FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[GDawg]

If i may summarize the past few pages of idsucssions:

We've made procurement mistakes buying unproven equipment from foreign companies.  To even things out, we should hire a Canadian company without even a production line open to provide us with aircraft that don't meet our needs.

Yep. Once Viking has completed production of the FWSAR project we can pull the jigs out of the secret barn and build CF 105s to replace the CF 18.

If we seriously intended to build everything at home it would require a harmonized plan thoughtful enough to last through multiple Lib/Tory cycles and we simply do not have the time to fiddle around when we are suffering from systemic rust out of multiple platforms in every branch of the CF.

I'd like to add TCCCS to the list of home grown successes while we're getting nostalgic for Canadiana

We can either get our act together now to produce the next generation of Canadian products or we can drop the Canadian narcissism and stop insisting on buying junk with a big heartwarming maple leaf painted on it.

 

[Haletown]

and MAATS . . .  now there's a home grown money sink.

Based on the proven Canadian CAATS technology. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Don2Wing:

There is nothing wrong with buying Canadian - but as everybody has been pointing out there is no Canadian to buy.  Now Canadian industry could go out on a limb and actually develop something that could slot into the delivery schedule 15 to 20 years out....but apparently Canadian investors are risk averse ..... AND.....until recently .... DND had no useful mechanism for long term financing.  They were financed project by project, year by year.  Now, with the current funding formula they supposedly can take a longer view of their needs and how they might meet them.  And, perhaps, once they get past the Afghanistan scramble, they might see themselves clear to issuing Statements of Requirement that industry can respond to in a useful manner.

That, however, will require a massive shift in mindset for an industrial base that has no history in that type of development.  Canada, since the era of the AutoPact, has been comfortable living off the scraps falling from the Yankee table.

In marketing we call it "me tooism".  I won't take the risk of developing ketchup.  Hey, look at that Heinz is making a killing on ketchup.  Hey, how come your buying that Yankee ketchup.  I could make ketchup too, if you paid me to build a line, learn how to make it and find the suppliers.....and I bet it would be just about as good, eventually.  Me too, eh?

 

[YZT580]

Umm... that's why we have SAR resources in the following locations....

103 Rescue Squadron, Gander, Newfoundland
413 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
424 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Trenton, Ontario
435 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Winnipeg, Manitoba
442 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Comox, British Columbia
And all of them are south of 60.  I am aware of the S&R capabilities from having had to initiate calls and flight follow you chaps for many, many years and I am aware of the response times.  this isn't about buying Canadian or Italian but in having the resources within reasonable response time.  It is a huge country and all the locations mentioned don't matter much to the chap on the ground north of Churchill. 

 

[geo]

... and that,s why we regularly stage out of places like Whitehorse, Yellowknife, Iqualuit, Resolute, Kuujuaq & Goose Bay.

 

[George Wallace]

Umm... that's why we have SAR resources in the following locations....

103 Rescue Squadron, Gander, Newfoundland
413 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Greenwood, Nova Scotia
424 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Trenton, Ontario
435 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Winnipeg, Manitoba
442 Transport and Rescue Squadron, Comox, British Columbia

And all of them are south of 60.  I am aware of the S&R capabilities from having had to initiate calls and flight follow you chaps for many, many years and I am aware of the response times.  this isn't about buying Canadian or Italian but in having the resources within reasonable response time.  It is a huge country and all the locations mentioned don't matter much to the chap on the ground north of Churchill. 

You left out 444 in Goose Bay........Who lost a Griffon on a SAR mission soon after they came into service.

 

[geo]

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/SARLinks/index_e.asp

I wanted to print a current list of sqns & did a look-up
the SAR secretariat had excluded 444 .... their bad

 

[aesop081]

the SAR secretariat had excluded 444 ....

No, they did not. 417 Sqn, 439 Sqn and 444 Sqn are combat support squadrons whos main role is to react to emergencies during local flying operations. Their secondary role is to maintain 12-hour SAR standby for national SAR taskings. They are not part of the NSS assisgned units.

their bad

Nope.

 

[Zoomie]

.  Hey, look at that Heinz is making a killing on ketchup.  Hey, how come your buying that Yankee ketchup.  I could make ketchup too, if you paid me to build a line, learn how to make it and find the suppliers.....and I bet it would be just about as good, eventually.  Me too, eh?

Very good example Kirkhill.

[quote author=CDN Aviatior]
Their secondary role is to maintain 12-hour SAR standby for national SAR taskings. [/quote]

Just like 407 recently, eh?

 

[Don2wing]

Kirkhill,
          We have chosen different paths in our lives. For you "me tooism" seems quite important. For myself I have been in business all my life and that means being innovative and developing products/ ideas for markets. Businesses can not afford to be the same as the next guy. We have to have continue bring these new products on stream and/or services needed. To do that we have to think outside of the box.

Your comments about DND not having any long term financing or directions is correct. The federal government for many years and including both Conservative and Liberal regimes have failed Canada in the renewal of infrastructure for DND and other departments. We know that both parties will justify that lack of spending until the sun goes down. This failure has lead directly to the sad state of defense/ ship building companies we have today. 

