JTF2 & AFG (merged)

[paracowboy]

Irregardless in some respects since the standard we are holding ourselves to, is much higher, and THAT is being explained.

exactly. Our ROEs are based on Canadian Law. As long as the troops understand the ROEs, they will not violate any of the various Conventions or Rules.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Hey Para: Sorry to inform you but there's meat and two veg under this scotsman's tartan, and there's no change in my sporran.

I would suggest as a likely politically expedient solution for "Cantanamo" somewhere in Newfoundland-Labrador like Oh let's say Goose Bay. You could kill 2 birds with one stone by surveilling said detainees with that new Conservative UAV Sqn .

It is good to know that we have the utmost standards applied to our conduct at all times, although it must make a night out on the town pretty boring (2 beers and all) but I still have a personal issue with extra-judicial detention and subsequent extradition.

As far as I understand Guantanamo is considered more like a piece of property than sovereign American soil. There is a very preferential permanent lease but it is viewed as illegitimate by Castro.  Check out http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay  for a better explanation

I do have a question though with respect to the Law of Armed Conflict course and the trickle down training. Does this approach degrade the quality of information if it is not presented by original course providers?

Please do not take any insult from this question, for none is intended.

 

[paracowboy]

I do have a question though with respect to the Law of Armed Conflict course and the trickle down training. Does this approach degrade the quality of information if it is not presented by original course providers?

no more so than the Section Attack training degrades if not presented by the Infantry School. Etc. Material is taught to those who will instruct others, using the same material. Just like everything else we do. Train the Trainer. Fastest method of dissemination.
Using our Section Attack again, I've done them with The RCR, Van Doos, and PPCLI now, and several Reservists from many different units. Never had a misunderstanding.
That's why we have SOPs and Standards set in one location, and everyone meets them. Foah just such an emuhgency.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No, as one at the lower end of the trickle, they will teach/tell/order me the parts that will be applicable to the task that I will be asigned.
At my end I don't need to know that they will get fried chicken every third Wednesday.......

Posted it anyway......wish I were young and swift like Para.

 

[Cloud Cover]

However many still don't know the dif between the Hague Conventions/Rules of Landwarfare and the Geneva...

Irregardless in some respects since the standard we are holding ourselves to, is much higher, and THAT is being explained.

Are you referring to the AJAG?

 

[Kirkhill]

It didn't take the Nuremberg trials this long to  wrap up, and that was a trial for men who killed millions. Why is it taking so long to render a decision on their fate?

Sheikyerbouti:  In 1945 men that had been detained since 1939 were released from confinement.  They received no trial.  They were held without due process.  They were prisoners of war and held for the duration of the conflict.  The conflict ends. Their command structure says they have put down their weapons.  Mutual threat ends.  Soldiers go home.

Assuming that these people see themselves as soldiers and see Osama or one of his associates as their leader why wouldn't we keep them detained, (fed and watered as necessary) until Osama cries "Uncle"?

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Thats a given Kirkhill that the prisoners were released upon the conclusion of conflict. In fact my departed Step-Grandpa was interned in the prairies for a while and never resented his treatment. I disagree that they were held without due process as I am sure that most prisoners were apprised of their situation and their entitlements to things such as care packages or 200 smokes a month or what have you.

The problem is that this "war" we are in is not about to go away. Reports are surfacing that Al-Qaeda is preparing a 3rd generation of fighters and with our new re-definition of terrorists groups like Hamas or the PKK it appears we will never see an end, at least not in our lifetimes. So do these guys deserve to be interned for the rest of their lives? I say no. We cannot exercise abitrary judgment over the fate of these men especially given the likelihood of their long term internment being exploited for recruitment purposes by the groups we are trying to fight.

Besides, an equally important factor is the costs associated over the long term with supporting our actions. There will come a time when priorities change our outlook on the matter. This seems to me to be the primary factor in our newfound 3-d approach, if we are to spend so much time and effort on a certain course of action then why not have clear goals that define and shape our presence. Eventually we will want to see those swords turned into ploughshares.

