Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[KevinB]

The distinct units seem to work for other countries, a way to increase the size of the force if required.

It really is a false economy though.

If you look at the Militia in Canada, it’s not going to be able to expand to anything meaningful.
1) Equipment is lacking worse than the Reg Force
2) A very very very slim amount of SNCO’s and Officers at Capt and above have any experience in their jobs beyond a 2 week ex.

Other countries make it work by having a real system, not some sort of pre WW2 relic.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The problem will always be that the Reserve will always be o someone else's terms and not on that for the Force Employer: be that a civilian employer, the member, the Reserve Unit, training establishments, or any other number of factors that limit how and when we use reservists effectively with Regular force formations.

Until we develop a framework to deconflict and unfuck the intricacies, it's valid COA, but nowhere near a reliable one

 

[Kirkhill]

It really is a false economy though.

If you look at the Militia in Canada, it’s not going to be able to expand to anything meaningful.
1) Equipment is lacking worse than the Reg Force
2) A very very very slim amount of SNCO’s and Officers at Capt and above have any experience in their jobs beyond a 2 week ex.

Other countries make it work by having a real system, not some sort of pre WW2 relic.

The Militia is not going to take front line places with the RCR et al.

But that doesn't mean that it can't be meaningful - even if it just has trucks (1300), small arms and tippy TAPVs. It can still be organized to serve usefully at home - in logistics, comms and security.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The Militia is not going to take front line places with the RCR et al.

But that doesn't mean that it can't be meaningful - even if it just has trucks (1300), small arms and tippy TAPVs. It can still be organized to serve usefully at home - in logistics, comms and security.

All fields that require technical expertise and mastery of your load station; and also fields in which we are struggling to recruit and retain folks with full time Reg Force employment.

There is a reason why we have very few Atts from ABC Sig Regt when we head out to door. The amount of time it takes to bring Sig Bloggins up to even a working level means the juice is not worth the squeeze.

My IS Techs trained day in and day out to become SMEs; dropping a dude who has not been working on the kit for 2 years past their DP2 is more of a piss off to them than anything else.

Similar training, job titles, and rank experience are one thing; trade mastery is another. One takes far more time and consistency than a lot of folks on the pointy end tend to realise.

 

[MilEME09]

Similar training, job titles, and rank experience are one thing; trade mastery is another. One takes far more time and consistency than a lot of folks on the pointy end tend to realise.

This right here is what grinds my gears about technical trades, and our people being pushed onto plq right after DP2. No time to become SME's or even gain useful OJT before bring expected to teach and pass on knowledge as an "expert". At one time you needed atleast three years from DP2 to plq so you can get OJT. Not any more, waivers galore cause we need leaders

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This right here is what grinds my gears about technical trades, and our people being pushed onto plq right after DP2. No time to become SME's or even gain useful OJT before bring expected to teach and pass on knowledge as an "expert". At one time you needed atleast three years from DP2 to plq so you can get OJT. Not any more, waivers galore cause we need leaders

"But Tpr McFuckFace was able to become a Recce Crew Commander in the same DP time-frame, what gives RCCS/RCEME/RCLS/RCE?"

Lots of things; the big one is thar technical training and the CFITES/StAR model are incompatible.

 

[Kirkhill]

All fields that require technical expertise and mastery of your load station; and also fields in which we are struggling to recruit and retain folks with full time Reg Force employment.

There is a reason why we have very few Atts from ABC Sig Regt when we head out to door. The amount of time it takes to bring Sig Bloggins up to even a working level means the juice is not worth the squeeze.

My IS Techs trained day in and day out to become SMEs; dropping a dude who has not been working on the kit for 2 years past their DP2 is more of a piss off to them than anything else.

Similar training, job titles, and rank experience are one thing; trade mastery is another. One takes far more time and consistency than a lot of folks on the pointy end tend to realise.

You misunderstand me.

My militia is not going to be showing up on exercise or deployment with the professionals. Full Stop.

They are going to serve entirely at home. They are going to work in a civvy supported environment.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You misunderstand me.

My militia is not going to be showing up on exercise or deployment with the professionals. Full Stop.

They are going to serve entirely at home. They are going to work in a civvy supported environment.

Dude... part timers can be professional too.

What makes you think that any civvies would want to support the militia?

 

[Kirkhill]

Dude... part timers can be professional too.

What makes you think that any civvies would want to support the militia?

You know.... you're dead right. What makes me think anybody wants to do anything?

 

[TCM621]

Maybe it's time to let the Navy press gangs start touring the local alehouses again.

To be honest, I would be afraid for our sailors at this point in time. Most of the sailors I have known couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. To be fair to the sailors though, the idea of some in the military being tough is pretty much a myth at this point. I'm amazed at how many people I work with who have never been in a fight or even an argument that got particularly heated. A significant portion of them look like they will cry if you speak harshly to them.

