JTF2 & AFG (merged)

[Armymedic]

This is a case of wounded soldiers..imagine if it was the case of a KIA? Let the shite storm begin.

IMHO, DND is giving all it should. X number of JTF soldiers were wounded while conducting X operation in Y country.

In the real world, if I was injured and I don't want my name and condition released, the CF can not. It breaches confidentiality. And that has nothing to do with special forces.

 

[mdh]

Well I guess I'll be the devil's advocate here.  :-X

If there's anything the Pentagon has learned recently it's that public opinion is as instrumental in winning wars as developing strong counter-insurgency tactics. We can all be critical of the media but I'm not sure that's going to help shape public opinion and channel support for military operations.

It seems to me that one of the new phenomenon of GWOT is that the old notions of a home front and war front with regard to public opinion have been erased - Iraqi public opinion and by extension Arab popular opinion (or what used to be called the Arab Street), it turns out, is as important as American public opinion. (Hence the controversy about buying stories in Iraqi newspapers to create good news - not a bad tactic in my view - but unsustainable because that line between Iraqi and US opinion has been eroded.)

The same is true in our context - public opinion among Afghanistan's population is as critical to coalition success as domestic opinion is here. Although we can all agree on the importance of OPSEC/PERSEC, it seems to me that some explanation of what it is we're attempting to achieve through JTF2 might be useful.

Rumsfeld touched on this when he complained last week that getting the military's message out was almost impossible because of the internet, handheld cameras, instant media communications, etc. Has DND started to get its head around this?

Do we really have to go to a US military source for information about Canadian military ops? (Read the posting again: the main message left by the US spokesman in the DoD statement underscored an important public message - these SF operations are aimed at maintaining freedom in Afghanistan. Shouldn't we highlight JTF2's operations with similar messaging without compromising ops?)

After all, if we lose public support - we lose the war, period.

cheers, mdh

 

[Armymedic]

Well I guess I'll be the devil's advocate here.   :-X

The same is true in our context - public opinion among Afghanistan's population is as critical to coalition success as domestic opinion is here. Although we can all agree on the importance of OPSEC/PERSEC, it seems to me that some explanation of what it is we're attempting to achieve through JTF2 might be useful.

No need to talk about what the JTF are doing to maintain public support for our ops in Afghanistan:

http://www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/menu-en.asp

There is more then enough info on that site to talk about everything Canada is hoping to achieve. Putting out info about what our guys doing fighting in that dirty little war behind the scenes isn't going to help us any.

 

[Blakey]

Ok, here is a news release that I made up, do you think this would appease the Canadian public?
I MADE THIS NEWS RELEASE UP

News Release

Afghan and coalition forces along with members of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 (JTF 2) attacked an enemy cell in a small village north of Kandahar on Dec. 4, killing 13 enemy fighters who were reportedly responsible for a number of improvised explosive device attacks in southern Afghanistan, officials said

Three Afghan, three U.S. and two Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2) soldiers were wounded in the fighting. A seriously wounded soldier was evacuated to the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, where he's reportedly in stable condition. The remaining seven soldiers have been treated and released, officials said.

Elements of JTF 2 are deployed in Afghanistan. They comprise carefully selected and highly skilled members of the Canadian Forces who are trained and ready to carry out a wide spectrum of special operations throughout the Afghan theatre in support of the Government of Afghanistan.

The CF mission is part of Canada's contribution to the multi-national efforts in Afghanistan. The overarching goal is to help the Afghan people achieve peace by preventing their nation from relapsing into a failed state that gives terrorist and terrorist organizations a safe haven. There are significant risks involved in these missions, but CF members are fully prepared because they are well equipped, well led, and among the best trained and most experienced soldiers in the world. Canadians should be extremely proud of the work they do.

For reasons of operational security and for the safety of those Canadian Special Operations Forces members and their families , no other information on this incident or on the special operations being conducted in Afghanistan will be released


Sources: American Forces Information Services and DND.

Edited the word "satisfy" to "appease", thought it sounded better. ;D

 

[mdh]

Blakey - brilliant! - it's exactly what I had in mind 


cheers, mdh

 

[Blakey]

I gotta' go drink, ponder it...does it really matter what DND puts out? Or are we saying the Canadian public is too stupid to read between the lines? If "these" people are looking for names and address'..there barking up the wrong tree... I'm all for ATI but, when it comes to the soldiers security on the ground, I say, Fuk em.

And thats one mans opinion.

