Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[dimsum]

It's only been 5yr since the last review.

I'd be curious how often other allied nations do their reviews. Things change quite a bit in 5 years.

 

[GR66]

I'd be curious how often other allied nations do their reviews. Things change quite a bit in 5 years.

Another thing that our PM admires about Communist China....5 Year Plans

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Engineering ≠ Procurement

The tech staff program prepares people to be requirements staff who are a little harder for corporate sales reps to snow. Graduates can still have no idea how to run a capital project.

The Army does need to do better at employing people in the role after the training. Most officer occupations seemed good at that, though the infantry had a tendency to always send someone to the school where they may or may not have been employed as a “tech Adjt.” The WO & MWO for the most part went on to do anything but tech jobs.

Never said it did, being the top engineer in their program at the top University in Canada would probably indicate to anyone with any sense that we should probably put said persons brain to good use.

As for Tech Staff, the program is exactly what we've made it. We've also watered it down over the years.

Explain to me how an infantry officer is trained to understand procurement.

When the CAF insists on inserting military personnel who are at best enthusiastic amateurs into procurement, results suffer.

I mean we could also say that about the Civil Service. The Federal Civil Service massively under delivers on ALL major capital investments.

I can't think of one project the Federal Government has undertaken in recent memory that isn't a total dumpster fire:

Trans-mountain
Treated water for the Indigenous
Shipbuilding writ large
Etc...

 

[dimsum]

Another thing that our PM admires about Communist China....5 Year Plans

I mean, that's a stretch.

Having regular reviews of things that change isn't a bad idea.

 

[JLB50]

I realize that Freeland said that there’s really no money in the Treasury to speak of. Yet, somehow, I think that if she or Anand had been Prime Minister the DND would have seen a lot more money for defence. Trudeau always seems to find a reason to keep the CAF on life support.

 

[Dale Denton]

What would it take to get people to care? CAF needs the public to be aware of it as an institution and its shortcomings. This would all be in order to build civilian literacy and therefore securing the CAFs future.

I'd reckon that if you took a nice chunk of that new money and created an awareness/outreach program or just copy what Forces News (YT) or the RM have put out, you'd get some more bang for your buck. I'm no publicist, so i'm sure there's other avenues that i'm not thinking of.

In my eyes, fixing the CAFs image and raising awareness of its limitations would go further than a new project that'll deliver in 10-15 years.

 

[Remius]

What would it take to get people to care? CAF needs the public to be aware of it as an institution and its shortcomings. This would all be in order to build civilian literacy and therefore securing the CAFs future.

I'd reckon that if you took a nice chunk of that new money and created an awareness/outreach program or just copy what Forces News (YT) or the RM have put out, you'd get some more bang for your buck. I'm no publicist, so i'm sure there's other avenues that i'm not thinking of.

In my eyes, fixing the CAFs image and raising awareness of its limitations would go further than a new project that'll deliver in 10-15 years.

The best public awareness is for the CAF to outright say we can’t complete whatever mission is expected. Like literally say we can’t do it.

Hey fires in BC, call in the army. Sorry but we just can’t provide what is required.

COVID surge. Call in the army. Can’t do it, not enough pers or equipment.

The CAF needs to start saying no.

 

[WLSC]

How do you think procurement works? We put out a tender, bids come in, off you go only applies to existing catalogued items. If it hits a certain value, it goes to PSPC, otherwise we do it ourselves.

New capitol procurements have a big process with a whack of non-DND requirements. If you go past a certain value, it goes through PSPC, and when you hit other thresholds, about 10 other departments involved.

'Deliberate attack' isn't the plan, it's more like you show up as into a project, and there is a massive bureaucratic obstacle course to jump through, which you have to tackle one at a time. Some is internal DND, most of it is external. Some of the internal DND processes were mandated by TBS.

If we could just whip out a credit card, we would. But sure, tell us how it 'should' go.

I have no clue.

What I know is the receiving hand part which take way too much time for simple thing like a pistol, radios, etc. How long did it take to go around Colt Canada for the pistol? So let's talk about Fighter jets, ships, why does it take all those years? Too many check in the box to make by other agencies. Those agencies dont have the same priority than the CAF (when they should because it comes from the top), so it's done when it's done, right? For what?

Why absolutely the exquisite canadian solution? Why not go of the shelve on specific item for a while? There's process and process in the process to confirm the process is still the proper one before reviewing the processes. I understand that we cannot go as fast our allies (if we still have real one) because of numbers of poeple working on project are smaller.

At the level we are right now (like 1939 IMO), I think that yes, we could cut some corner a bit and manage risk. If something exist and is used by an allied, for a while and specific items, I think we should just go and buy. Then when it's stabilised we can go back to mode deliberate planning.

PMO and TB know exacly where the problems are and how to fix it. We are their creature/responsability, their created those processes.