 

[paracowboy]

Thats a given Kirkhill that the prisoners were released upon the conclusion of conflict. In fact my departed Step-Grandpa was interned in the prairies for a while and never resented his treatment. I disagree that they were held without due process as I am sure that most prisoners were apprised of their situation and their entitlements to things such as care packages or 200 smokes a month or what have you.

irrelevent. WW II Axis soldiers met the requirements for PW status, under the various Conventions nd Laws of Warfare prevalent. Again, these murdering thugs do not.

We cannot exercise abitrary judgment over the fate of these men especially given the likelihood of their long term internment being exploited for recruitment purposes by the groups we are trying to fight.

yes, actually we can. And have. And will continue to do so as long as they raise arms our citizens. We can, because they are captured in the process of planning, supporting, or carrying out terrorist actions.

Besides, an equally important factor is the costs associated over the long term with supporting our actions. There will come a time when priorities change our outlook on the matter.

and the cost of not supporting our actions? Hundreds of thousands of innocents dead, the remainder living under a theocratic tyranny, and no Jews alive on the planet. (Extreme yes, but that is the goal of our enemies.)

This seems to me to be the primary factor in our newfound 3-d approach, if we are to spend so much time and effort on a certain course of action then why not have clear goals that define and shape our presence.

we do. Democratic governments in every nation on Earth, with Free-Enterprise economies, all based on a system that the citizens of those nations are comfortable with. Clear-cut, long-term goals. Very long-term.

Eventually we will want to see those swords turned into ploughshares.

not eventually. Now. But, our choice is simple: fight for what is Right, or capitulate and surrender everything our ancestors fought to establish and preserve.
We are more than willing to stop fighting. But, our enemies are not. They have proven this time and again.

 

[KevinB]

...those swords turned into ploughshares.

Shall till the fields for those who did not...  ;D

 

[sheikyerbouti]

I will eventually have to figure out the quote function but I understand quite clearly the goal of the Caliphate.

We wil never back down but neither will the bad guys as long as they perceive inequities. It is reasonable to assume that Hakmed Durka-durk might resent the presence of millions of dollars worth of military vehicles and people driving down his rutted street, past his mal-nourished, poorly educated nieces and nephews.

If people only know war and are led to believe they must fight to regain control over their own lives, then how can we expect things to change? We must fight fire with salvation and hope.

With respect to the costs involved, why wasn't Rwanda or Biafra an issue? Or Chechnya or Armenia? the list goes on...
For too long we only sought to intervene on our own terms not those of the marginalized crying for help.

 

[KevinB]

With respect to the costs involved, why wasn't Rwanda or Biafra an issue? Or Chechnya or Armenia? the list goes on...
For too long we only sought to intervene on our own terms not those of the marginalized crying for help.

Blame the politicians the troops where (and are) willing to go...

WRT your other comments - that why paracowboy, myself and several other posters have been arguing the use of light vehicle and primairly a LIGHT Infantry presence - you walk around get the know the locals.  None of us are saying that we do not care about the health and welfare of the local populace.  Showing you care and interacting with them you will win the hearts and minds and they will work with you to eliminate those who would attempt to keep them subjegated.

How ever we are the tip of the sword, we are not CARE CANADA, all the NGO's and CE assets (where the US are way ahead of us with the Army Corps of Engineers and USN SeeBee's) are part of that, we can help them with other matters (local defence and removal of scourges like the drug lords and insurgenets).  It has to be a full meal deal for reconstruction.

Boxing up in armour will do exactly what the insurgents want - make us an alien entity to the populace.  They will then be able to conduct operations against us much easier - and perhaps with help...

 

[paracowboy]

this is starting to turn into the same discussion we've had umpteen times on how to win the War on Terror. (HEY! I didn't make up the name, guys, so don't start on me. everybody knows what I'm, referring to when I use it.)
We've all agreed on Hearts and Minds where possible, Guns and Guts where necessary. Bandages for those who need them, and bodybags, likewise.