 

[CdnArtyWife]

[rant]
It seems to me that the Canadian media continues to report in a way that encourages the Canadian Joe Public to continue to see the CF as "peacekeepers". I definately feel a skewed sence of reporting. I may just be more sensitive to it now that my husband is in the CF, but it infuriates me to no end. The Canadian Forces are not just there to build schools and water treatment plants...God forbid the public realize that you actually are capable of fighting wars...let alone train for doing just that!
[/rant]


Here's hoping that the injured recover fully, sending best wishes to the families of the injured.

Edited to add:
Well done Blakey...I like it...that is exactly what we should be seeing in the media...too bad the media can't catch on!

 

[Haggis]

If I get whacked on a tour, I don't want my wife finding out about it on CBC Newsworld.

That being said, there's nothing wrong, IMO, with the CF publicizing successful SF ops AFTER THE FACT, within reasonable OPSEC/PERSEC boundaries. The public, after all, pays the bills.

 

[Good2Golf]

Blakey hit it 99% on the head...I would have just left out the name of the Med facility in Germany...don't think it adds anything more than "a coalition medical facility in Germany" IMO.

I'd really like to know what more Staples would like to know, the operators name, details of his injuries and the guy's home address.  Some people have no sense....

Duey

 

[Jarnhamar]

I haven't been keeping up with this story. Everyone is all hey did you hear about the jtf! how do you feel about that.
It drives me up the wall that these guys can't take a crap without some kind of media frenzie. A picture of some dude will come out in some country and people start picking apart what the guy has on for shoes, the fact that he has a pistol with a hammer back or that he's wearing a ring on his finger. It's insane.
It even happens with our conventional soldiers.  A LAV rolls over and theirs nationwide debates about the performance of the vehicle and skills of the driver bla bla.

When it comes to fighting abroad we sound like a bunch of children.
I'm in agreement with Haggis, I fail to see how CF publicizing successful SF ops after the fact is such an act of national security.
Is the government worried the voters might find out that our soldiers are shooting terrorists and not just building houses and having coffee?

 

[CdnArtyWife]

Is the government worried the voters might find out that our soldiers are shooting terrorists and not just building houses and having coffee?

;D

 

[stevenstaples]

I thought you might be interested in this quite reasonable Editorial from the Ottawa Citizen. -Steve

PUBLICATION:  The Ottawa Citizen
DATE:  2005.12.09
EDITION:  Final
SECTION:  News
PNAME:  Editorial
PAGE:  A18
SOURCE:  Ottawa Citizen
WORD COUNT:  271


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secrets of the force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one doubts that Canada's elite fighting forces often have to operate in the shadows, but the military must never confuse real operational secrecy with the needless cosmetic kind.

The Canadian Forces will probably never reveal the circumstances surrounding the wounding of three members of the Joint Task Force 2 special-forces unit. The incident happened in southern Afghanistan. The military won't release the three soldiers' names or hometowns, or say how they were hurt.

The military says that revealing any information could jeopardize JTF2's mission, its members, or their families. We accept that secrecy helps the unit do important work, while also enhancing the unit's reputation and status -- which in turn allows it to recruit the very best.

The problem is that if things go wrong, we who fund the military will never know. If JTF2 is given missions it can't handle, if it's underequipped, if its troops commit atrocities in the field, virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

JTF2's equipment purchases circumvent government procurement rules; its very budget is secret. Absurdly, a list of possible new names for the unit was kept secret in 2003. More, the unit's troops were photographed turning prisoners captured in Afghanistan over to U.S. troops, even though there had been no debate in Canada on whether our military should do so.

The Canadian Forces has a duty to protect troops on the ground, but when the military reflexively invokes "operational secrecy" to refuse to give Canadians information about how and on whom it uses the weapons we purchased, the secrecy has gone too far.

 

[Guest]

Mr. Staples,

I've followed you and your organisation for a   short while, reading over various views, "reports" and opinions.

I'm curious.. Have you or any other member of your "Think Tank" had any OPERATIONAL experience in the military? How about the Foreign Services?

How about any ex-MO-LITIA who happend to muster at least 3 weekends in a row...

Has anybody ever been a Street cop???

Does anybody linked to the "Polaris Inst." have any connection, whatsoever, present..or past.. with ANY International or Domestic Security or Stability Issue?

Outside of the movies, do you have any idea how a real world military works, or even how real world baddies work?

Knowing exactly who did what.. serves no   greater purpose in the grand scheme of things. At least for now.

As has been said before, by those who KNOW a few things.. our "High-Speed" community is MORE   vulnerable to privacy and security issues, than other "similar" units.

You don't really need to know.. accept it, move along.. nothing to see here.