 

[KevinB]

The Militia is not going to take front line places with the RCR et al.

But that doesn't mean that it can't be meaningful - even if it just has trucks (1300), small arms and tippy TAPVs. It can still be organized to serve usefully at home - in logistics, comms and security.

So not an Army Reserve…
Honestly Logistics and Support as well as tech trades are areas that require significantly more regulars. Being an Infanteer as a Pte/Cpl doesn’t take a fantastic amount of training.
Eventually those PTE/CPL if deployed in a large scale conflict will either rise or die…

 

[MilEME09]

You misunderstand me.

My militia is not going to be showing up on exercise or deployment with the professionals. Full Stop.

They are going to serve entirely at home. They are going to work in a civvy supported environment.

So I guess the Cpl Vtech in my unit who is a heavy duty mechanic with 3 journeyman tickets in the field (and actually got all CAF vtrch training PLAR'ed) isn't a professional because he doesn't turn green wrenches every day?

There are massive misconceptions about reservists and what we can being to the table. You would be amazed what can be accomplished with the business mind set from civi street vs the government working mind set.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You misunderstand me.

My militia is not going to be showing up on exercise or deployment with the professionals. Full Stop.

They are going to serve entirely at home. They are going to work in a civvy supported environment.

You misunderstand me as well. Professional fields such as engineering, logistics, communications, medicine all require pers to be trained and proficient in their craft in order to be useful to anyone; that includes the civilian organizations that you claim would be there supporting the main effort domestically.

My points were to highlight that with our current training structure for the Reserves, that model would need MASSIVE amounts of risk acceptance, or conversely, a massive amount of skilled applicants we can militarized to suit the need.

Both those COAs are not viable at the moment, so I ask again, where are you drawing your pool from? How are you providing the training and proficiency needed in a specialist to make your model work even for OGDs to trust Cpl Bloggins more than Civi number 3 coming in to offer their services in a moment of crisis?

So I guess the Cpl Vtech in my unit who is a heavy duty mechanic with 3 journeyman tickets in the field (and actually got all CAF vtrch training PLAR'ed) isn't a professional because he doesn't turn green wrenches every day?

I agree with you whole heartedly that the PLAR system is broken and that starts with CFRG.

I have had PAT personnel showing up to my Troop for OJE that have more certs and credentials than I could ever hope for. When asked why they weren't coming in as a Semi-Skilled applicant and where their PLAR was, the looked at me like I had a phallus growing out of my forehead.

There is no reason for the CAF, Reg or Res F , to retrain a specialist in their craft if they have them coming in.

There are massive misconceptions about reservists and what we can being to the table. You would be amazed what can be accomplished with the business mind set from civi street vs the government working mind set.

I don't deny this at all. The problem that exists is that the training, qualifications, and experience disparity within the Reserves doesn't lend well to "every ______ an expert" that persists within the CAF when talking about CS/CSS.

 

[MilEME09]

I don't deny this at all. The problem that exists is that the training, qualifications, and experience disparity within the Reserves doesn't lend well to "every ______ an expert" that persists within the CAF when talking about CS/CSS.

I agree, however the buck stops with reg force leadership who have over all control of the ResF. Every time I hear of a new plan for the ResF, someone, usually reg force says the plan won't work, they don't try to make it work, and we end up with status quo. Any initiative will fail if those tasked with executing it do not believe it will succeed. What we need is transformation and new ideas, and someone tasked to follow through with the plan till the end, not posted to a new file after 4-6 years.

 

[MilEME09]

I agree with you whole heartedly that the PLAR system is broken and that starts with CFRG.

I have had PAT personnel showing up to my Troop for OJE that have more certs and credentials than I could ever hope for. When asked why they weren't coming in as a Semi-Skilled applicant and where their PLAR was, the looked at me like I had a phallus growing out of my forehead.

There is no reason for the CAF, Reg or Res F , to retrain a specialist in their craft if they have them coming in.

You missed my point that labeling a reservist as unprofessional because we do not do our trade 5-7 days a week is counter productive, and there are plenty of reservists who want to do their jobs if we were just enabled to do so. Be it equipment, training opportunities, or simply giving us time to practice our craft. Saying no because we are reservists shows more about a broken RegF view of the ResF as much as it shows how broken the ResF is.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I agree, however the buck stops with reg force leadership who have over all control of the ResF. Every time I hear of a new plan for the ResF, someone, usually reg force says the plan won't work, they don't try to make it work, and we end up with status quo. Any initiative will fail if those tasked with executing it do not believe ot will succeed. What we need is transformation and new ideas, and someone tasked to follow through with the plan till the end, not posted to a new file after 4-6 years.

Preaching to the converted here my dude.

