Government Falls! The 2006 election thread

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Although i'm optimistic, its usually when things are going great that a conservative MP steps on his **** and makes some lewd/crude comment that puts shame on the whole party.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Well, the media will certainly be much more scrutinous of the Conservatives now.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

After watching the news last night with the Conservatives "edging" ahead, I wouldn't doubt if Mr. Harper didn't call all conservative MP's and threaten them with their lives to keep from making "stupid" statements to the media. The liberals are accusing a conservative MP in Calgary of too much "inaction" because they are trying to goad him into stepping on his d*** with the media.

Go Conservatives......

 

[Slim]

After watching the news last night with the Conservatives "edging" ahead, I wouldn't doubt if Mr. Harper didn't call all conservative MP's and threaten them with their lives to keep from making "stupid" statements to the media. The liberals are accusing a conservative MP in Calgary of too much "inaction" because they are trying to goad him into stepping on his d*** with the media.

Go Conservatives......

That is most certainly the act of a very desperate party! I hope that the conservatives and the public in general are smart enough to see that.

 

[McG]

This looks good:Stephen Harper announces plan to Stand up for Security

 

[privatesteve]

So the liberals have promised to pay for half of students tuition. It seems they are systematically promising every group of people exactly what they want in a desperate attempted to buy votes. I don't see why they need to pay for half of the tuition, its not very expensive to being with. If you work hard enough over summer holidays on the rigs or something..you can make more than enough to cover living expenses and school for the year. Basically they are taking our tax money and giving it to some art-poofter so he can waste it on dumb courses.

I was also wondering if this would have any affect on recruiting for the Canadian Forces. I know free education is kinda why a lot of people join. What are your opinions on this?

ncreasing Access to Post-Secondary Education

The new 50/50 Plan will be open to any student pursuing a first undergraduate degree or diploma from an accredited university, community college or other post-secondary program in Canada. Qualifying students will be those who commence their undergraduate educations beginning in 2007-08. Parents and students will have the choice to either opt in to the new plan, or draw benefits from the existing Tuition Tax Credit and Education Expense Deduction.

“Everyone who is able should have the opportunity to pursue undergraduate studies,” said the Prime Minister. “That’s why we’re going to directly support the families and students who must pay for their post-secondary education.”

Students opting in to the 50/50 Plan will receive direct payments – up to a maximum of $3,000 – for half of their tuition fees, when they most need the support: as they embark on their first year of studies, and as they prepare to graduate.

The new Plan will be delivered through the current Canada Student Loan Program (CSLP). Currently, the governments of Quebec, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut do not participate in the CSLP, so our government would work with them to arrange alternative payments.

By providing a first payment at the beginning of a student’s post-secondary education, the 50/50 plan provides families and students with the incentive to begin undergraduate studies. The second payment provides an additional incentive for students to complete their programs.

The 50/50 Plan, for which only students attending Canadian universities or colleges can qualify, also provides Canadians with an incentive to support Canadian schools.

As such, the 50/50 Plan builds on other efforts designed to support Canadian post secondary institutions, namely:

    * the 5-year, $1.2 billion for the Indirect Costs of Research Program;

    * the $1 billion PSE Innovation Fund; and

    * the Canada Foundation for Innovation.

The plan, which will cost an estimated $600 million per year when fully phased-in, strengthens the overall commitment of a Liberal government to improving Canadians’ access to skills training.

The 50/50 Plan expands earlier Liberal government efforts to enhance access to post secondary education, such as:

    * the Canada Access Grants for Students from Low-Income Families; and

    * the Canada Access Grants for Students with Permanent Disabilities.

The Canada Access Grants for students from low-income families are currently only available for the first year of post-secondary studies. To ensure access to post-secondary education for low-income Canadians, a Liberal government will expand the Canada Access Grants to cover up to four years of undergraduate study for eligible students, beginning 2006-07. This measure will cost $110 million per year, and will benefit an additional 55,000 students each year.

