Immigrant groups fear dual-citizenship review

[niner domestic]

I've added this development in the ever increasing debates on Canadian citizenship to this thread.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/lost_citizens

I'm torn on this one especially with the particular references to the CF membership and DFAIT staffers.  While my personal history has had to deal with the issues of dual citizenship with my kid being born in the UK and making sure she had the right paperwork completed, and having to deal with my issue of my convoluted citizenship, I can see both sides of this issue. The UK has had some major changes to it's citizenship laws in which both the kid and I got caught in and it's taken some time to sort it all out. 

However, I'm having some difficulty with the connection that the article has made to the fathering of children out of wedlock by CF personnel and diplomats.  While only the most naivest of persons would not believe there are children born to CF personnel and diplomats (especially during WWII), I'm offended that these two services have been singled out as opposed to merely giving reference to any Cdn who is travelling abroad who fathers a child. 

I'm torn with this issue with the direct implication that children whose parents were not married at their birth or have since birth not married, should be assumed to have citizenship of the father.  Perhaps I am a little jaded with the overarching assumption that patriarchy is alive and well in the world of citizenship as I discovered with my own kid's birth that being a Cdn mother, did not give her the right to citizenship in Canada and we had to apply for it as if this 3 month old kid was a full fledged immigrant (it was actually quite humourous that I had to sponsor my own 3 month old child).  Or perhaps it's just a point that a child born out of wedlock are using a point of connection to gain access to a quick immigration solution.  If your read the Citizenship Act, once the child's parents were married they had no fear of not remaining a citizen - this applies to the UK as well. 

What I think I'm seeing in these cases, are instances of persons who had been fathered by a Cdn, their parents never married and the appropriate paperwork was never completed.  Now with the requirement of having to have a passport to head to the US, these persons are finding they did not have the appropriate paperwork completed.  While i can appreciate that the citizenship requirements do not include children born out of wedlock as having an automatic claim to citizenship, I am questioning why those who have been in residence in Canada since their birth or shortly after, why they do/did not simply apply for their citizenship? In my own experience the paperwork wasn't all that difficult to complete, it just took some extra visits to the High Commission and then a trip to what was then, Immigration and Citizenship to get the kid's final papers filled out and pay the 5 bucks.  I'm curious as to why these persons have never taken the steps to ensure their citizenship other than simply not being aware.  If it is simply a matter of having to apply from outside of Canada as everyone else applying has to, then so be it, or simply applying now and paying the fees, taking the test and being sworn in.  I mean come on, for the last 25 years, my kid has had to carry her citizenship ID, it didn't take being a rocket scientist to figure out that she was born outside Canada, and needed proof of citizenship to get back in.  Is this article suggesting that these 100,000 estimated persons have never once travelled out of Canada?

 

 

[Sassy]

This isn't a dual citizenship issue, then.  It's an access to services based on residency issue, and that's alright.  Health care already works like this: if you are an expatriate and return to Canada, even if you are a citizen you face a 90 day waiting period before you're eligible to access public health insurance benefits.  That system is designed so that people can't just run for the border to get health care they haven't been paying into.  Makes sense to me to restrict access in that way - although a broad stroke isn't necessarily a good idea.  I would suggest a mechanism that gives a more diligent review to applications for social program access by returning Canadians to see if the need for them is legitimate or a result of poor planning or attempted exploitation - ie did they plan for their return properly or have they hit a spell of hard luck.  I don't know how such a system could be effectively managed though, that's the trick.

I agree, I have no issue with dual citizenship but I do have a problem when Canada as a country goes into a war torn country to evacuate people who haven't live in Canada for years.  Canada should inform dual citizens that you will  not be protected by Canada in the event of conflict or war.  If someone chooses to reside outside of Canada than you except the consequences of your decision not the Canadian Tax Payer.  In the for seeable future I can only think of Lebanon as another example where Canada has to rescue supposed Canadians from a war zone.  Most are already living back in Lebanon, inform them we won't evacuate you again and all social safty nets will be negated upon your leaving Canada and they will  be restored if you return to Canada as a tax payer for a period of five years. 

 

[CrazyCanuk4536056919]

Only just saw this thread, and found it very interesting.

I am a UK Citizen and a Candian Citizen..in that order. Why? Born in the UK, then moved to Canada at 5 years old. No disrespect to anyone, or anypalce on here. I hold both my home, in the UK, and my Home in Canada as equal. I love them both, and I am proud of both, and proud to have lived and be apart of both. If the government wants to remove dual citizenship, thats fine. I will still retain my Canadian Citizenship, obviously, my daughter and wife live here, and I work here. But I cannot denouce my British Citizenship. I still will alwyas hold a UK Birth Certificate, and therfore, will always be a British Citizen. That they cannot take that away from me.

