregious example that I've seen was at an NTO Mess dinner, at which awards were being presented for top candidates for various phases in the CSEO and MSEO training. The nice Lieutenant who was making the announcements made sure that he specified that this award, which inherently can only be presented to a Naval Officer, was being awarded to a "Lieutenant(Navy)". This despite the fact that the only two people in the room who weren't in the Navy were the Air Force Image Tech taking the pictures and the Bartender.

Oh, and in those rare occasions where one has to specify verbally, I typically use "Naval Lieutenant". It just sounds less idiotic.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The placement of an "R" inside the curl is used in the UK, but I don't believe it was ever used in Canada. 

It was: I have seen some on display in Reserve Units "mini-museum" display cases. They had the "R" and Canada shoulder badges.

I don't think the Naval leadership was so much against this intitiative as much as they just see other priorities right now.  The Fleet is on the verge of rust-out. 

It should not be a priority for them. I have been around since mid-70's and the verge of rusting out has been the natural peacetime condition of the Canadian Navy since the early 60's. There is nothing the Naval leadership can do about it (except scream at politicians, perhaps!). This comes from an imbecilic procurement system. It may (I emphasize may before someone crucifies me) make sense for the army, for instance, to buy 100 Leo's in one shut. But no self respecting businessman who operates a fleet of 100 trucks with a lifespan of ten years buys them all at one. He buys 10 new ones every year. That is how Navy procurement should operate too. The fleet is 33 ships strong now (or is it 32?) with an average life span of 35 yrs. We should be welcoming a new ship to the fleet every year, while saying goodbye to another one, just as we should see one unit a year go into mid-life and one return from it. It is incredible that politicians who have been struggling for years to come up with a shipbuilding support policy do not even grasp such a simple concept.

P.S.: I agree it would be nice to see the square rig  back, but please, with a modern day solution to the %^&*$#@ jumper that took an hour to get into.

 

[gcclarke]

I will say, tradition for tradition's sake is fine, but not when it comes at the expense of functionality. I can't really see any way of designing square rig that's more functional than the NICE NCDs that are coming out. And you know what? Should someone manage to do so, I'd expect Officers to wear them too. Wearing different kit is all well and good when ashore (DEU versus NCDs), but operational kit should reflect the job that people are doing, not their rank.

 

[FSTO]

I will say, tradition for tradition's sake is fine, but not when it comes at the expense of functionality. I can't really see any way of designing square rig that's more functional than the NICE NCDs that are coming out. And you know what? Should someone manage to do so, I'd expect Officers to wear them too. Wearing different kit is all well and good when ashore (DEU versus NCDs), but operational kit should reflect the job that people are doing, not their rank.

DEU's and square rig (if that came about) would be only for ceremonial or if you are posted ashore. Working dress will always be the NCD's.
My biggest pet peeve is seeing folks who are posted to an office (MARPAC/LANT CMS Ottawa) wearing NCD's. They think it makes them look operational, I think it makes them look stupid.

 

[Michael OLeary]

So, a new square rig would be like a Navy version of Garrison Dress?

 

[Pusser]

No, "square rig" is a ceremonial uniform.  The Americans refer to it as their "Cracker Jack" outfit.  It's a traditinal sailor suit, complete with bell bottom trousers, seaman's cap (the one the sea cadets still wear) and an open-front jumper with seaman's collar (the flap on the back).  It's a sharp uniform and leaves no doubt that the person wearing is a sailor.  I was wearing the current DEU one day and someone asked me if I worked for Air Canada (which was a step above being confused for a bus driver or baggage handler, which happened to me when we wore green, but still wrong)!

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

On the subject of colour between rank stripes (officially known as "distinction cloth").  Both the RCN and RN dropped it in the early 60s (prior to unification), largely because they ran out of colours.  There were too many specialist branches to go with the colours of cloth available and so many were wearing light green, which ended up as the general catch-all colour.  There is the story of a laundry officer during WWII who was captured and taken for "special" interrogation because the Nazis thought he was an intelligence officer (both branches wore light green - BTW, the electrical branch wore dark green).  The only branch(es) that kept distinction cloth were the medical officers (doctors) who wore (and still wear) scarlet and the non-doctors of the medical branches (pharmacists, nurses, MAOs, etc) who wore (and still wear) maroon.

Oldegateboatdriver - did your jumper not have a zipper?  I thought the RCN re-designed them in the 50/60s (many years before the RN did the same).  I certainly had no difficulty putting on the one I wore as a sea cadet in the 70s (which had a zipper).  And no, mine was not specifically manufactured for the Sea Cadets.  As I recall, the Tip Top Tailor tag inside said it was manufactured in the late 50s - I thought it was kind of cool to wear a uniform that was older than I was!

 

[gcclarke]

Ahhh my mistake. Sorry.

 

[RhumRunner]

It should not be a priority for them. I have been around since mid-70's and the verge of rusting out has been the natural peacetime condition of the Canadian Navy since the early 60's. There is nothing the Naval leadership can do about it (except scream at politicians, perhaps!). This comes from an imbecilic procurement system. It may (I emphasize may before someone crucifies me) make sense for the army, for instance, to buy 100 Leo's in one shut. But no self respecting businessman who operates a fleet of 100 trucks with a lifespan of ten years buys them all at one. He buys 10 new ones every year. That is how Navy procurement should operate too. The fleet is 33 ships strong now (or is it 32?) with an average life span of 35 yrs. We should be welcoming a new ship to the fleet every year, while saying goodbye to another one, just as we should see one unit a year go into mid-life and one return from it. It is incredible that politicians who have been struggling for years to come up with a shipbuilding support policy do not even grasp such a simple concept.

:

There you go again. Making perfectly good sense.

OGBD FOR PRIME MINISTER  ;D