Native protesters

[The Bread Guy]

OUTSTANDING discussion, in a level of detail I'm not used to seeing in MSM (not surprising, given the crowd here).  Just a few points to clarify, though...

Look at the situation in Kashechewan, where the federal government built the water treatment plant downstream from a sewage lagoon.  Will the idiot who made that decision face any consequences?  Doubtful.

A picture (or, in this case, a Google map) can speak better than 1K words....
Kashechewan Water System

Many of these communities have unqualified people running the various facilities as well, not because of who they know or are, but because the government builds the plants and then never trains the people to run them.

Just to set the record straight, Indian Affairs provides funding to First Nations for design and construction (as well as operation and maintenance) of water and wastewater facilities, and First Nations manage the construction and operation of same - INAC doesn't build or operate such facilities.  First Nations are encouraged to include training provisions in construction contracts as part of the construction/commissioning process.  INAC also provides funding to First Nations, Tribal Councils (technical advisory bodies providing services to groups of First Nations) and other technical service providers  for a variety of programs to train water and wastewater treatment plant operators.

Interesting observations, indeed, about the media's take vs. what was happening on the ground.  All I'll say in a public forum is that a lot of what was said about the situation didn't make it to the eyes/ears of the media consumer...

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Interesting observations, indeed, about the media's take vs. what was happening on the ground.  All I'll say in a public forum is that a lot of what was said about the situation didn't make it to the eyes/ears of the media consumer...

O M G !!!

You aren't trying to say that the MSM in Canada would leave out information that may cast a special interest group in an unfavorable light are you?!?!?  My faith in the unbiased media would be shattered! 

 

[The Bread Guy]

O M G !!!

You aren't trying to say that the MSM in Canada would leave out information that may cast a special interest group in an unfavorable light are you?!?!?  My faith in the unbiased media would be shattered! 

I figured people here wouldn't understand.....  ;D

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I figured people here wouldn't understand.....  ;D

Don't worry.  We know you're one of the good guys.  Must be lonely. 

 

[Jacqueline]

OK I have a question... Some people think that the status card is unfair. What's the difference between a University discounts card or a military discount card or a tax exempt for some immigrants? Since they both exclude groups of people they should also be unfair right?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

OK I have a question... Some people think that the status card is unfair. What's the difference between a University discounts card or a military discount card or a tax exempt for some immigrants? Since they both exclude groups of people they should also be unfair right?

Perhaps you could start a new thread for that.  This one is supposed to be about the unlawful occupation of land by a group of criminals. 

 

[UberCree]

This one is supposed to be about the unlawful occupation of land by a group of criminals. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

;D

 

[TCBF]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

;D

- Now, why do I think UberCree's reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek, so to speak.  Could be he was refering to a slightly larger scale of occupation?

- There is a chap at SFU who disdains the current aboriginal leadership, claiming they are tools of the settlers.  'Settler' was also the phrase used by various 'liberation' groups in Africa.  As in "One Settler - One bullet."

- The 'Stolen Land' concept is an interesting one.  Given the to and fro of human migration in the Old World, it is doubtful an international court would view the entire European colonization of the Americas as illegal.  No doubt, there are instances of treaty violations, abrogations, or no treaty in place - but that hardly, in the context of the mobility of humanity, constitutes stealing a continent.

- Far worse damage is being done now by an Indian Act that entrenches the petty despotism of Reserve politics than was done by colonization.  Colonization uprooted and strained Aboriginal Tribal culture.  The Indian Act mandated Bantu-stans will destroy it forever.

 

[Klc]

What's the difference between a University discounts card or a military discount card

Nobody was ever born with the 'right' to a university discount or military discount card...

 

[Jacqueline]

Okee dokee I see. Sorry I didn't mean to stray off topic.

 

[Infanteer]

OK I have a question... Some people think that the status card is unfair. What's the difference between a University discounts card or a military discount card or a tax exempt for some immigrants? Since they both exclude groups of people they should also be unfair right?

"Discount cards" are based on voluntarily belonging to an organization - race, sex, ethnicity, or religion doesn't factor in on one's ability to get the privileges of such a card.

As for immigrants, they have different legal standing in Canada.  They may be exempt from certain things, but they are also denied certain rights and privileges that a Canadian citizen would be entitled to.  This is a legal position - being an immigrant is, again, not dependent on coming from any certain ethnic group, only that you not hold Canadian citizenship (at the moment). 

For two people born in Canada on the exact same date (for the sake of the argument), why should we, in a 21st century democracy, enshrine racial or ethnic differences in law?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Someone owes me 38 years of back pay for all the immigrant bonuses I'm apparently entitled to.

 

[TCBF]

"For two people born in Canada on the exact same date (for the sake of the argument), why should we, in a 21st century democracy, enshrine racial or ethnic differences in law?"

- Well, "All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others." - George Orwell.