A Liberal government will also review Canada's system of student financial assistance, together with the provinces, territories and other partners, with the aim of providing lower interest rate costs for students.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Privatesteve, please post links to your sources when you quote an article. Sources often establish the credibility of the posted material.

Thank you

Mike
Staff

 

[Grunthor]

i completely agree with you privatesteve, all that means is that the rest of us are going to be paying for half of each students, why should we have to pay for someone else wanting to "further" their education.

 

[Glorified Ape]

So the liberals have promised to pay for half of students tuition. It seems they are systematically promising every group of people exactly what they want in a desperate attempted to buy votes. I don't see why they need to pay for half of the tuition, its not very expensive to being with. If you work hard enough over summer holidays on the rigs or something..you can make more than enough to cover living expenses and school for the year. Basically they are taking our tax money and giving it to some art-poofter so he can waste it on dumb courses.

Sure, working on an oil rig you might make enough money to cover tuition and some of your living expenses for the year. I don't think there are enough jobs that pay like an oil rig to employ the entirety of the Canadian student body. If, like many students, you're confined to unskilled labour like retail work, you can expect maybe 9 or 10 dollars an hour. If you worked 40 hours/week for the months of June, July, and August, you'd earn 4300-4800 dollars over the summer. That MIGHT cover your base tuition costs, not including books, instruments, etc. Assume a lowball figure for your rent (400/month) and that utilities are included, you'll pay 4800 in rent for the year. Books/instruments for each semester, estimate $600/year. Food, estimate about $200/month, so 2400/year (that's a lowball). Spending money, estimate about $200/month, so 2400/year (and that's lowball too). Telephone, say 40$/month so 480/year. Internet 30$/month = 360/year. Other expenses (haircuts, school supplies [pens, paper, etc], toiletries, photocopy costs, etc.) say 40$/month = 480/year.

With all the lowballs added up, including tuition (say 5000/year), you're looking at 16 520. I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time earning that much money in a summer, as would 99% of students. If I did, I'd have a job that would pay 66 000/year. I won't see that kind of money until I'm a Captain, at least.

As for "dumb courses" (  : ) what, in your esteemed wisdom and experience, would you suggets people take at school? Which courses aren't dumb? In fact, are there one or two fields of study you can suggest which aren't dumb, and thus worthy of a person's attention? I'm curious to know which courses you think are dumb, perhaps you could provide examples of such dumb courses, their course codes, and the schools at which they're provided along with an explanation of why they're dumb.

I was also wondering if this would have any affect on recruiting for the Canadian Forces. I know free education is kinda why a lot of people join. What are your opinions on this?

That's a good question. I'd be interested to see how many of the people who join through ROTP wouldn't join if they could get the education cheaper. I would imagine there would be some effect on ROTP recruitment if the government covered more tuition costs, but I'd be interested to know just how much. I guess we'll have to wait and see - although this sounds like just another promise to garner votes, I doubt they'll actually do it.

 

[chrisf]

With all the lowballs added up, including tuition (say 5000/year), you're looking at 16 520.

Given we're on an army forum, I'd love to point out there's plenty of reserve units hiring... I made a good bit more then that as a class A reservist last year...

That being said, while I'd be in support of lowering education costs, I don't see any economic reasons for it... I'm sure statistics will show that an educated population is more productive, but at the same time, we've already a surplus of university educated workers (Not in all fields, but over all) and a deficiet of trades skilled people... I forsee this producing yet more over-educated individuals who never actually use their degree (No offence to my friends with a BA )

I see this as buying votes, plain and simple... that being said, if it were more in the direction of an interest free student loan, rather then a grant, I'd be more in support of it, simply because it places more onus back on the individual student to succeed.

 

[fourninerzero]

I agree with glorified ape, its very hard for a full time student to earn enough in a summer and  working part time during the school year to pay for everything. Student loans are an option, but can take a long time to pay off, especially with a lack of jobs in many fields of study.