If they did go ahead with this, what would happen, to me, for instance? Born in the UK, citizenship by birth, yet hold Canadian Citizenship?

 

[1feral1]

Just a little bit of rambling on.......

Shyte, I feel like I am repeating myself, but here it goes....

In my instance, I left Canada for greener pastures in Jan 1995. I thought I'd return one day. I love Canada, and my home province of Saskatchewan. I am in touch with family and friends often, and still read the local Leader Post and Star Phoenix often on the Net.

I had recieved my Australian citizenship in May of 1997, and my last Cdn passport expired 6 yrs back. I solely travel on an Australian passport since then. It probably was not til after my Mom died in 2000 that I realised that I would not be coming back to reside. I do however have a plot in the local boneyard at the vill of Quill Lake, 19km straight east of Watson, so I know that one day I will be coming home for good ;D.

For me, the gamble coming to Australia paid off, but after a dismal 5 yr marriage which started in Canada (1991-96 split in 1995, 9 months into Australia), I had to start over again, literally from scratch with nothing, and it was not easy being totally alone in a new country, but I made it work. I earned everything, and I am content where I am in my life. I feel I have excelled more in Australia then I ever could in Canada.

As for dual nationality, I am certainally NOT a Canadian by convenience, and I really do not intend to return to live, but anything is possible I guess, but I have a love for two countries, and although I feel close to Canada, by heart is in Australia. If it came down to choosing, I would keep my adopted country. Don't get me wrong or be offended, thats just how it is. I hope that day never comes. In Australia, I have earned the right to vote and have the same privilages as one born there, and I am bloody proud of my citizenship certificate, as of the many others I have, its the only one framed. I served Canada for over 18 yrs, and served Australia for 12 yrs, in peace and in war, recieving the Australian equivilant of the US CIB, so I feel I have earned my right in passage.

I have not paid tax in Canada since 1994, I don't know the Hockey or CFL anymore. Most of my family are dead. Many friends have moved on. I have no clue on politics both local, regional and federal, and when I was home last in 2004, I found myself daily on the INet reading Aussie newspapers. People move on, I've lost touch with many. The city of Regina evolves, and now I feel like a vistior when I am home. I guess I have become Australianised, ha!

I do miss those prairies, but there is something about the cane fields around McKay on a hot humid January night, or the dusty endless outback near Winton, popping into The Gregory Hotel for a beer and dinkum pub lunch when its 45C. The Top End of the Northern Territory, Darwin and region is so isolated, yet inviting. One can't forget the crocs of the Adelaide River. Australia for me is a magical place, but it is not Misinippi north of LaRonge, or Banff at the Rockies, and those parts of Canada I often think of, and remember the days (and the mosquitos) of life there that I took for granted, now only relived in memory, or the odd holiday. I hope to be back again later this year.

What do I miss? Aside from family, friends, certain favourite foods etc, its things like a distant ski-doo on a crisp winter still night, or the honking of Canada geese migrating every fall. A call of a loon on a northern lake, a Saskatchewan summer sunset, or the crunching of snow as yo walk on it. The stale smell of beer in the Quill Lake Hotel, with a sizzling steak cooking in the steak pit, while CCR plays on the juke box in the background. Grid roads and the simple farm life, the hunting, just memories now. When I think of home, thats what comes to mind.

Whatever Canada has to do to clean house will happen one day, but its a shame a bunch of thankless 'Canadians by convenience' have to spoil it for the rest of us who choose, yes choose to live overseas for whatever reasons. Why anyone would choose to live here in the Middle East over Canada is beyond me. Its the dark ages here, rife with centuries of violence, tribal hatred, and government corruption at all levels, and it always will be. Its just part of the culture. I've been in four Me countries. The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and of course here in Iraq, and I'll see another one before our we RTA. There are no true rights or freedoms as we know it in the ME. I hate it, and more so now for sure.

Ramblings off,

Cheers from Baghdad,

Wes

 

[Boxkicker]

I agree, I have no issue with dual citizenship but I do have a problem when Canada as a country goes into a war torn country to evacuate people who haven't live in Canada for years.  Canada should inform dual citizens that you will  not be protected by Canada in the event of conflict or war.  If someone chooses to reside outside of Canada than you except the consequences of your decision not the Canadian Tax Payer.  In the for seeable future I can only think of Lebanon as another example where Canada has to rescue supposed Canadians from a war zone.  Most are already living back in Lebanon, inform them we won't evacuate you again and all social safty nets will be negated upon your leaving Canada and they will  be restored if you return to Canada as a tax payer for a period of five years. 

