Native protesters

[foresterab]

Exsemjingo,

I've learned the lessons the hard way about grouping all natives as good or bad.  However due to where I live I'm only able to get the news coverage of the Caldonia situation and most likely don't have all the details and definately not all the perspectives.

What's going on in Caldonia is something I've had to deal with multiple times in my career...averaging about 1.5 years between incidents.  These have mostly been with assorted Oji-Cree or Cree communities but the objective is the same.  A dramatic interuption of normal events to gain media coverage to focus attention on their objective...similar to extreme environmentalists chaining themselves to trees to prevent logging.

Why I say both parties are guilty (and I  know I'm missing some information so I hope I have the key stuff) is that I belive a lien was in place against the land but the Provincial gov't overruled it.  Land claim negotiations are incredibly tricky...one we're dealing with has 5 different semi-official boundaries all of which are on the table and debated depending on the issue at hand.    I don't know if this lien was for the whole development area, a portion of it, or was in the process of filing.  Either way...if this occured the gov't is at fault for failing to resolve the issue prior to sale/release of the lands.

The Caldonia protesters are a fault for failing to follow the legal options (up to and including class action suits) to resolve this.  A court injunction against the developement would have settled this issue. And don't kid yourself....lawyers would have been lining up to take the case.

By putting a blockade up you are just about garunteed to recieve media attention...and unfortunately this often means deals are cut and the issue is resolved short term (ie. the land claim is granted).  What some individuals don't realize is the breach of trust/respect that occurs after such acts...events like this can very quickly poison a band/reserve/cultural name permanently.  While the local Caldonia protesters may have a single objective of protecting a piece of land they may not have thought out the long term consequences.

It is unfortunate but when working for a provincial government the politics around first nations are so intense that no matter what the rules say politics dictate otherwise.  It's not right...but it's a fact of life.  In Ontario having just completed the review of the Ipperwash shooting this is a very sensitive environment and the OPP does not want to go through the experience again so is trying to bluff their way through. 

The other thing to consider is that what exactly are native only rights versus common Canadian rights for all and how they relate has undergone massive changes in the last few years.  The courts are slowly re-establishing the ground rules but with the current state of flux many things I dealt with 5 years ago no longer apply...and I now do many new things differently.

Take Caldonia for what it is...a civil disobediance with huge politics involved and a desire for the police to have it occur peacefully. 

I don't know if this helps but maybe it's another perspective to give some food for thought.

 

[UberCree]

You seem to have a well balanced and fresh perspective.  Glad you joined us.

I found this the most interesting.
"By putting a blockade up you are just about garunteed to recieve media attention...and unfortunately this often means deals are cut and the issue is resolved short term (ie. the land claim is granted).  What some individuals don't realize is the breach of trust/respect that occurs after such acts...events like this can very quickly poison a band/reserve/cultural name permanently.  While the local Caldonia protesters may have a single objective of protecting a piece of land they may not have thought out the long term consequences."

Do you think that the whole Oka escapade hurt the Mohawk (akwasana, kanawaka) 'reputation' or actually helped them in regards to land claims?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Now THATS a tough question..........hmm, think right now or watch the Leafs?

Sorry Ubercree, but tonight is for mind-numbing, I will revisit this tomorrow.

 

[foresterab]

UberCree..

Mmm...Oka.  That one I'm not so sure on mostly because of it being quite a few years ago now and many of the details are now fuzzy.

I guess the way I look at it is from three perspectives:
1) for the radicalized elements of the Mohawk peoples who belive in the Mohawk way only and fight the white man all the time...it was a win.  What I'm not sure about is how this may or may not tie into the warrior societies of the six nations but it definately provided a rallying cry for some of the more extreme views within the culture.
2) for the average member of the reserves...it was a loss.  The scrutiny and blatent disregard of Canadian law (land claim dispute aside) means that many view the entire reserve as either a) someone who can't be trusted b) someone who is dangerous or c) someone who is criminal.  These people are none of those views but it does influence the thinking of the outside especially those who are not in the area and don't get the full perspective.
3) for the armed forces it was a loss.  It was a mission that had virtually no way of making the armed forces appear in a positive or even neutral light but it was one they were mandated to undertake.  In my mind this would have been much better handled by police officers...unfortunately since it involved federal lands provincial police forces are always respected/effective.

Although the incident ended semi-peacefully I think the breach of trust between the european and Mohawk cultures was so sharp that to this day members of the Mohawk reserves may be held to a higher level of scrutiny by law officials and provided an opening for many illegal organizations.  By proving they had the arms and the will to stand up to the police many criminal organizations then exploited that will for their gain by funnelling monies/drugs/contraband through the reserves....something that has proven true through the cigarette and gun smuggling investigations.  If the protest had not occured many large criminal organizations would not have paid attention to a) where it was located geographincally and b) the actions of some of its members.