 

[Gunner]

Hearts and Minds where possible, Guns and Guts where necessary.

http://www.almostaproverb.com/videos/diplomacy.swf

 

[George Wallace]

  The problem is that this "war" we are in is not about to go away. Reports are surfacing that Al-Qaeda is preparing a 3rd generation of fighters and with our new re-definition of terrorists groups like Hamas or the PKK it appears we will never see an end, at least not in our lifetimes. So do these guys deserve to be interned for the rest of their lives? I say no. We cannot exercise abitrary judgment over the fate of these men especially given the likelihood of their long term internment being exploited for recruitment purposes by the groups we are trying to fight.

Besides, an equally important factor is the costs associated over the long term with supporting our actions. There will come a time when priorities change our outlook on the matter. This seems to me to be the primary factor in our newfound 3-d approach, if we are to spend so much time and effort on a certain course of action then why not have clear goals that define and shape our presence. Eventually we will want to see those swords turned into ploughshares.

We are not playing "Fishing" here.  We do not subscribe to the "Catch and Release Program".  As you said we are at War.  This war will not go away very soon.  Have you read any of the Michael Yon Blogs?  http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/  He gives examples of what happens when you use the "Catch and Release" methods.  People get killed.  More money is spent chasing down and apprehending the same murderers over and over again as they continue to make terrorist attacks.  More deaths to Coallition Troops and the General Public.  As we do not use Vigilante Justice, and see Terrorists released by the Iraqi Justice system, the problem continues.  They go back to their 'old' ways and people die. 

Is it cheaper to imprison these murdering thugs, or allow them free reign to terrorize and kill, calling upon more time and effort to track them down over and over again?  Will that bring any resolution to the problem?  How do you expect the Region to 'stabilize' if we don't imprison these murderers?

 

[paracowboy]

We wil never back down but neither will the bad guys as long as they perceive inequities. It is reasonable to assume that Hakmed Durka-durk might resent the presence of millions of dollars worth of military vehicles and people driving down his rutted street, past his mal-nourished, poorly educated nieces and nephews.

as KevB said. But, Abdul Q. Public also sees the presence of millions of dollars worth of military vehicles and people arresting/killing those who make his family's life unsafe. He sees the presence of millions of dollars worth of military vehicles and people digging wells, building hospitals & schools, and playing soccer with children. (Note to anyone relevent: make sure your security team is watching their arcs. It's less embarrassing when the kids make you look slow and stupid, and they won't see you take your own rifle muzzle in the eye.  :)

If people only know war and are led to believe they must fight to regain control over their own lives, then how can we expect things to change? We must fight fire with salvation and hope.

uuuhh, yeah, we know that. That's why we do that. But, we can only do so much, as KevB said. Our role is to kill people, blow stuff up, and make a Safe and Secure Environment, so the tree-huggers and granola-munchers can do their thing without losing their heads.

With respect to the costs involved, why wasn't Rwanda or Biafra an issue? Or Chechnya or Armenia? the list goes on

ask our government and the apathetic Canadian populace. Every troop I know is willing to go anywhere, and kill anyone who needs it.

For too long we only sought to intervene on our own terms not those of the marginalized crying for help

and the money do run around the world to every shitehole in Africa, South-East Asia, Central America, South America, the Middle East, and make life better will come from? And where do we start? Who deserves it more?
The CF's job isn't to be World Police or Doctors Without Borders. The government's role isn't to take care of other nation's populations. Their job is to promote/protect Canadian interests. We're killin' Jihadis because they brought the fight to us. It's in the interests of Canada to make them dead before they make our citizens suffer more than they have already.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Short and sweet...

What if it is in our Canadian interests to be MSF or world police? Lead by example and the rest shall follow.

 

[paracowboy]

Short and sweet...

What if it is in our Canadian interests to be MSF or world police?

it isn't. Or we would have.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

umm...
http:/www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/cip-pic/current_discussions/afghan-ips-en.asp

or

http:/www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports/dps/main/intro_e.asp#1

Both of these sites make multiple references to Canada's military role being reshaped to better reflect the current security climate. It just seems the CF is innately better capable to meet these comprehensive demands.

 

[plattypuss]

Saw this headline in my military news summary however I cannot gain access to Globe and Mail website to read the story.  Anyone have any information?

 

[stukirkpatrick]

an article has been posted on the CBC regarding this incident.  Hopefully the hospitalized soldier will make a full recovery http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/12/07/afghanistan_cdn051207.html