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Infantry Vehicles

I don't want to speak too much for the Engineers, but if they are going to support a Battalion with a squadron then they are going to arrive with leadership and a coord centre to plug into the supported battalion.

Probably a tangent thread split, but the Russo-Ukrainian War is probably a good reminder that for much of our operational history we never saw Engineers below the brigade level and that even brigade was a bit of a stretch.
 
Probably a tangent thread split, but the Russo-Ukrainian War is probably a good reminder that for much of our operational history we never saw Engineers below the brigade level and that even brigade was a bit of a stretch.
I think that the first time we saw engineers at the brigade level was when an independent engineer squadron was attached to 25 Inf Bde in Korea. After that the 27th Inf Bde for NATO also had an independent fd squadron. It seems as a development related to the move away from Canada fielding a division. The same was true of artillery which slipped into the bde structure. Post Korea, when 1 Div actually existed it was never really a true division but rather an aggregate of brigade group resources even though there was doctrine to the contrary.
The long service professional is an interesting capability to plan around. For peacetime operations just short of large scale combat operations it has a lot of merits but when looking at both the casualty rates and mobilization requirements for LSCO the long service professional armies have not historically been able to maintain that experience base much past around 12 months in contact before it’s been heavily depleted and diluted.
This is why I argue for a reformed ARes that is designed to get the most out of a continuous flow of young people of which only a small number at lower levels are kept to fill junior leader roles at both the NCM and offr level while RegF fill the enduring higher knowledge and experience positions. One needs a decentralized system already built and proficient at recruiting and training at volume that can be more easily ramped up when required.

🍻
 
In an LSCO context, how much of a distinction would there be between a guard/cover and a highly dispersed defense?
I will start with some doctrine geekiness.

A Guard is a task to protect the main force by fighting to gain time along with observing and reporting. A guard can be in front or on the flanks, and can be for a static or mobile main force. A Cover operates apart from the main force and intercepts/delays/etc the enemy before it can attack the main force. A guard operates with the fire support (and other support) of the protected force, while a cover should have its own dedicated fire support. Both the Guard and Cover differ from the Screen in that the Screen only provides warning (and maybe some counter-reconnaissance).

A Battle Group would be a typical Guard for a Division. A Brigade Group (ie - has its own Fire Support and Fmn-level combat support/service support) could be a possible Cover for a higher formation.

Keeping in mind that a guard or cover can support a higher formation conducting either offensive or defensive tasks, based on your question I will focus on the defence. To the rifleman in the back of a LAV the distinction between a guard and a mobile defence might be moot. Their battle might look remarkably similar. A guard or cover, though, will not generally be seeking decisive engagement. A mobile defence, though, may well have to become decisively engaged to achieve its task. To your question about a highly dispersed defence, all elements will try to achieve dispersion while still achieving mutual support. A guard or cover will likely have more dispersion/troop density than a defence because there is some economy of effort going on.

As to how it would play out on the ground, a mech infantry platoon in a guard force will likely have numerous positions prepared ahead of time as opposed to a single fully-developed defensive position. The guard force commander would be likely trying to engage the enemy at maximum range to achieve the most disruption and avoid becoming decisively engaged. They might be conducting ambushes on enemy reconnaissance elements at established small kill zones. The guard force commander would use his own reconnaissance assets to identify enemy elements and then move his own combat elements to engage them, leveraging tank and long-range ATGMs in addition to supporting artillery from the protected formation.

The guard task would come with some constraints and restraints to guide the commander in how decisively-engaged he can become. Barring other information, I would not expect the riflemen in a guard force to be firing their small arms all that much as compared to an area or mobile defence.

The LAV 6 bring mobility, protection and firepower to a guard. The 25mm can really contribute in such a battle in ways that something like an M113 or ACSV would not. Getting stuck, of course, would be a disaster. This can happen to any vehicle, and having thrown a track in a delay as the last one through an obstacle belt I know the feeling of being the last stand.
 
Sure, if we were fighting in red outfits in one big extended line with rifles.
But not when adapting to more tech, more information to manage, and more complicated or varied, potentially longer-ranged or more potent, armament, all at lower levels than previously, i.e., when the current company construct was created?
 