  This is something I agree with whole heartedly, I am a dual citizen. I hold US and Canadian I have kept my US citizenship and complied with all US laws IE: Selective Service ACT, so I may continue to see my family there, with minimal hassles. I live here and serve here, I would not expect the government to save my but, if I went to a country that has been a war zone for the last 1,000 years.

 

[CrazyCanuk4536056919]

Whatever Canada has to do to clean house will happen one day, but its a shame a bunch of thankless 'Canadians by convenience' have to spoil it for the rest of us who choose, yes choose to live overseas for whatever reasons.

+10

 

[GAP]

Another case of "Canada, I need help" !!

Egypt's `spy' case and Ottawa's duty
TheStar.com March 02, 2007
Article Link

When Canadian dual citizens get into serious trouble abroad, often in their countries of origin, Ottawa invariably faces public pressure to "do something" to bail them out.

That is happening in the case of Mohamed el-Attar, an Egyptian Canadian on trial in Egypt for espionage. They allege he is a confessed Israeli spy who worked out of a Toronto bank, gathering data with three other Israeli spies on Arabs and Muslims here and trying to recruit them. They built a detailed case and arrested him Jan. 1 in Cairo while on a family visit.

During a chaotic courtroom hearing this week, Attar appealed directly to the Canadian government to help him out. He shouted that he had been tortured into giving a false confession, and that he is innocent. The Israelis say they don't know him. His current Egyptian lawyer is begging for more time to prepare a defence. A previous lawyer withdrew, saying he could not defend a traitor. If convicted, he faces 25 years at hard labour.

While Canadian officials are rightly treating Egypt's claims with skepticism, the sad truth is they can offer only limited help, given Attar's dual citizenship. The Egyptians view him as one of their own.

Canada's security services, meanwhile, have been left scrambling to determine whether the Israelis and Egyptians indeed have been spying here, whether Canadian banking data has been compromised, and whether Attar is the innocent he claims to be. It is a mess.

And Attar is not unique. Huseyin Celil, a Chinese Canadian, is being held in China on suspicion of terrorism. He, too, says he was tortured. A Chinese Canadian businessman, Jimmy Chen Jian Yuan, is being held following a business dispute. Iranian Canadian photojournalist Zara Kazemi was murdered in an Iranian prison four years ago after being detained at a student protest. Another Iranian Canadian, scholar Ramin Jahanbegloo, was held last year on suspicion of espionage before being released
More on link

 

[TCBF]

We need a new policy: How about in the case of Dual Citizens, your 'New" Canadian Citizenship takes second place to your old country citizenship when you are back in old country?

Why not?

In other words, if you go back to Zamboniland and get in trouble, the Zambonis are responsible for looking after you.  After all, you went back on your own, right?

All 'Duals' should have to sign a statement saying that, when out of Canada, the country that they are closest to will look after their intersts.  If you are in Mexico, Canada takes care of you.  If you are in the Smegman Peoples Republic, Zamboniland looks after you.

Problem solved.

 

[orange.paint]

I find that most people who complain about the dual-citizenship are the same folk who say "My great-great granddad was the first person in Pembroke Ontario" or"My family has been here since 1822."

Lets face it unless your a Canadian Native (Innu,micmac etc) your family were immigrants.Why did they come here?For a better life for themselves and sometimes their families.To escape the law.To make money to one day return home to start a better life.Some went back "home" some remained and reproduced you a "Canadian."

So what is the difference of a Lebanese person coming here to gain enough money to improve his family life back "home"?Come here work in a restaurant and save enough money to improve his social standing in his home country.To maybe buy a business back home and return.I personally don't see the problem with that.

For some strange reason if it was a man from Devon,white I think things would be different.What about the English guys who come here for work and then return home to retire?What about England got attacked?Would we feel the same way about bringing these people back "home"?As they are dual citizens?I am willing to say no.As they speak English and are for the most part white.

We were discussing immigrants at work.Some people were getting quite colourful in the discussion until I said my wife's family were all landed Immigrants from Wales.
First response:Well that's different.

I think sometimes people just have to put themselves in other peoples shoes.Would you want your family who is living in England rescued?(Of course there will be some hardliners on this site who say "No there not Canadian anymore IMHO!"If you think that lightly of your family,your outlook on humanity is proably lacking as well.

I have family and friends working all around the world.I would want Canada to step up and help.

BTW I'm English,white and my family had been in Newfoundland since late 1800's,and Canadian since 1949.