Canada can do it. The Afghan years proved it. When there's a will, there's a mean.

 

[dimsum]

The best public awareness is for the CAF to outright say we can’t complete whatever mission is expected. Like literally say we can’t do it.

Hey fires in BC, call in the army. Sorry but we just can’t provide what is required.

COVID surge. Call in the army. Can’t do it, not enough pers or equipment.

The CAF needs to start saying no.

Yep. Remember when "call in the CAF medical folks" was being bandied about and there was at least one article where someone complained that only 8 or 10 CAF folks responded?

The public honestly thinks that we have this big reserve of doctors, nurses, med techs, etc who are just twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Czech_pivo]

What would it take to get people to care? CAF needs the public to be aware of it as an institution and its shortcomings. This would all be in order to build civilian literacy and therefore securing the CAFs future.

I'd reckon that if you took a nice chunk of that new money and created an awareness/outreach program or just copy what Forces News (YT) or the RM have put out, you'd get some more bang for your buck. I'm no publicist, so i'm sure there's other avenues that i'm not thinking of.

In my eyes, fixing the CAFs image and raising awareness of its limitations would go further than a new project that'll deliver in 10-15 years.

The truth -

For the truth of the current state to be plainly laid out to the general public. Provide concrete, relatable examples of how bad things are. Tell the general public all that is being swept under the rug, suppressed. Tell them about the saga to replace WWII-era pistols, tell them that the base housing is X years old and un-liveable in some cases, lay out the timeline/costs of obtaining used Aussie F-18s and how many are usable today.

Will it change the opinion of all? No, but so what, you'll never get 100% of the people on board, that is the nature of society, some people are just completely disengaged. But if you can get 60-65% of the population engaged, real change has the potential to occur.

The public doesn't have a clue and the vast majority of the politicians what it that way.

 

[WLSC]

The truth -

For the truth of the current state to be plainly laid out to the general public. Provide concrete, relatable examples of how bad things are. Tell the general public all that is being swept under the rug, suppressed. Tell them about the saga to replace WWII-era pistols, tell them that the base housing is X years old and un-liveable in some cases, lay out the timeline/costs of obtaining used Aussie F-18s and how many are usable today.

Will it change the opinion of all? No, but so what, you'll never get 100% of the people on board, that is the nature of society, some people are just completely disengaged. But if you can get 60-65% of the population engaged, real change has the potential to occur.

The public doesn't have a clue and the vast majority of the politicians what it that way.

That's why we have told to shut up. So they would not be ask to many question. Hillier (like him or hate him) was good at that and I think it help us. They dont want that back.

 

[Haggis]

The public doesn't have a clue and the vast majority of the politicians want it that way.

Indeed. The illusion of success is easier to attain than success itself. There are examples of this on social media millions of times a day.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Explain to me how an infantry officer is trained to understand procurement.

That illustrates a very important question. Why is military procurement not as demanding of special education and training and long-term dedicated employment (experience) as any military classification or occupation?

And if such a job ("military procurement") existed, would it be more appropriately done on the uniformed or non-uniformed side of the house?

And if there really are Big Suits who believe the uniformed senior members are not best suited to determine answers to the big questions, why haven't they already jumped at making procurement the playground of a solely non-uniformed career path?

 

[Brad Sallows]

So, DND was sent packing with direction to get SSE updated, and to do it ASAP.

Suggests we don't have a standing think tank or some kind of general staff that spends every working day poring over the events of the day, discerning trends, updating policy, revising the foundational documents, distributing the new requirements to the Big Suits...

 

[Weinie]

The truth -

For the truth of the current state to be plainly laid out to the general public. Provide concrete, relatable examples of how bad things are. Tell the general public all that is being swept under the rug, suppressed. Tell them about the saga to replace WWII-era pistols, tell them that the base housing is X years old and un-liveable in some cases, lay out the timeline/costs of obtaining used Aussie F-18s and how many are usable today.

Will it change the opinion of all? No, but so what, you'll never get 100% of the people on board, that is the nature of society, some people are just completely disengaged. But if you can get 60-65% of the population engaged, real change has the potential to occur.

The public doesn't have a clue and the vast majority of the politicians what it that way.

As a guy who has spent more than 25 years trying to get Canadians to care/invest/be interested in the CAF, let me offer some concise observations.

First, geography.

Secondly, outside of a few minor incidents, stability.

Thirdly, impact. Most world events have minimal impact on the vast majority of Canadians.

Did any one of your parents/friends/yourself really get seized with a World event that had potential Strat impact for Canada?

Thank your lucky stars we have been in this position. Lamenting it is like bitching you won only half the lottery.