But not when adapting to more tech, more information to manage, and more complicated or varied, potentially longer-ranged or more potent, armament, all at lower levels than previously, i.e., when the current company construct was created?
If it gets too small and for some reason more things are pushed down rather than concentrated up (eg. into combat support), the infantry company becomes a collection of crewed systems. There probably still need to be some riflemen in there, if only as integral backups for casualties, LoB, absent for other reasons, etc.
 
Should pioneers get any form of heavy equipment (Bobcats, backhoes) for prepping fortifications, etc?
To me the Pioneer Platoon should be a "Mimic" of the Battalion/Bde it is part of, as so should the Combat Engineers (with a lot more stuff)
So for a LAV Battalion that would mean some sort of LAV based Engineering vehicle combination -
Down here the M1257 Stryker 2.0 Engineering Squad Vehicle isn't a good fit for (IMHO) a LAV unit - it has a straight plow blade for surface clearing - mine rollers. Generally any other Engineering equipment is towed behind the Stryker SEV. It generally works down here for what the Strykers are envisioned for - but for Canada using the LAV as an IFV, it could work for the LAV BN but not for the CER's due to the tank aspects.

A backhoe and trench cutter would be IMHO a good addition for that role -- so probably 2-3 different LAV SEV designs should be configured for Canada (IMHO)

The M1132 was the older Stryker (single V hull) SEV, about 50% of those donated to Ukraine have been destroyed
 
I will start with some doctrine geekiness.

A Guard is a task to protect the main force by fighting to gain time along with observing and reporting. A guard can be in front or on the flanks, and can be for a static or mobile main force. A Cover operates apart from the main force and intercepts/delays/etc the enemy before it can attack the main force. A guard operates with the fire support (and other support) of the protected force, while a cover should have its own dedicated fire support. Both the Guard and Cover differ from the Screen in that the Screen only provides warning (and maybe some counter-reconnaissance).

A Battle Group would be a typical Guard for a Division. A Brigade Group (ie - has its own Fire Support and Fmn-level combat support/service support) could be a possible Cover for a higher formation.

Keeping in mind that a guard or cover can support a higher formation conducting either offensive or defensive tasks, based on your question I will focus on the defence. To the rifleman in the back of a LAV the distinction between a guard and a mobile defence might be moot. Their battle might look remarkably similar. A guard or cover, though, will not generally be seeking decisive engagement. A mobile defence, though, may well have to become decisively engaged to achieve its task. To your question about a highly dispersed defence, all elements will try to achieve dispersion while still achieving mutual support. A guard or cover will likely have more dispersion/troop density than a defence because there is some economy of effort going on.

As to how it would play out on the ground, a mech infantry platoon in a guard force will likely have numerous positions prepared ahead of time as opposed to a single fully-developed defensive position. The guard force commander would be likely trying to engage the enemy at maximum range to achieve the most disruption and avoid becoming decisively engaged. They might be conducting ambushes on enemy reconnaissance elements at established small kill zones. The guard force commander would use his own reconnaissance assets to identify enemy elements and then move his own combat elements to engage them, leveraging tank and long-range ATGMs in addition to supporting artillery from the protected formation.

The guard task would come with some constraints and restraints to guide the commander in how decisively-engaged he can become. Barring other information, I would not expect the riflemen in a guard force to be firing their small arms all that much as compared to an area or mobile defence.

The LAV 6 bring mobility, protection and firepower to a guard. The 25mm can really contribute in such a battle in ways that something like an M113 or ACSV would not. Getting stuck, of course, would be a disaster. This can happen to any vehicle, and having thrown a track in a delay as the last one through an obstacle belt I know the feeling of being the last stand.
Thank-you very much for that- quite informative.

You seem to have guessed the direction I was going with the question- which was the gainful employment of tankless Canadian Lav Bn's and/or tank limited Canadian CMBG's in LSCO.

Could CMBG consisting of a LAV Bn+ Cav Sqn BG and LAV Bn+Tank Squadron + CS join with a Latvian CVRT/Patria Bde to fight a "cover" where the higher formation doesn't exist, they're just bleeding a Russian advance and stalling for time for say, an encirclement coming out of Poland?
 
Thank-you very much for that- quite informative.

You seem to have guessed the direction I was going with the question- which was the gainful employment of tankless Canadian Lav Bn's and/or tank limited Canadian CMBG's in LSCO.