- Because it is good politics.  Divide and conquer.  We are 33,000,000 diverse victim groups.  All of the non-western immgroups that have been used to pack the GTA ridings full of pliant third world voters are themselves compliant little minions come election day.  The 'unintended consequence' of this is that the feds packed the GTA with groups that come from socially conservative cultures.  When they eventually wake up, they will realize they have been duped into deconstructing the remnants of a conservative Protestant 1950s era Toronto, and have allowed it to be replaced with an anti-family, pro-gay, anti-religious elite that is an anathema to their original 'old country' culture.  Wait for it.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

As for immigrants, they have different legal standing in Canada.  They may be exempt from certain things, but they are also denied certain rights and privileges that a Canadian citizen would be entitled to.  This is a legal position - being an immigrant is, again, not dependent on coming from any certain ethnic group, only that you not hold Canadian citizenship (at the moment). 

As well, those benefits are not for life.  They are just to help the immigrants get a leg up and on their feet once they get to our country.  And you know what? By and large they actually use it to better themselves.  I rarely see people that are new arrivals that have been here longer than five years that haven't worked their arses off and are not on welfare for life.  Unlike many of the white/black/native people who I see, who are multi-generation welfare recipients, and feel they are SO entitled to the cradle-to-grave freebies that are the hallmark of living in Canada. 

 

[ArmyRick]

TCBF, very good point. Alot of those people (recent immagrants) vote liberal/NDP out of fear and ignorance.

 

[George Wallace]

TCBF, very good point. Alot of those people (recent immagrants) vote liberal/NDP out of fear and ignorance.

Or is it really a 'misplaced sense of Loyalty'?  Many of these immigrants are coming from Third World countries where 'Democracy' may not have been in one of its' finer forms, and as such feel a sense of loyalty to the Ruling Party in Canada at the time of their arrival, and the benefits and freedoms that they received on arrival.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This opinion piece by Gordon Gibson, reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, caught my eye because I think it touches on one of the most severe crises facing Canada:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070822.wcogibson0822/BNStory/specialComment/home

Is integration the better option for Indians?

GORDON GIBSON
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

August 22, 2007 at 8:51 AM EDT

Adam Keeper. Age 6. Death by bullying. Three youths, ages 7 to 9, forced him to strip and pushed him into the water although he couldn't swim.

He drowned, another sad story in a sad series of Indian deaths. Not far from his grave on the Pauingassi First Nation are three more young victims of violence in the past year; in May, two girls, 13 and 15, were charged in the beating death of a 22-year-old woman.

The Pauingassi reserve is about 320 kilometres north of Winnipeg, with no road access. Population, about 350.

More than 60 per cent of the residents are addicted to alcohol or solvents, according to the local chief. There are essentially no real jobs, save seasonal rice harvesting and a fishing camp. The money comes from the government.

The almost complete isolation and traditional ways of life of the Pauingassi continued until the mid-1950s. Then came the missionaries and government to "help." The Pauingassi School website lists the benefits - a school, nursing station, subsidized housing, electricity, a water system, residential telephones - but notes: "These benefits have been, to some extent, offset by social problems such as drinking, vandalism and gas-sniffing, but the great majority of people have adapted to rapid social change very well."

So there you are. From self-sufficiency to substance abuse. Credit/blame our government - and us. This is an extreme case of the situation of Canada's 400,000 reserve Indians, a story replicated in similar or lesser forms too often.

About 40 per cent of all residents of reserves are on welfare. Suicide rates run several multiples of the average. You've heard it before.

Now back to Ottawa. The sad story of Adam Keeper, reported last Wednesday, was greatly overshadowed by the cabinet shuffle. Jim Prentice, until then the Indian Affairs Minister and generally acknowledged as one of the most competent ministers on the Conservative benches, was moving to Industry. This was presented as being very good, because Industry is Ottawa's repository of concern for productivity.

Only policy wonks care about this because unfortunately most people see the word as code for working harder for the same wages

The other side of that cabinet shuffle was bad news, because Indian policy is the greatest moral question (and failure) in Canadian politics. Mr. Prentice, before his departure from Indian Affairs, finally was improving things.

That responsibility now falls to Chuck Strahl, an intelligent and compassionate man. It will take him time to get up to speed in his new post.

Mr. Strahl must address the central question of Indian policy: Is it a favour to individuals to foster their adhesion to a parallel society reserved for Indians, the current orthodoxy? Or would it instead be better to offer an equal choice of participating in the mainstream?

These innocent words conceal an explosive issue, because the mainstream world offers so many more possibilities for the mind, body and soul than the parallel ethno/cultural-based society. Genuine choice would almost certainly lead to integration into the mainstream, which is entirely possible without rejecting one's heritage. But there is a huge industry - political, academic, legal, financial, bureaucratic - based on the belief Indians are fundamentally different from the rest of us, and keeping them so.