Just a point,as for them coming here to work and going back home....look at Newfies.
What do they do?Go to the "mainland" work to make money and move back to their home.They are benefiting off places like Alberta what is the difference?

 

[TCBF]

I agree with you to a point.

When my people got off the boat, we may not have been considered a part of high society.  The vast majority of immigrants today fall into the same category.  They also work hard and do well.

I do have a problem with those who view Canadian citizenship as a passport of convienience, just so they can return to their native land and commit crimes, knowing that Canada will ensure they don't get executed.

Issues of loyalty are not allways so black and white.  It is impossible during a 'war on terror' to intern 'Enemy Aliens' for example.  Even though some may desparately need interning.

I also think we should draw the line at people who are in there old country when an emergency occurs, then expect us to drop everything and fund their extraction.  Why?  They have citizenship there, they can ride it out.  Did Zamboniland offer to extract all of the Zambonis from Quebec during the ice storm? Why not.

Methinks we are too soft.  There should be limits to dual allegiance, and if Canada becomes one's second favourite side during a conflict, one should either leave or submit to internment.

But: That does not mean we cannot be forgiving.  When the war is over - it's over.  Look at all of the Germans who came to Canada after WW2, many had fought the allies in the war.  They then came to Canada and helped with the further development  of this country. 

 

 

[riggermade]

Only just saw this thread, and found it very interesting.

I am a UK Citizen and a Candian Citizen..in that order. Why? Born in the UK, then moved to Canada at 5 years old. No disrespect to anyone, or anypalce on here. I hold both my home, in the UK, and my Home in Canada as equal. I love them both, and I am proud of both, and proud to have lived and be apart of both. If the government wants to remove dual citizenship, thats fine. I will still retain my Canadian Citizenship, obviously, my daughter and wife live here, and I work here. But I cannot denouce my British Citizenship. I still will alwyas hold a UK Birth Certificate, and therfore, will always be a British Citizen. That they cannot take that away from me.

If they did go ahead with this, what would happen, to me, for instance? Born in the UK, citizenship by birth, yet hold Canadian Citizenship?

Very well put Canuck, a person can have the love for both countries and I don't see why they would have to give up citizenship.

In my case it is my wife who holds dual,  Irish and Canadian and she is equally proud of both.  She grew up in Ireland and followed me here from Baghdad and has been in Canada 18 years now

I really don't see where limiting dual citizenship is going to make a difference, if some of these nuts go back to their country of origin and do something what is holding only a Canadian passport going to do?

 

[Avor]

Just a through, allow duel citizenship from countries Canada is allies with or on very good terms. ie- Commonwealth and NATO

We know the people of UK are our friends, and always will be. But the guy comming from Iran, we're on shaky terms with Iran at best. So if an Iranian wants to be Canadian, make him pick on nationality, to prove loyaly to this country.

I know somebody is going to jump up and sceam racist, but it's not about that, it's about our traditional and current allies. Think of it like this, you have something realy good, you share it with your friends and family first, not strangers.

 

[Sassy]

We need a new policy: How about in the case of Dual Citizens, your 'New" Canadian Citizenship takes second place to your old country citizenship when you are back in old country?

Why not?

In other words, if you go back to Zamboniland and get in trouble, the Zambonis are responsible for looking after you.  After all, you went back on your own, right?

All 'Duals' should have to sign a statement saying that, when out of Canada, the country that they are closest to will look after their intersts.  If you are in Mexico, Canada takes care of you.  If you are in the Smegman Peoples Republic, Zamboniland looks after you.

Problem solved.

I like the idea principle, excluding prisoners of politics i.e. journalist and reporters.

Avor I like your ideas as well, but let us be honest the left/left in Canada would go ballistic if a system such as you described were implimented.  I can hear the screams of outrage in my head.

 

[1feral1]

I  I can hear the screams of outrage in my head.

Too right!

Bloody hell, I can hear those 'lefty snivel libertarian' screams from Canuckistan all the way up the Tigris here in Baghdaddy!

Seriously, something will only happen if we (Canadians) get our nose seriously bloodied on our own soil, and then it will be too little too late, but wait, then they'll cry, moan and drip and say 'why did you not do something  : .

The left are dangerous.



Cheers,

Wes

 

[Avor]

Don't get to caught up on the "Left" and "Right" of politics, I honestly gave up a long time ago. People are all over the place with their values, it just doenst matter.

The kind of people who would dislike what I just recomended would be those overly policitaly correct bastards, and those people who call everybody but themselves a racist.

I just say and do things that offend people across the whole specrum  ;D