Could CMBG consisting of a LAV Bn+ Cav Sqn BG and LAV Bn+Tank Squadron + CS join with a Latvian CVRT/Patria Bde to fight a "cover" where the higher formation doesn't exist, they're just bleeding a Russian advance and stalling for time for say, an encirclement coming out of Poland?
What you are describing is more of a defence with the intent of fixing an attacking force to enable an attack by another force.

I don't want to get too specific regarding potential real-world situations. I will say that units and formations fight as part of a higher plan. We have a Canadian-led multinational eFP Bde in Latvia along with a Latvian Mech Bde. There is an MND-North and an MNC-NE etc etc.

Could an additional LAV Bn (or BG) be surged into the eFP Bde? Sure? It would take some real logistical heavy lifting. LAV battalions are always going be useful in a theatre due to their mobility and flexibility. Formations without tanks, though, will have to be assigned tasks or attachments commensurate with their capabilities. Which is true of all forces but there it is.

I am not sure what a Cav Sqn BG is if we are talking about the here and now?
 
What you are describing is more of a defence with the intent of fixing an attacking force to enable an attack by another force.

I don't want to get too specific regarding potential real-world situations. I will say that units and formations fight as part of a higher plan. We have a Canadian-led multinational eFP Bde in Latvia along with a Latvian Mech Bde. There is an MND-North and an MNC-NE etc etc.

Could an additional LAV Bn (or BG) be surged into the eFP Bde? Sure? It would take some real logistical heavy lifting. LAV battalions are always going be useful in a theatre due to their mobility and flexibility. Formations without tanks, though, will have to be assigned tasks or attachments commensurate with their capabilities. Which is true of all forces but there it is.

I am not sure what a non-tank Cav Sqn BG is if we are talking about the here and now?
As an aside to his Cav BG I'd love to get your perspective on possible Cav force employment in a BG context and your magic wand approach/views to the Cav Squadron. You seem to be the senior blackhatter here by far lol.
 
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What you are describing is more of a defence with the intent of fixing an attacking force to enable an attack by another force.

I don't want to get too specific regarding potential real-world situations. I will say that units and formations fight as part of a higher plan. We have a Canadian-led multinational eFP Bde in Latvia along with a Latvian Mech Bde. There is an MND-North and an MNC-NE etc etc.

Could an additional LAV Bn (or BG) be surged into the eFP Bde? Sure? It would take some real logistical heavy lifting. LAV battalions are always going be useful in a theatre due to their mobility and flexibility. Formations without tanks, though, will have to be assigned tasks or attachments commensurate with their capabilities. Which is true of all forces but there it is.

I am not sure what a Cav Sqn BG is if we are talking about the here and now?
Thanks again- my ignorance shows. Wasn't so much thinking of a surge alteration to the status quo as I was musing conceptually about what role a current/near future "intact" CMBG could play, and whether it's worth the Army shaping itself to play said role.

There was a version of that post where Cav Sqn had an asterisk linking to clause describing a hypothetical near future where the RCAC picks it's horse for a non MBT "Medium Cavalry" vehicle that is capable of providing novel capability (firepower) to a LAV Bn. Jaguar, LAV 700 Desert Viper, Booker, status quo LRSS- whatever, discussion for a different thread. A BG built around a LAV Bn plus a non MBT RCAC squadron.
 
Communications problems on the battlefield are not a new problem. The solution has always been the same - more autonomy.

The Experimental Corps of Riflemen operated dispersed in pairs. Commands were issued by bugle and whistle because drums were cumbersome and couldn't be heard over long distances in a noisy battle. Riflemen were expected to show initiative. This contrasted with the lines of Redcoats marching in close order within the sound of the drums. They were expected to do exactly what they were told.

150 years after the Experimental Corps Field Marshal Montgomery said of another experimental corps, the Parachute Regiment, that every man had a Field Marshal's baton in his pack. Every para, like the rifleman, was expected to show initiative. Even if the battalion was reduced to one solitary private then that private was expected to "Charlie Mike" and complete the battalion's mission, fulfilling the commander's intent, to the best of his ability.