What kind of info do you want anyway? Do you want a body count? Why would you need such information?

Our guys put thier lives on the line, they put thier families aside.. to do a dangerous and demanding job..

They don't do this for $$$.. <trust me> They don't do it to be "cool".. They don't do it because they're sadistic killers..

They do it, because unlike a perfect   NDP, socialist, fuzzy wuzzy dream world.. there are bad people with guns.. who want to make other people suffer.

These "bad men".. they don't listen to well when we put on our Canadian charm. "Eh.. like.. why don't you guys talk it over..Eh?" They don't want to "talk about it"

They want <insert whatever>, and they don't care how they get it.

See.. they know, that you CAN win an argument with a bullet.. <Shocking I know, but it's true.. and no focus group or social study program will convince them there's a "better way">

What they do listen to sometimes.. is someone with a BIGGER Gun. Even then, sometimes our guys, as much as they detest it.. have to actually SHOOT at the bad men. (In order to protect the other, good men, women and children.. ect"

Why are they doing this, because they follow the will of the People (Gov).. and the People (Gov), want world peace and stability.

This is a good thing.. The problem is.. that sometimes peace DOES come from the barrel of a gun.

Now, thanks to people like you.. Canadians don't seem to understand that anymore, because Canadians are safe, and cozy.. and protected. They have no idea on what goes on in the world, how others can use violence to meet their goals. They are unable, or unwilling to see that more often or not, VIOLENCE is the only effective tool to stop such people.

In Canada.. you call the police to stop crime..

They use thier tools.. violence.. or the threat of violence.
Without those tools.. you, Mr.Staples.. would not be safe.

It is the THREAT of violence, followed, when neccesary by the EXAMPLE of APPLIED violence.. that helps deter those who might seek to harm you, while stoping those who have already or are in the act of doing harm.



Be thankfull for .. and support those who make it possible, and try to bring such stability to others in this world.

 

[CSA]

Mr. Staples,

I've followed you and your organisation for a   short while, reading over various views, "reports" and opinions.

I'm curious.. Have you or any other member of your "Think Tank" had any OPERATIONAL experience in the military? How about the Foreign Services?

How about any ex-MO-LITIA who happend to muster at least 3 weekends in a row...

Has anybody ever been a Street cop???

Does anybody linked to the "Polaris Inst." have any connection, whatsoever, present..or past.. with ANY International or Domestic Security or Stability Issue?

Outside of the movies, do you have any idea how a real world military works, or even how real world baddies work?

Knowing exactly who did what.. serves no   greater purpose in the grand scheme of things. At least for now.

As has been said before, by those who KNOW a few things.. our "High-Speed" community is MORE   vulnerable to privacy and security issues, than other "similar" units.

You don't really need to know.. accept it, move along.. nothing to see here.

What kind of info do you want anyway? Do you want a body count? Why would you need such information?

Our guys put thier lives on the line, they put thier families aside.. to do a dangerous and demanding job..

They don't do this for $$$.. <trust me> They don't do it to be "cool".. They don't do it because they're sadistic killers..

They do it, because unlike a perfect   NDP, socialist, fuzzy wuzzy dream world.. there are bad people with guns.. who want to make other people suffer.

These "bad men".. they don't listen to well when we put on our Canadian charm. "Eh.. like.. why don't you guys talk it over..Eh?" They don't want to "talk about it"

They want <insert whatever>, and they don't care how they get it.

See.. they know, that you CAN win an argument with a bullet.. <Shocking I know, but it's true.. and no focus group or social study program will convince them there's a "better way">

What they do listen to sometimes.. is someone with a BIGGER Gun. Even then, sometimes our guys, as much as they detest it.. have to actually SHOOT at the bad men. (In order to protect the other, good men, women and children.. ect"

Why are they doing this, because they follow the will of the People (Gov).. and the People (Gov), want world peace and stability.

This is a good thing.. The problem is.. that sometimes peace DOES come from the barrel of a gun.

Now, thanks to people like you.. Canadians don't seem to understand that anymore, because Canadians are safe, and cozy.. and protected. They have no idea on what goes on in the world, how others can use violence to meet their goals. They are unable, or unwilling to see that more often or not, VIOLENCE is the only effective tool to stop such people.

In Canada.. you call the police to stop crime..

They use thier tools.. violence.. or the threat of violence.
Without those tools.. you, Mr.Staples.. would not be safe.

It is the THREAT of violence, followed, when neccesary by the EXAMPLE of APPLIED violence.. that helps deter those who might seek to harm you, while stoping those who have already or are in the act of doing harm.