I had to slam the StAR policy on the table numerous times at my last QSTP board. Working at a school and seeing Course Directors rearrage POs because they "flow better" , without understanding how that messes with the modularity of the course and the training Delta it creates for a reservist 9nly.able to come on Mod 3 and then return to school/civi work at the end of the Mod. Member doesn't get the MITE Code and then the time was all for naught.

Training Authorities never factor in the Reserves and it has been a massive detriment to everyone.

 

[Furniture]

Preaching to the converted here my dude.

I had to slam the StAR policy on the table numerous times at my last QSTP board. Working at a school and seeing Course Directors rearrage POs because they "flow better" , without understanding how that messes with the modularity of the course and the training Delta it creates for a reservist 9nly.able to come on Mod 3 and then return to school/civi work at the end of the Mod. Member doesn't get the MITE Code and then the time was all for naught.

Training Authorities never factor in the Reserves and it has been a massive detriment to everyone.

At least you have the course broken into Mods, it's a massive step in the right direction. My occupation does not, and the first two courses are 5.5 months long... We have zero ability to generate a reserve occupation, and there is strong resistance within the occupation to not break the courses into modules.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF has no understanding of the value of time. So the Reg F has too much and fritters it away; the Res F has too little, but also fritters it away.

 

[Kirkhill]

And every Canadian over the age of 16 can drive a pickup truck. Four year olds can communicate on cell phones and 2 year olds can operate computers.

Most folks can pick up the basics of point and shoot in an afternoon. And a fair number know how to operate a chain saw. First aid qualifications and CPR certification are a dime a dozen.

Tell me again how much professional training you need to pitch in and have a go when things are dire.

Shop stewards everywhere.

Am I denigrating the place of the "professional"? Aye. Mebbe I am. Given that I have spent 40 years working with the unskilled and uncredentialled, many of them who can't read English, teaching them how to operate the kit that puts the food on your table and supervise them so that they come home safe and you don't die from the Fries they make that get served at MacDonalds.

Would I want those folks fixing my car? No. Not generally. But I have found more than one capable of it. I've trained a fair number of them how to manage a wrench to perform routine sanitation and maintenance.

There is indeed a place for the professional - the person that is paid explicitly for the task they are asked to undertake - as opposed to the amateur - the person that does the same thing for the love of the thing.

So you'll not sell me on the merits of the professional attitude.

It's one thing to be proud of your trade and your accomplishments. Its another entirely to think that others can't perform equally as well without the paper.

The Ukrainians are not waiting around to certify their people or their kit. They are getting the best they can out of what is on hand.

And that includes the small number of professionals they have available to them. They are all organizing themselves and their neighbours.

And once they are finished with this Russian stramash they will return to their civvy street jobs as coders, mechanical engineers, bakers and shop keepers.



I keep hearing the Army doesn't want to do this, that and the other. Well fine. Don't. Do the things you want to do. But stand out the way and let others get on with the things you don't want to do.

You won't by trucks and chainsaws for fear it will cut into the number of Leos and K9s you can buy. And yet you freely acknowledge that you can't operate either without those trucks and chainsaws. Trucks and chainsaws that are going to experience a lot more wear and tear due to actual use than any of the tanks you ever buy.

Your Territorial Battle Groups? Keep the combat arms. Do with them as you will. 10 Combat Engineer Regiments, 10 Field Ambulances, 10 Transport Coys, 10 Signals Squadrons and 10 Command Elements would serve just fine. Add them to the Rangers.

Governments don't hire professionals because they are better than amateurs. They hire professionals because they want the service to ready at a moments notice - and they expect that when the service is provided it will be competently executed.

Given enough time and training anybody can be competent.

Kikhill, Out!

 

[rmc_wannabe]

@Kirkhill I think we keep missing one another on where we stand on this issue.

I am with you. The way we train and employ our Reserve force as "Reg Force Lite" is bullshit and has cost the CAF and taxpayer far more than it really should. I am with you that "good enough" training is fine for most trades and for others that require specialization, we should be able to have a seamless transfer of skills between civilian land and what the CAF wants to see for its skilled workers.

My point, if there was one, is that as we stand today, we don't have the mechanism to facilitate this. I am certainly not an elitist in this regard, as I scraped through high school and managed to become a Temporary Gentleman after learning the business and fucking up routinely. Folks need the ability to learn and grow and that doesn't happen solely in school or by obtaining X NQual code.

If the Russian experience has shown us anything is that there is a massive benefit to ha ing a professional force. What we have also seen from. The Ukrainian experience is the massive boon civilian professionals taking their skills and providing them for military use is, and I would hazard a month's pay that the TDF did not have to retrain doctors, comms folks, truckers, farm hands, engineers, to do it the Green way.

I think we both have common ground in the belief that the CAF, both Reg and Res F, do HR poorly, do training poorly, and do force employment t poorly with our current construct.

If we're going to see our respective forces grow, we need to not do more with less, but be more efficient with what we have. I think that's something g we both can agree on.