In the interval between the Paras and the Rifles sits WW1 and two circulars printed and distributed by the British Army's Stationary Service in 1917, in the aftermath of the Somme, once all the new gadgets had been introduced: SS135 “Instructions for the training of divisions for offensive action, 1917“ and SS143 “Instructions for the training of platoons for offensive action, 1917

I argue that SS143 was not evolutionary. It was revolutionary. Issued in February 1917 it marked a distinct dividing line between the army of Redcoat columns turned khaki and the modern army based upon Lieutenants, Mission Command and the paraphernalia of the industrial war machine. The Combined Arms platoon with bombs and bullets, capable of acting independently of Command for a period of hours, looking after its own defensive needs and, crucially operating independently of instruction. Autonomously to use a word in vogue.

...

SS135 says that a platoon, under the control of a small HQ can vary in size from 28 to 44 ORs. The ORs are split into 4 sections of 7 to 11 under the control of a single NCO reporting to the platoon's HQ. Internal communications were by voice and runner. External communications, from platoon to brigade were patchy enough as to be non-existent. Circumstances demanded that the Platoon Leader be left to get on with the job on his own terms, implementing the Commander's Intent to the best of his ability.

SS135 also says that if the platoon drops below 28 effectives then the platoon as a whole is ineffective. Why is that? What did those ORs contribute to the Ops Plan? Were they mules or spare Platoon Leaders? Were they valuable for what they could do, or what they carried?

...

Humans are electrified in the truest sense of the word. With every step, muscle contraction and reaction in our cells, our bodies produce energy. At rest, the human body generates an average of 100 watts of output. During sports activities, it reaches 300 to 400 watts. That’s the equivalent of burning 2,000 calories a day (~8 MJ),

Or a quarter of a liter of JP-8 or half a pound of butter. Invest that much energy and you get a couch potato playing video games. Put a 60 lb pack on her back and you need to add another half pound of butter to supply her with 4000 calories. Send her north into the snow and put her in the traces of a pulk and give her a pair of snow shoes and she needs 10000 calories a day. She now needs 2 and a half pounds of butter. Or muktuk. And gets tired. Demanding rest every day and withdrawal for extended rest after about 3 days.

Those basic mechanics have plagued humanity for ever.

The more you carried the more you needed to carry as food and the less "useful" stuff you could carry. And the more you carried the more rest you needed. MTOW, Payload and Range.

Dogs were a godsend. You could put them in the traces and ride the pulk and revert to couch potato status again.

Rumour has it that one word used by some native north Americans for "horse" is "big dog". Dogs, horses, internal combustion engines or electric motors all of them are interchangeable. All of them are filling in Redcoats carrying muskets and bullets. All of them are filling in for ORs in the 1917 Platoon. They can carry bombs, bullets, rifle grenades, rations and water and extend the range of the autonomous platoon.

Curiously they can also decrease the autonomy of the platoon because the platoon can now afford to carry around a ruddy great radio that will communicate with the Platoon Leader's boss half a planet away and allow the Leader of the Free World to observe her operation on the big screen while sitting on a couch with a coffee in hand. Zero excess calories expended by the LOTFW.

....

In 1815 it took a battalion of Redcoats to have a noticeable effect.
In 1915 it took a platoon acting autonomously to have a noticeable effect.
In 1945 one well placed individual dropped into a useful area and acting autonomously could have a noticeable effect.
In 2025 we have machines that can act autonomously and have a noticeable effect.

The same machines can also replace the dogs in the traces of the pulks.

...

The real advantage of the machine to the soldier in the field is that it increases the useful load available to the soldier. It increases the range of the soldier. And it can be adapted to the demands of the environment.

....

Back to the autonomous platoon of 1917.

Is the assertion that you need a minimum of 28 people to achieve a given objective still valid? What if we assumed that the ORs under the command of the NCO were only there to permit the NCO to achieve his mission and that his mission was set by the Platoon Leader?

Suppose the Platoon were reduced to a Platoon Leader, his 2ic and 4 NCOs and some intelligent dogs, or autonomous machines, or even just some bright MRZRs (The Platoon is starting to sound like a Cavalry Troop). How many of those 1917 troops does each platoon really need?

...

Machines aren't soldiers. Machines can't eliminate soldiers. But they can reduce the need for soldiers.

...

I think the Euro experiments with the 6 person section (24 per platoon instead of 28) is worth consideration. Special Forces and Cavalry have been working with 4-man groups for quite a while now.

...