I join others on here who would like to see Canada be better prepared and walk softly and carry a big stick. But pragmatism caveats my optimism.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I’m finding solace about all of this by watching clips from the movie ‘The Death of Stalin’ and the decision making process that occurred after he had his stroke. Maybe there is hope for us.

 

[Czech_pivo]

As a guy who has spent more than 25 years trying to get Canadians to care/invest/be interested in the CAF, let me offer some concise observations.

First, geography. USA is our protector

Secondly, outside of a few minor incidents, stability.

Thirdly, impact. Most world events have minimal impact on the vast majority of Canadians, thanks to #1

Did any one of your parents/friends/yourself really get seized with a World event that had potential Strat impact for Canada?

Thank your lucky stars we have the US protecting our back.been in this position. Lamenting it is like bitching you won only half the lottery.

I join others on here who would like to see Canada be better prepared and walk softly and carry a big stick. But pragmatism caveats my optimism.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I have no clue.

What I know is the receiving hand part which take way too much time for simple thing like a pistol, radios, etc. How long did it take to go around Colt Canada for the pistol? So let's talk about Fighter jets, ships, why does it take all those years? Too many check in the box to make by other agencies. Those agencies dont have the same priority than the CAF (when they should because it comes from the top), so it's done when it's done, right? For what?

Why absolutely the exquisite canadian solution? Why not go of the shelve on specific item for a while? There's process and process in the process to confirm the process is still the proper one before reviewing the processes. I understand that we cannot go as fast our allies (if we still have real one) because of numbers of poeple working on project are smaller.

At the level we are right now (like 1939 IMO), I think that yes, we could cut some corner a bit and manage risk. If something exist and is used by an allied, for a while and specific items, I think we should just go and buy. Then when it's stabilised we can go back to mode deliberate planning.

PMO and TB know exacly where the problems are and how to fix it. We are their creature/responsability, their created those processes.

Canada can do it. The Afghan years proved it. When there's a will, there's a mean.

So how do we get to this magical realm where Canadian laws around procurement, TBS policies, Cabinet direction, international treaty obligations (CITT) etc etc all don't apply and we can just 'go buy shit'. Even in Afghanistan a lot of big procurements still followed basic rules, and a lot of that equipment was a one time use until breakage.

Nothing personal, but pretty tired of people who have no idea of what's involve just say 'do better'. Sure, the current system sucks, but unless the PM, PMO and Cabinet basically burn the current system to the ground and do a complete, GoC wide reform we have to work within it. People working within that system are doing a lot of work to try and jump through all the bullshit and catch a lot of flak about the results, but you can't expect someone to put in Olympic qualifying times if you weight them down, tie their limbs together, and maybe shoot them a few times for good measure. And that's without even having political interference with big ticket items (like the F35).

There is also a lot of downsides to having a mix and match fleet, one off items, and corners cut in procurements to not provide basics like training, spares or repair lines, especially on ships where it has to be integrated into a few millions parts moving in the same general direction.

 

[Weinie]

#Czechpivo. All your responses in red is why I wrote concise.

 

[WLSC]

So how do we get to this magical realm where Canadian laws around procurement, TBS policies, Cabinet direction, international treaty obligations (CITT) etc etc all don't apply and we can just 'go buy shit'. Even in Afghanistan a lot of big procurements still followed basic rules, and a lot of that equipment was a one time use until breakage.

Nothing personal, but pretty tired of people who have no idea of what's involve just say 'do better'. Sure, the current system sucks, but unless the PM, PMO and Cabinet basically burn the current system to the ground and do a complete, GoC wide reform we have to work within it. People working within that system are doing a lot of work to try and jump through all the bullshit and catch a lot of flak about the results, but you can't expect someone to put in Olympic qualifying times if you weight them down, tie their limbs together, and maybe shoot them a few times for good measure. And that's without even having political interference with big ticket items (like the F35).

There is also a lot of downsides to having a mix and match fleet, one off items, and corners cut in procurements to not provide basics like training, spares or repair lines, especially on ships where it has to be integrated into a few millions parts moving in the same general direction.

I really do understand how do you fell, really. Nothing personnel also, the process is not good for us. Surely it's good for someone but not for us. Why then we are the only country (most probably) that re-did 3 competitions for the same result for a fighter and 10 years for a pistol? Even the RCMP is faster. I think they have the same boss.

It's simple, there is no political will to solve the issue. Look at the big ticket items we got during Afghanistan. Today, the process drive the show and we cant buy nothing. Why are we slower than our partner? How many time we had to got back to redo the work for the CFC?

In all those treaties, I dont think there is a stop for something like ''National Security''. We just dont do it. Except the RG's (which overall did the job) which one of those emergency buy caused us trouble after wards? I dont see one. I'm pretty confident that our GOFO are brilliant enough to do that again IOT bring us back in a somewhat positive view in our partner eyes. Where there's will, there's a mean.