On the other hand, education is never a bad thing, no matter what the area of study is. Most university programs require a few courses from other disciplines, as to get a rounded education. (Sciences have to take some arts classes etc etc). My belief is that the more educated our country is, the better off our country will be. I like the idea of the government paying for half of the tuition, as it will hopefully attract people to getting more education as well as making life easier for current and future students.

As for vote buying, this seems to be a text book example. My hope is that no matter who is elected, areas like our military, health care and education are the winners.

 

[a_majoor]

Since up to 70% of the cost of University education is already subsidized, it is hard to imagine how much more money that should be poured into this.

The price of university tuition is rising far faster than the cost of living because there are no market incentives to keep it down, and in order to keep the unwashed masses out; after all what good is a university degree if everyone can get one out of the Liberal CrackerJack box?

Perhaps prospective students need to think very carefully what they are actually getting when they go to University..........

 

[sheikyerbouti]

First off,

This program is not exclusive to degree status institutions. This plan is aimed at all potential students, meaning tradespeople and Uni students alike.

Secondly, any efforts to reduce the rising debtloads of the student body is an effective way to mitigate the loss of purchasing power that is spread out over the long term for the average graduate. As debt load increases there is a direct effect on all facets of our economy. Essentially, if people are servicing debt, they are not buying new cars or taking out a mortgage on their first home.

With the erosion of Provincial support for education (ie: BC has no more grants for students), this provides an opportunity for the Feds (all parties), to make inroads with a very large demographic that currently is not renowned for exercising their voting power. A corellary effect is that the Feds can allocate a portion of the surplus budget towards a long term strategy that will effectively boost the tax base for future generations.

As Canada moves more towards a Service based economy, there must be a realisation that higher skilled, better trained workers are more productive and hence render our economy more resilient to global competition.

WRT to majoor's comments, it is evident that you do not think highly of the next generation of Canadians. I am curious as to what aversions you may have to producing another strong generation of tax payers which will carry us towards a tax base that will support the likes of yourselves (boomers and the like) into your old age? I know, maybe we should farm out your care to 3rd world nations as seems to be the case nowadays. Once you hit 65 or go senile, let's ship you off to Zimbabwe or Romania. It will be cheaper, meaning you won't have to pay the real costs that you have incurred.

The sense of entitlement of the boomer generation is what is driving many of the economic decisions made nowadays. Unless we destroy all that has been built up terms of social programs INCLUDING THE MILITARY, radical decisions must be made with respect  to building a fiscal framework that derives the most benefit for the citizens of this great country.

 

[George Wallace]

;D

Nice Campaign promise.....like all Liberal promises of the past.

If they do get elected and by some miracle do keep this promise, does anyone think that it may be back-dated?  I wouldn't mind getting half my Tuition Monies back.  That dates back to the 1970's.  What are my chances, after all I have supported this Nation for all these years working hard to pay my Taxes to keep people on Welfare,.... and Liberal Sponsorship scandals,..... and Ad Scam, and.........?

 

[Lance Wiebe]

I must be thick.  I simply cannot figure out why the taxpayer should pay any tuition, for any students.  Tax free loans, sure.  How does the taxpayer benefit from a new batch of BA's, or Poli-Sci students graduating? 

Actually, upon reflection, helping some disadvantaged may be of some assistance down the road, but only if they learn trades, maybe.  In my opinion, we don't need more "professional students", with little incentive to earn their own way.....

 

[Michael OLeary]

I would add a few extra conditions:

Once a degree is registered for and the student receives any funding, they only receive funding for as many years as that declared program is supposed to take.

No second or further degree will receive funding while any loan remains outstanding.

 

[a_majoor]

Sheikyerbouoti, you are suggesting a hypothetical result, with very little basis of evidence.

Given the quality of university students which I see when wearing my training NCO hat, it would seem either these students are idiots (probablynot true in most cases), or the quality of instruction has been greatly diluted, so to suggest people with poor communication skills, incomplete grasp of mathematics and an inability to think in complete and coherent thoughts will be a benefit to the economy and future generations of Canadians is a bit of a stretch.