I think there is a lot of merit in the notion of retaining the 4 company battalion (6 if you include the Adm and Support companies) even if the manpower available requires reducing the section size to the brick of 4. The lack of carrying capacity can be managed by the machines. But the decision making central nervous system is maintained. And it is easy to expand the force by the simple expedient of adding 1 load carrier to assist each of the 4 members of the Brick.

In peace time those bricks of four can fit TAPVs, LAVs and Bradleys - Rhibs and Gryphons - Otters and C17s - or be supported by an Argo 8x8 and a Quadcopter.

...

And the small section, supported by batteries, needs a lot less butter.
 
Just saw this. Looks interesting, but nothing much new I'm guessing...

FORCE DEVELOPMENTCONFERENCE OF DEFENCE ASSOCIATIONS INSTITUTE

Report - October 2024

The Future of Land Warfare and the Canadian Army

The Canadian Army’s mobility capabilities have severely atrophied. The army’s military engineering equipment is generally based on 1970s concepts and technology, although some equipment is newer. Its armoured engineer vehicles cannot lay and recover fascines, and it does not have an assault bridging capability. Other than several sets of mine ploughs and rollers, and many dedicated soldiers, the army has insufficient mechanized and no explosive line charge systems to breach explosive obstacles such as minefields. One can also suggest that the army’s lack of tanks, mechanized infantry, self propelled artillery fires, ISR, EW, recovery, and other capabilities mean that it is unable to conduct opposed combined arms breaching operations at even the combat team level, let alone scale such manoeuvre to support breaching, break in or break out forces. The army’s counter-mobility is also negatively affected by obsolescence, lack of equipment, and policy. The army only has single impulse anti-tank mines, but not modern mines that can be controlled and initiated by other means, such as magnetic impulses. The army also does not have any mine layers, be they mechanical, scattering, or other, so must rely on very slow methods of laying mines by hand. The lack of these and other counter mobility capabilities will impede the protection of Canada’s land forces and reduce its abilities to shape adversaries to manoeuvre to where our forces can best deter, defend against, attrit, or defeat them. From these perspectives alone, let alone the regeneration of ready capabilities after equipment are acquired, Canadian Army elements may not be able to survive, coordinate, or scale to battle group level defensive, transitional, and offensive operations on current battlefields without assistance from allies. It needs to recapitalize its mobility and counter mobility capabilities before considering transformational modernization.

 
Communications problems on the battlefield are not a new problem. The solution has always been the same - more autonomy.

The Experimental Corps of Riflemen operated dispersed in pairs. Commands were issued by bugle and whistle because drums were cumbersome and couldn't be heard over long distances in a noisy battle. Riflemen were expected to show initiative. This contrasted with the lines of Redcoats marching in close order within the sound of the drums. They were expected to do exactly what they were told.

150 years after the Experimental Corps Field Marshal Montgomery said of another experimental corps, the Parachute Regiment, that every man had a Field Marshal's baton in his pack. Every para, like the rifleman, was expected to show initiative. Even if the battalion was reduced to one solitary private then that private was expected to "Charlie Mike" and complete the battalion's mission, fulfilling the commander's intent, to the best of his ability.

In the interval between the Paras and the Rifles sits WW1 and two circulars printed and distributed by the British Army's Stationary Service in 1917, in the aftermath of the Somme, once all the new gadgets had been introduced: SS135 “Instructions for the training of divisions for offensive action, 1917“ and SS143 “Instructions for the training of platoons for offensive action, 1917

I argue that SS143 was not evolutionary. It was revolutionary. Issued in February 1917 it marked a distinct dividing line between the army of Redcoat columns turned khaki and the modern army based upon Lieutenants, Mission Command and the paraphernalia of the industrial war machine. The Combined Arms platoon with bombs and bullets, capable of acting independently of Command for a period of hours, looking after its own defensive needs and, crucially operating independently of instruction. Autonomously to use a word in vogue.

...

SS135 says that a platoon, under the control of a small HQ can vary in size from 28 to 44 ORs. The ORs are split into 4 sections of 7 to 11 under the control of a single NCO reporting to the platoon's HQ. Internal communications were by voice and runner. External communications, from platoon to brigade were patchy enough as to be non-existent. Circumstances demanded that the Platoon Leader be left to get on with the job on his own terms, implementing the Commander's Intent to the best of his ability.