As I mentioned above that it's something that's pretty fuzzy to me so I'll refer to something closer to home here with some of the cree communities.  As I live in Alberta there is a ton of oil and gas activity accross the landscape and consultation occurs in many forms and levels of quality.  Some companies I've had dealing with are excellent and very heartfelt and honest when it comes to dealing with registered traplines who are often held by native peoples in various communities.  However...these companies approach all new trappers the same way and it is interesting to see how things evolve.  Those trappers that refer to the communty for handling things tend to stay the same or get the minimum input.  Those that deal with the company themselves (with or without translators..the company offers many options and does the negotaions where the trapper choses) tend to have a fair amount of say in the planning process and get many of their values protected - excellent relations that last a long time.  Then there is the third crowd that doesn't say anything during the planning process...waits until the approval is just about to be granted.....and then throws all kinds of "road blocks" up to gain a better deal.  This third group is only involved for 1 or two seasons before negotiations are so hostile the company bypasses them entirely (which they can given due cause) and gives them the absolute minimum.

Apply that same logic to land claims...either you talk and bash something out, take the minimum because someone else does the work, or fight it for a short term goal and get left behind in the future.  It's ugly.....but so are the laws around first nations/provinces/culture clashes/differing histories etc etc etc..

Here's some positive news though I heard on a talk show that relates to an earlier post on native housing on reserves.  Apparently through the Indian Act there is a provision for something like a "certificate of occupancy" which basically translates to a mortgage issued through the reserve to an inhabitant (must be status to qualify).  I'm not sure which reserve it is but apparently one of the Six Nations reserves in southern ontario has been applying this to their residents and have started up a real estate company to handle the boom.  Obviously lots of issues good and bad here but it was some positve news regarding reserve life for once.

 

[UberCree]

Cirtificate of possession is what my reserve is looking into as well.  Finally something that would allow people to own their own home.

 

[Kirkhill]

1 Bedroom Flat For Sale in Cowplain, WATERLOOVILLE, Hampshire 
Simply stunning brand new development of two ground floor apartments and one first floor apartment, high specification throughout, private gardens and parking. The properties are offered with a share of the freehold and 999 year lease.

Ref: NNW0754

£159,995

Here's one way it is done in the UK.  The "Owner" holds the property on a 999 year lease from the Crown.  A share of the freehold means access to the commons and an ability to control access.  The owner can sell the property at any time during the lease while the Crown retains nominal property rights.  This allows the owner to use the property as collateral and build equity but allows the Crown the right to control the development of the property or expropriate it in the community's interest (roads, training areas, golf courses etc).

That would allow the reserves to retain their land and control sale but still allow the householders the use of the property as collateral.

Obviously it works because 999 years is an astonishingly long time horizon while the 99 year leases, as has been found in Tsawassen? come up for debate far too soon.

 

[TCBF]

It's not the same.  Land must be owned, or property rights erode even further. Without property rights, there can be no true democracy.

Tom

 

[foresterab]

Well...this is where it gets ugly.

The Indian Act states that reserve lands are granted to the community/nation/band....but individual ownership is not permitted.  This has caused major issues with financing and credit establishment for on reserve natives and complicated the whole ownership/rights question.

The Certificate of Possesion as I understand them grants the legal equivalent to a morgage to an indvidual through the Indian Act.  What this means is that even though the individual is in "possession" of the house they are an appoited caretaker of a segment of the common lands (the property)  meeting both financial morgage requirements of possession and Indian act requirements of common ownership.

Ubercree might know more on this subject as I've only caught a quick 20 minute talkshow on it last year and have probably rewrote the laws trying to explain this.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Will banks lend money on the basis of such a Certificate?  What does the bank repossess if a loan defaults?

 

[TCBF]

You either own it or you don't.

Another trouble is, the Indian Act won't let bands BUY land to add to a reserve, either.  Most Canadian reserves are far too small to be economically self sufficient.  The USA gave their reserves much larger 'Reservations' in most cases.

 

[foresterab]

okay...getting fuzzier on the details here but my understanding is that the banks love these.  

First the lands are federal lands and can't be sold off so it's just the house involved and hence tends to be smaller dollar amounts.  Secondly due to treaty payments there is a gaurenteed cash flow coming in that can be used against the loan.  
Thirdly the band works as the credit reference I belive so that if the loan signee defaults it's up to the band to handle the shortfall....this is unfortunately one of the big drawbacks to the system.

It's still a pretty new concept and has only been applied in S. Ontario to date that I'm aware of so the exact details and process are still largely unknown.  I know talking with the locals around here nobody has heard of it.

In regards to reserve lands...TCBF is correct.  Reserves can not buy adjacent provincial lands and transfer them to federal land status without basically re-opening the treaty.  However they are allowed to base a buisness of the reserve and purchase assests off the reserve to provide a cashflow to the local bandmembers...hence why one local reserve has hotels in at least three different communities I know of.  In addition one must also consider the size of the population at the time of signing the reserve...in the Treaty 8 area where I work there are lots of little reserves but they were designed around 1-5 people...not the current 500 several generations later.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A house backstopping a loan probably won't be good enough - too liable to depreciation and damage and too hard to effectively repossess, relocate, and resell - but a reliable third-party guarantee might be.  Lenders can be remarkably indifferent to everything except the value of the collateral.  However, if your loans are underwritten, it's harder to build your own credit rating.