I was down in Australia recently and noticed in a grocery store that they had 8 feet of tomato sauce/ketchup from the floor up to ceiling comprising of many different sized bottles and brands. Surprising only one bottle facing and that was on the bottom was Heinz's. The Australians don't seem deprived by not having Heinz as their market leader in tomato sauces. In this case tomato sauce is tomato sauce and the main difference is the label. Tomato sauce was around long before Heinz was successful in branding their name with tomato sauce in the United States and Canada.
 
  I guess we are slightly off topic.

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps the strict Australian Regulations and Restrictions placed on importing food products would be a factor here.

 

[Don2wing]

GDawg,
        Nice that you have brought up the Arrow because it gives me a chance to talk about our successes. As you have kindly forgot to mention I will recall for you that the RCAF purchased from Canadair the following planes: Northstars, Cosmopolitans, Yukons/Argus, T-33s, F-86s and CF104s that all were built under license. This allowed Canadair to built the infrastructure for their own designs. Many of these planes were sold to countries adding jobs to the Canadian subcontractors as well as dollars back to Canada.  Canadair became Bombardier Aerospace, a world success story.

  I wish I could say the same about de Haviland Canada, the lack of leadership before, during and after the period when the government owned it. Boeing's ownership didn't help as they shut down the some of the aircraft production lines before they sold it to Bombardier. 

 

[aesop081]

GDawg,
        Nice that you have brought up the Arrow because it gives me a chance to talk about our successes.

An aircraft program that nearly bankrupted national defence and whos mission had all but ceased to exist before it went into production is a success ?

 

[GDawg]

GDawg,
        Nice that you have brought up the Arrow because it gives me a chance to talk about our successes. As you have kindly forgot to mention I will recall for you that the RCAF purchased from Canadair the following planes: Northstars, Cosmopolitans, Yukons/Argus, T-33s, F-86s and CF104s that all were built under license. This allowed Canadair to built the infrastructure for their own designs. Many of these planes were sold to countries adding jobs to the Canadian subcontractors as well as dollars back to Canada.  Canadair became Bombardier Aerospace, a world success story.

  I wish I could say the same about de Haviland Canada, the lack of leadership before, during and after the period when the government owned it. Boeing's ownership didn't help as they shut down the some of the aircraft production lines before they sold it to Bombardier. 

What does the CF-105 have to do with Canadair/de Havilland/Bombardier? You left out the CF-5 from the list as well.

 

[Kirkhill]

Kirkhill,
           We have chosen different paths in our lives.  .... I'm not sure about that.  Aside from a stint as a weekend warrior that I can't seem to shake I too have spent a while assisting people with new products and processes, specifically in the food industry.

For you "me tooism" seems quite important..... To be clear, I'm not recommending "me tooism"

For myself I have been in business all my life and that means being innovative and developing products/ ideas for markets. Businesses can not afford to be the same as the next guy. We have to have continue bring these new products on stream and/or services needed. To do that we have to think outside of the box.  ..... Perhaps you want to explain that to Canadian auto manufacturers, drug manufacturers and Cotts, to name a few.

 
  I guess we are slightly off topic...... No, I don't think we are off topic.  The question you raised was whether the Canadian Forces could buy a Canadian aircraft to fulfill at least one of their roles.  The general consensus, with which I am in agreement, is that there is no suitable Canadian transport aircraft availble for the Search and Rescue role.  I agree that, given time and money Canadians could eventually build an aircraft that would sell in sufficient numbers as to be profitable and that would meet the needs of the CF.......at some point in the future.  But the need is now and that aircraft isn't.  Perhaps Bombardier could do some out of the box thinking and look ahead to see what types of products the market WILL require and, pun intended, take a flyer.

 

[KingKikapu]

Maybe another point to consider is CF procurement isn't a make-work system for Canadian industries.

Contracts should go to the most competent and comprehensive bidder that actually satisfies the needs of the forces.  NOW.  Not in 5 years with a myriad of caveats and addendums.  NOW.  If nothing currently satisfies the needs, then that is a different story.

The CF is charged with saving our collective asses, not cultivating Canadian business.

 

[geo]

Heh... If we wait 40 years before doing procurement... then there is an immediate need

If there was planning & forethought & specs were issued at 20 years then, fine - local industry would have time to develop products that would meet needs.

 

[justthefacts]

This is quite laughable.
First, they show the C-27J as an upgrade but try to portray the vaporware new Buffalo (which as we know doesn't exist) as a separate aircraft.

As for the so-called fact that the C-27J can't operate on unprepared runways? This video is a pretty good demonstration of those capabilities!

http://www.c-27j.ca/tactical-takeoff-landing

Recent deployments of the C-27J in Afghanistan and for a humanitarian mission in Mali, under very difficult flight conditions show this is a real workhorse ideal for SAR

http://www.c-27j.ca/italian-air-force-c-27js-complete-five-month-deployment-to-afghanistan-0

http://www.c-27j.ca/files/new684_4.pdf

http://www.c-27j.ca/node/1437

Alenia can also offer a lot of opportunities to Canadian aerospace firms, arguably more than even Viking could with immediate access and participation in ongoing global supply lines for 200+ C-27Js going into production in North America starting next year.

 

[geo]

Ummm - justthefacts:
By curiosity - your being new here & all: do you have a personal interest in the selection of the C27J ?

 

[dapaterson]

A Google of "Stuart McCarthy" "Ottawa" suggests that he's a communications consultant.  Nothing wrong with that, but if he's a hired hand with Alenia or their partners he should provide disclosure of that fact.