SS135 also says that if the platoon drops below 28 effectives then the platoon as a whole is ineffective. Why is that? What did those ORs contribute to the Ops Plan? Were they mules or spare Platoon Leaders? Were they valuable for what they could do, or what they carried?

...



Or a quarter of a liter of JP-8 or half a pound of butter. Invest that much energy and you get a couch potato playing video games. Put a 60 lb pack on her back and you need to add another half pound of butter to supply her with 4000 calories. Send her north into the snow and put her in the traces of a pulk and give her a pair of snow shoes and she needs 10000 calories a day. She now needs 2 and a half pounds of butter. Or muktuk. And gets tired. Demanding rest every day and withdrawal for extended rest after about 3 days.

Those basic mechanics have plagued humanity for ever.

The more you carried the more you needed to carry as food and the less "useful" stuff you could carry. And the more you carried the more rest you needed. MTOW, Payload and Range.

Dogs were a godsend. You could put them in the traces and ride the pulk and revert to couch potato status again.

Rumour has it that one word used by some native north Americans for "horse" is "big dog". Dogs, horses, internal combustion engines or electric motors all of them are interchangeable. All of them are filling in Redcoats carrying muskets and bullets. All of them are filling in for ORs in the 1917 Platoon. They can carry bombs, bullets, rifle grenades, rations and water and extend the range of the autonomous platoon.

Curiously they can also decrease the autonomy of the platoon because the platoon can now afford to carry around a ruddy great radio that will communicate with the Platoon Leader's boss half a planet away and allow the Leader of the Free World to observe her operation on the big screen while sitting on a couch with a coffee in hand. Zero excess calories expended by the LOTFW.

....

In 1815 it took a battalion of Redcoats to have a noticeable effect.
In 1915 it took a platoon acting autonomously to have a noticeable effect.
In 1945 one well placed individual dropped into a useful area and acting autonomously could have a noticeable effect.
In 2025 we have machines that can act autonomously and have a noticeable effect.

The same machines can also replace the dogs in the traces of the pulks.

...

The real advantage of the machine to the soldier in the field is that it increases the useful load available to the soldier. It increases the range of the soldier. And it can be adapted to the demands of the environment.

....

Back to the autonomous platoon of 1917.

Is the assertion that you need a minimum of 28 people to achieve a given objective still valid? What if we assumed that the ORs under the command of the NCO were only there to permit the NCO to achieve his mission and that his mission was set by the Platoon Leader?

Suppose the Platoon were reduced to a Platoon Leader, his 2ic and 4 NCOs and some intelligent dogs, or autonomous machines, or even just some bright MRZRs (The Platoon is starting to sound like a Cavalry Troop). How many of those 1917 troops does each platoon really need?

...

Machines aren't soldiers. Machines can't eliminate soldiers. But they can reduce the need for soldiers.

...

I think the Euro experiments with the 6 person section (24 per platoon instead of 28) is worth consideration. Special Forces and Cavalry have been working with 4-man groups for quite a while now.

...

I think there is a lot of merit in the notion of retaining the 4 company battalion (6 if you include the Adm and Support companies) even if the manpower available requires reducing the section size to the brick of 4. The lack of carrying capacity can be managed by the machines. But the decision making central nervous system is maintained. And it is easy to expand the force by the simple expedient of adding 1 load carrier to assist each of the 4 members of the Brick.

In peace time those bricks of four can fit TAPVs, LAVs and Bradleys - Rhibs and Gryphons - Otters and C17s - or be supported by an Argo 8x8 and a Quadcopter.

...

And the small section, supported by batteries, needs a lot less butter.
That's a lot of words to ask if you can reduce the size of platoons. The answer is probably no because you don't have enough massing. I'd much rather a section of 8 over 4 in a defensive, regardless of whatever the flavour of the day wunderwaffe is.
 
That's a lot of words to ask if you can reduce the size of platoons. The answer is probably no because you don't have enough massing. I'd much rather a section of 8 over 4 in a defensive, regardless of whatever the flavour of the day wunderwaffe is.

If I need 8 soldiers then send two bricks.

Regardless of the waffen.
 
It’s US Army terminology - used to emotionally and intellectually shake off the GWOT (Global War on Terror). An acronym that can also be used as a verb “Let’s LSCO the heck out of this!”
 
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