"Keeping them so" means maintaining isolated places like Pauingassi, and the enormous $10-billion structure of the parallel-society enterprise, the favourite of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, most academics and most Indian elites. They may be right, they may not. But the view is never challenged.

Should the choice be up to the individual? That is what we say with most Canadians. But with Indians we say, no, the fundamental choice is up to the Indian collective, and it is those power structures that we will fund and nourish, not the individual.

You need both, but which takes priority on any given policy choice: the individual or the collective?

It will be a brave minister willing to confront that question. Until then, the Pauingassi stories will continue.

ggibson@bc-home.com

A couple of points, from my perspective:

1. Aboriginal Canadians constitute a major underclass in our country – a very fast growing underclass but, in the main, one which is not advancing, upwards, from its position of extreme socio-economic disadvantage; and

2. Aboriginal leaders are, almost universally, conservative: so conservative as to be almost communistic.  They hold extreme statist views and emphasize collective rights over any and all liberal individual rights – even to such inherent and natural individual rights as the right to privacy and to private property.

Any fair reading of history teaches that conservative, statist societies/nations tend to founder and collapse – further disadvantaging their members/citizens.  In the case of Aboriginal Canadians that means that their leaders have likely put them on a course leading to an even worse situation – if that’s imaginable.

I believe that young, poor, poorly educated Aboriginal Canadians represent a major security threat – at least as dangerous as young, poor, poorly socialized Muslims in Canada.

I have no idea about the right answer to Aboriginal Canadians’ plight.  I am worried that the ‘solutions’ proffered by Aboriginal leaders and most Canadian politicians are wrong.  I am also fairly certain that any solution will be hideously expensive – think of a sum roughly equal to the defence budget being required year after year, for decades, to provide redress for real grievances and to provide real long term opportunities.

 

[geo]

IMHO, the problem was, the problem is, the problem will continue to be that the Gov't (at all levels) wrings it's hands wondering what can be done, throws money at the darned thing and moves on to other important issues... such as lunch ( me cynical?)
So the Gov't pays for a bunch of new houses, on a new reservation, and places the same people (Amerind) into the place - so the place can get rundown just like the last one.
Change is required.  Giving aid the way it's been done is not the cure, it perpetuates the cycle.

People need to work, people need to feel that their contribution to society is an important cog in the big picture machine.  So long as you give something for nothing, nothing will change.

(rant off)

 

[Roy Harding]

I live in an area with a significant native population (Terrace, BC).  I don't have numbers - perhaps I'll dig some up later.  Suffice to say for now that the presence of the Nisga'a people is a significant factor in this area.

In the past, I've lived in urban areas (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon) where my only exposure to native folk was the stereo-typical drunken bum on downtown streets, and to a lesser extent the native gangs prevalent on the public transport systems.  Since moving to Terrace, I've been exposed to a different side of native people.  Many of the businesses that I deal with locally are owned and operated by native folk.  They are a significant proportion of the work force.  As cliche as I know it sounds, many of the friends I've made here are native.

I've made the following (unscientific, and purely opinion based) observations:

• 
  Those natives who choose to remain on the reserve seem destined to continue the drug riddled, poverty stricken, welfare lifestyle - it is they who are the local hooligans and n'er do wells.
• Those natives who have chosen to leave the reserve, and make a living - either through entrepreneurial endeavour, or joining the mainstream workforce, have achieved the same middle class lifestyle that I enjoy.  They worry about the same things I worry about, and whine and moan about the same things I whine and moan about.

Many of my friends here travel back to their homes on the reserve for a visit - in much the same manner as I used to travel back to my great uncles farm.  They attend cultural events, and have formed culture based clubs in town - they have, in many cases, a much more profound and in depth understanding of their culture and history than their fellows who choose to remain on the reserve, under the thumb of the band council.

My point is that I think E.R. Campbell is generally correct.  As long as natives continue following leaders who are conservative - their lot will not improve, and the society which exists on the reserve will continue to foment radicalized, unthinking, troubled young folk.


Roy

 

[geo]

I witnessed an interesting social experiment a number of years ago when the Quebec Gov't did some land claims settlements for the James Bay accord... whereby the Provincial hydro authority got hold of & flooded a large part of ancestral hunditn ggrounds.

Amerindian communities got their fair share of the $$$, kept some $$$ and divvied up the rest between the families that lived on the reservation.  Some new houses, lots of new cars & trucks & apliances... then nothing.

Inuit communities formed the Makivik Corporation to take and administer their $$$.  No individual got a cheque.  The corporation bought out and began administering businesses (eg; Air Inuit) they started up businesses that would build the houses, provide water services to the communities, provide sanitation & garbage disposal, etc.
In some communities, they hired hunters to go out & bring back fish & meat for the infirm & old people in the villages. 

I can't say it was perfect but, from what I have seen, the Inuit still have their $$$ nest egg while the Amerind don't