 

[Infanteer]

Interesting conversation - this one slipped by though:

I am an advocate of the 'citizen plus' model.

You and I were both born in Canada - how come you get a "+" and I don't?

As well, doesn't identifying "citizen +" make it easier to identify "citizen -"?

 

[Kat Stevens]

That would be us immigrants, according to some around here. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

Citizen+: ancestors immigrated prior to 1492.
Citizen: born in country, ancestors immigrated since 1492.
Citizen-: not born in Canada.

 

[Kirkhill]

Citizen-: not born in Canada

Normally that would be me but thanks to a little known clause in the BNA inserted by Sir John A. MacDonald and ratified by Alexander MacKenzie, as a Scot I am a Citizen x2  ;D >

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Do you think that the whole Oka escapade hurt the Mohawk (akwasana, kanawaka) 'reputation' or actually helped them in regards to land claims?

I won't presume to speak for anyone else. but............

If it were my option? I would NEVER, EVER, sit down with the thugs that hijacked the process (the Warriors). Civil disobedience by ANY other group in Canada would have been dealt with, short and swift. The standoff at Oka only proved out what the Aboriginals have held with all along. WE are UNTOUCABLE. The White Man's law does not apply to us. As such we are not subject to their rules, and can do anything we want. We'll get anything we want with protest, occupation and violence if necessary. We'll fund our cause with smuggling, of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, goods, and people. We'll make our own subservient and press gang them to our cause with threats of violence and alienation. You're with us or against us.

When they can prove that their society will work democratically, and without strong arm, organized crime tactics, I'll be more than willing to let them patrol themselves, and give them autonomy. Right now their reserves are rampant with nepotism and greed. We keep throwing money at the problem, and the Band Councils starve their own while the leaders drive Eddy Bauer Limited Editions. Traditional hunting and fishing doesn't mean wiping out a herd of caribou to sell on the black market, or netting the entire run of spring salmon coming up the Frazer. For a group that claims to be the watch dogs of MOTHER EARTH, you're doing a pretty lousy job. Consider the burning of tires and the setting fire to the bridge in Caledonia, as one example. Just like everything else in life...........respect is earned. Without it, they have nothing, and when they have nothing, it's no ones fault but their own.

Everyone else has to learn and live to make ends meet, gain an education and compete with society. That is simply the way of the world..........for all cultures on the face of this huge earth. Broken down to it's singularity, Canada's Aboriginals are treated no more, or less, than spoiled children. Their fault, our fault, who knows, but it's time to get past that. The days of complaining about abuse and mistreatment are over. The new generation has no excuse. You make it in the world, as thousands of Aboriginals do, with Fortune 500 companies and Co-ops, or you sit around drinking, smoking or huffing gas, waiting for your next welfare check. Sorry, we don't call it welfare. It's Unemployment, or allowance of some sort. Maybe that's part of the problem. If we called it for what it really is, maybe some would be ashamed to collect it and rejoin society.

Bottom line is, today's society is no longer responsible for the plight of the Aboriginal. People on this forum, like Ubercreee, if I may, are proof positive that they can do something with their life, if they choose. If they won't do it on their own, maybe it's time for some tough love. Out of the house, backs turned, until they prove that they can progress like the rest of the world.

That's my thoughts. What I've posted are what I believe, and I'm sorry if anyone is offended, it was not my intention. You can post your beliefs, which is only right and natural. I believe what I wrote, and have for many years. I will read what you post, however, I will not debate what I've written. It will be up to someone to convince me otherwise.

 

[vonGarvin]

I have an idea
Why not adopt the "Starship Troopers" model. (the novel, NOT the movie)
We are all civilians.  We all have the same rights.
We can earn our way to become citizens, with accompanying privelages and responsibilities, through some sort of service, be it military, police, social services, whatever.
Not one part of this based on genetics or race or anything like that.

OK, so since that isn't going to happen, I'll just sit back and keep watching.


Ende

 

[observor 69]

Another aspect of this problem that angers me is Indian tribes want it both ways on reservations. They insist the reservation must continue to be in some isolated location ands then complain they haven't got the full range of social services. Good medical, education, clean water and jobs are not sustainable in remote northern locations even though the feds have plowed millions into trying. Move the reservation into the proximity of a community that can provide these services and provide a future for Indian children.

 

[Infanteer]

Citizen+: ancestors immigrated prior to 1492.
Citizen: born in country, ancestors immigrated since 1492.
Citizen-: not born in Canada.

1492 is an arbitrary date, no?  Considering the arrival of the Europeans was the 5th major migration to the Americas, how come they can't have a "+" either?

This whole thing reminds me a Israel/Palestine lite - everyone is so focussed on the past and events of hundreds (or thousands) of years ago that they aren't willing to sit down and deal with the real issues on the ground.