Blatent vote buying is not a strategy for educating the population or improving the economy (and speaking of debt load, since taxes are the highest single expenditure of the Canadian family, this is the area that needs to be looked at).

I can suggest a proven strategy to energize the Canadian economy; cut government spending and taxes.

The American economy benefited greatly in the 1920's, 1960's, 1980's and post 2001 (check the numbers on quarterly economic growth and employment).
Ireland went from a virtually third world status to having a standard of living comparable to Canada's after steep tax cuts
Singapore, Korea and Tiawan became the "Little Tigers" after tax cuts
Mike Harris was able to increase health care spending by $11 Billion Cdn in Ontario because revenues increased due to the economic boom after his tax cuts (this offset the funding cuts from the Chretien Liberals; overseen by a certain finance minister who is currently running for office)
The Thacher era UK came out a virtual depression after the tax cuts of the 1980s.

These benefits are manifest very shortly after the tax cuts take effect, so you and I can enjoy them now, not waiting for future generations of ill  educated Canadians to attempt to deliver them.

 

[Daidalous]

Wow  was thinking there for half a second "Maybe I should stop putting money away for my kids education"  Yeah right,  it looks good on paper.  I do not know why people want the government to pay for everything for them.  My best friend  during high school leaches every dollar he can out of the government through student loans. He only spends half of the money on school and the rest he spends on computer parts and games,  his big goal is to graduate then declare bankruptcy,  just makes me sick.  On the other hand I know one guy that flipping burgers 4 nights a week to pay for school.  That man has ever ounce of respect I can give.

 

[3rd Herd]

I must be thick.  I simply cannot figure out why the taxpayer should pay any tuition, for any students.  Tax free loans, sure.  How does the taxpayer benefit from a new batch of BA's, or Poli-Sci students graduating? 

Don't know about the poli sci types BUT the tax payers are sure getting there money from all us BA types who went into teaching over crowded classrooms with kids who don't want to be there in the first place with little or no resources and unreal expectations from higher authorities who have no clue what is occurring on the ground. Gee it almost sounds like a military job again.

As for student loans and grants when I went back not by choice but necessity hmm work and do 4 crse per semester or 5 to 6 crse a semester year round and grad quicker.Then pay taxes sooner so our military can buy badley needed equipment Hmm just a major or double my options and go for a double major. For you math challenged types that means four study areas. Oh yeah in my spare time I was President of the Disabled Students Society for two years rewriting areas of university legislation which not only my university passed but three others adopted as well. Benefiting not only us BA types but B.Sc and B.Eng too.

As for a_majoor comment "Perhaps prospective students need to think very carefully what they are actually getting when they go to University.........." Several university recognized this and have change policy and will not allow a student to declare a major until 2/3 of the way through second year. I believe University of Winnipeg was first to adopt this policy and others have quickly followed suit. Seems academia can recognize the need for policy change allot more rapidly than the CF can.

As for free secondary education and the costs to the tax payers. Well several European countries tax payers are screaming right now as their highly educated graduates recipients of free education are flocking here to Canada, Germany is a prime example of this. Next gentlemen before you rant and holler about life time students on loans check your informayion. ALL student loans are matched to programs already, the only exception to this is an extention for medical resons for yourself or immediate family.

oh by the way I going to complete an MA just so I can teach BA to keep the conspiracy theory going that a BA does not contribute to society.

 

[COBRA-6]

The sense of entitlement of the boomer generation is what is driving many of the economic decisions made nowadays.

This is what drives me nuts, the sense of entitlement some have towards a post-secondary degree. No you are not entitled, you must earn it. Both academical and fiscally. College or University is not simply "what happens the year after grade 12", and the less effort that goes into obtaining something, the less value it has. 

There is nothing wrong with working for a while after high school before pursuing a post-secondary education. In fact these people were by far the most motivated group of student on campus from what I saw. They had enough life experience to know what they wanted to do in life, and they treated school seriously.