Be thankfull for .. and support those who make it possible, and try to bring such stability to others in this world.

SO THERE!!!!!!
AMEN - I think you've hit the nail on the head!
 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The problem is that if things go wrong, we who fund the military will never know.

This is unique to JTF2?  Hint: Balkans, History of Canadian Operations and Casualties in.

>If JTF2 is given missions it can't handle...virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

Like the underpublicized/secret missions to Rwanda that couldn't be handled?

>If JTF2 is...underequipped...virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

Yes, there's been complete silence on equipment shortfalls for decades.

>If JTF2['s]...troops commit atrocities in the field, virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

Ah.  Here we have, I believe, the heart of the recent public regard for the welfare and activities of JTF2.

>JTF2's equipment purchases circumvent government procurement rules; its very budget is secret.

Pots of money not subject to scrutiny and moving quickly through the system - a first for Canadian governments, no doubt.

I notice a trend here.  These concerns aren't necessarily specific to JTF2 at all.  So, we can drop the JTF2 fiction and situate the debate squarely where it belongs: the entire CF and our defence policy.  I expect the same result: support a thousand editorials wide and a single sheet of budget paper deep.  It'd be novel to know that the information would actually be used productively, but I suspect it'd be a trolling exercise punctuated by triumphant rounds of masochistic self-loathing over how evil we are.

>More, the unit's troops were photographed turning prisoners captured in Afghanistan over to U.S. troops, even though there had been no debate in Canada on whether our military should do so.

Confirmation of my suspicion.  I look forward with bated amusement to the day we have a public debate on all routine aspects of military operations - who is in the supply chain, where the logistical installations go, who runs the PoW holding facilities, rules of engagement, etc, etc.  It should be enough work that there will be no time for any other form of government busymindedness, ever.

Prove me wrong.  Equip the CF, give it a mission it can handle, stand behind it when things go poorly and not just when things are peachy, and don't hide casualties behind euphemisms and outright silence.  Prove there is more substance here than just a ghoulish interest in JTF2 and a fishing expedition to find another reason to complain about our neighbours.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I thought you might be interested in this quite reasonable Editorial from the Ottawa Citizen. -Steve

PUBLICATION:   The Ottawa Citizen
DATE:   2005.12.09
EDITION:   Final
SECTION:   News
PNAME:   Editorial
PAGE:   A18
SOURCE:   Ottawa Citizen
WORD COUNT:   271


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secrets of the force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one doubts that Canada's elite fighting forces often have to operate in the shadows, but the military must never confuse real operational secrecy with the needless cosmetic kind.

The Canadian Forces will probably never reveal the circumstances surrounding the wounding of three members of the Joint Task Force 2 special-forces unit. The incident happened in southern Afghanistan. The military won't release the three soldiers' names or hometowns, or say how they were hurt.

The military says that revealing any information could jeopardize JTF2's mission, its members, or their families. We accept that secrecy helps the unit do important work, while also enhancing the unit's reputation and status -- which in turn allows it to recruit the very best.

The problem is that if things go wrong, we who fund the military will never know. If JTF2 is given missions it can't handle, if it's underequipped, if its troops commit atrocities in the field, virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

JTF2's equipment purchases circumvent government procurement rules; its very budget is secret. Absurdly, a list of possible new names for the unit was kept secret in 2003. More, the unit's troops were photographed turning prisoners captured in Afghanistan over to U.S. troops, even though there had been no debate in Canada on whether our military should do so.

The Canadian Forces has a duty to protect troops on the ground, but when the military reflexively invokes "operational secrecy" to refuse to give Canadians information about how and on whom it uses the weapons we purchased, the secrecy has gone too far.

The lies in the article don't bother me. The odious insinuation above does. Tell me you had nothing to do with this Stephen ...

 

[Jarnhamar]

The problem is that if things go wrong, we who fund the military will never know.

We the average citizen?  I have a hell of a lot of confidence in the average canadian who vote the liberals in and bleet while they steal money from our pockets  :

JTF2's equipment purchases circumvent government procurement rules

Buy from quebec first?

More, the unit's troops were photographed turning prisoners captured in Afghanistan over to U.S. troops, even though there had been no debate in Canada on whether our military should do so.

How is this the decision of joe blow canadian?
Why should Mr and Mrs Khadir decide what happens to prisoners?

 

[Guest]

Ya.. lets have the guy down the street draw up the ROE

"Ummm.. lesse... don't shoot.. unless you are shot first, and you shout out 3 warnings.. make sure you use the phrase " Stop it..no.. this time I mean it.. No, really..I'm not kidding.. I'll do it..." (To be read in 3 languages.. + French) ..and   make sure you are at least 5 kms from any urban area.. and there are no cameras... and he has a bomb.. no, scratch that.. UNLESS he has a nuclear bomb. and finaly.. make sure you CALL the PMO's office as well"

"When you capture prisoners.. make sure you give them a stern lecture.. and then hand them over to their parents."

Oh yea.. hand out Canadian flags too..

Mr.Staples.. pls think about what you are suggesting

There was a conflict, when politicians and their advisors thought they could RUN a war.. it was called Vietnam.

There was also a place were ROEs were   written by those not interested in actually doing anything.. The Balkans.

(And make no mistake Mr. Staples.. we ARE in a war, we are helping a battered bruised country to prosper.. it's a noble goal.. our "enemies" killed or supported the deaths of thousands of their fellow Muslims, as well as thousands of citizens in the US and more than 100 fellow Canadians.

WE are fighting a JUST and important battle.. if Afghanistan falls back to Taliban or warlord brutality.. we will have failed in our so-called lofty ideals of freedom, prosperity and democracy.

We've been chastising the world for FAR too long, hiding behind the UN's ineffectual skirt.
It's time to put up.. or shut up.


I don't know what goes in to Urban Planing.. so I don't expect to be consulted on how to build a city.

So why should the lady (or my MP for that matter)   down the street decide HOW the CF conducts it's business. Leave that to the higher pay grades.


The only thing that should possibly be up for debate. " Do we contribute to world peace and security, using force when needed or not"

How it is done should be left to those who know how it works.

As far as what we do with prisoners... WTF?!?

If I had my way.. there would'nt be any.  

Does that shock you Mr.Staples?.. Offended your sensibilities???

Well, because of my "offensive attitude".. somebodys son, mother or daughter just may not get a knock on the door, someone might NOT get blown up on the way to school.

See.. THATS the reality.. if you TRUELY want real peace and harmony in the world. you have to go out.. find the bad apples.. and squish em.

BTW, you are officially welcome to come over to the 'stan and hang out for awhile.

 

[KevinB]

I thought you might be interested in this quite reasonable Editorial from the Ottawa Citizen. -Steve

PUBLICATION:  The Ottawa Citizen
DATE:  2005.12.09
EDITION:  Final
SECTION:  News
PNAME:  Editorial
PAGE:  A18
SOURCE:  Ottawa Citizen
WORD COUNT:  271


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secrets of the force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one doubts that Canada's elite fighting forces often have to operate in the shadows, but the military must never confuse real operational secrecy with the needless cosmetic kind.

The Canadian Forces will probably never reveal the circumstances surrounding the wounding of three members of the Joint Task Force 2 special-forces unit. The incident happened in southern Afghanistan. The military won't release the three soldiers' names or hometowns, or say how they were hurt.

The military says that revealing any information could jeopardize JTF2's mission, its members, or their families. We accept that secrecy helps the unit do important work, while also enhancing the unit's reputation and status -- which in turn allows it to recruit the very best.

The problem is that if things go wrong, we who fund the military will never know. If JTF2 is given missions it can't handle, if it's underequipped, if its troops commit atrocities in the field, virtually no means exist for the Canadian public to find out.

JTF2's equipment purchases circumvent government procurement rules; its very budget is secret. Absurdly, a list of possible new names for the unit was kept secret in 2003. More, the unit's troops were photographed turning prisoners captured in Afghanistan over to U.S. troops, even though there had been no debate in Canada on whether our military should do so.

The Canadian Forces has a duty to protect troops on the ground, but when the military reflexively invokes "operational secrecy" to refuse to give Canadians information about how and on whom it uses the weapons we purchased, the secrecy has gone too far.

Reasonable to WHO?

Sorry Steve who ever thinks that is reasonable is a whack job, or is living life thru either an opium stupor or some pretty hefty rose coloured glasses. 

Secondly to suggest or slimily insinuate that atrocities could be conducted -- I sure hope that whomever has the power or momey to take offence to this officially sues the writer,editor and paper that printed it.


  You've lost all credibility with me, I'd trust the afghani that tried to steal my luggage this morning more...
I

 

[Sf2]

It seems to me that the only ones complaining that they aren't getting the full story is the MEDIA.  Do any of you honestly think that Joe Blow taxpayer can't sleep at night because he doesn't know the names or addresses of those wounded, or what kind of weapons his tax dollars are buying for JTF2?

MEDIA - you don't, and will never understand what it takes to do this job.