FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Nfld Sapper]

Ok....

First......

:warstory:

Last time we built something totaly Canadian we ended up with the LSVW. 

Much that I would love to see a totally Cdn made item in our inventory, if we can't build it to the SOR then go for something that is already proven.


And yes I know I'm outside my lane..


Now where did I put my safe lane?

 

[Good2Golf]

I noticed that Viking "conveniently" left out the fact that the "Buff NG" is unpressurized...no discussion of service ceiling is made....there is no comparison in the available payload between the two (the C-27 is way ahead).

I have no dog in this fight, but really, there is no comparison between the two airplanes.  They are designed to do different things.

I'd also like to see the "projections" that fly the Buff at 300 kts (vice 235) -- that's a 28% increase in VNE and a 62% increase in power required (approximately the square of the linear speed increase), which would require the planned PW150 turboshaft engines to output 5070 SHP, compared to the existing Buffalo's CT64-820-4 engines currently rated at at 3130 SHP rated.  As SKT notes, there is no mention of the problems associated with an unpressurized cabin, in particular where one must fly in and around the mountains (where the Buff is currently limited to flying through mountain passes as opposed to being able to hop over the mountains while transiting from one area to another).

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Geo,
      Two points,
                        First - The Canadian government including the military gets its funding through taxes from Canadian companies and individuals. If the taxes collected decrease due to recession and /or depression, DND will not be funded at present levels as all government departments. This recession is becoming nastier by the day. Read the business papers about Canada and the rest of the world. The US, Europe, and Asia are suffering and indicators are getting worse. The Americans and Brits are going to continue to nationalize more banks.
                     
                       Secondly,
                                  Italy has Italian owned aircraft and helicopter manufacturers, to Iveco's military vehicles and the Italian built aircraft carrier Cavour. Canada cannot even build coast guard boats or JSS (  Our big honking boats). Our LAVs are built by GD who could move the factory to its home country. When we look at Germany, France or Sweden they all support home grown manufacturers who build to standards laid out in the public domain and not SORs spec'd to foreign products.  If we want to be a branch plant country then this is what we get. That is going to the mall and buying what ever is on the shelf or the sale bin.

Why do I get a smell that you have a vested interest with Viking and the Buffalo project and are trying to "sell" us on the idea of buying it?

 

[Good2Golf]

As you might have guessed by reading the papers we are in a recession and quite frankly I hope it becomes a economic depression. It will drive home the point that we should help ourselves first and not creat madework projects around the world.

Nice attitude -- yup, let's hope things get worse for all Canadians so that some homegrown industries can cater to internal profiteering while we stop helping some of the worlds' more unfortunate people by turning into "Fortress (self-interested) Canada".


Wow.  :

 

[KingKikapu]

Protectionism has to be one of the biggest boneheaded ways to run an economy.

I realise there are security concerns with outsourcing military hardware from other nations, but god damn it, if a canadian company lacks the product or the skill to provide the necessary service that a purchaser needs, then they don't deserve the contract, especially if only for the sake of saving a few canadian jobs.

If it were a major keystone canadian industry with far reaching ripple effects, then maybe you could consider it, but only if you tread lightly.
This is not that situation.  People could very well die if the plane can't do what is asked of it.

 

[Don2wing]

NFLD Sapper,
                I have no interest or connection to Viking. What I have is pride in seeing successful Canadian companies selling their products in Canada and around the world. When I am travelling outside Canada I am always thrilled to see Canadian. So we are talking Viking here but it could be oil companies, engineering sector or riding Bombardier planes on the other side of the world.
Canadians living in Canada don't always see it that way.

 

 

[Nfld Sapper]

NFLD Sapper,
                I have no interest or connection to Viking. What I have is pride in seeing successful Canadian companies selling their products in Canada and around the world. When I am travelling outside Canada I am always thrilled to see Canadian. So we are talking Viking here but it could be oil companies, engineering sector or riding Bombardier planes on the other side of the world.
Canadians living in Canada don't always see it that way.

 

Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target. We have already pointed out that the Viking refurbished Buffalo or currently any canadian aircraft (I stand to be correct by those in the know in the FWSAR Communit) does not meet the SOR set out by National Defence.

I'm sure that the majority of the people here would like to see a canadian made airframe win but if we can't produce what is needed then we have no other choice but to go with another countries build.

 

[geo]

Don & Sapper....

Remember - there are time constraints for this purchase.

The airframes we currently have are getting old & tired - showing cracks where there shouldn't be any - they need to be replaced sooner VS later.

The C27J is a proven design that is currently in production - we sign up, we put our deposits down & our names are added to the production schdedule.

The Next Generation Buffalo is presently only on paper... like the plans that Viking bought from Bombardier / Dehaviland & conceptual musings of what "new" gear that can be installed.  There are no existing production lines, there are no frame jiggs from which to build these new planes... it will take time and a lot of money to get a Next Gen Buffalo in the air & I do not think we have the time it takes to do it.

Also - WRT your musings about the Italian Air Force flying Italian built planes. Ummm... the fly Italian, American, French & EU planes.  Their forestry service fly the Bombardier CL415.  Alitalia, the state airline flies a mix of Boeing, Airbus, Embraer & MDs... not all that pure italian racing bloodline IMHO

 

[karl28]

             Well I think after reading a bit that the C27 is the way go seems to have every thing the Airforce needs  where as the new Buff doesn't .    With that I am not saying that Viking should stop trying to build a new buff but in stead of going for the Airforce  maybe they could build them for the Canadian Cost guard I imagine that they could use some more planes for Fishery Patrols or what ever kind of patrols that they do ?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Transport Canada runs the aircraft except for a few Fisheries Patrol aircraft which might be on contract if i recall. A new Buff would not be the configuration they would be looking for. New twin Otters might be a different story.

 

[geo]

Twin otters ... which Viking has started to produce... Great plane
They truly opened up the Great white north - giving reliable pasenger/freight service to distant northern communities.
Takes a licking & keeps on ticking.

 

[Haletown]

27 in A-stan

http://worldwidewarpigs.blogspot.com/2009/02/italian-af-c-27js-complete-afghan.html


nice video.

 

[Kirkhill]

Is this a fair assessment?

The Twin Otter:  A good search platform because of low and slow capability but limited rescue capability and even more limited transport capability because of volume and doors.
The Buffalo:  Likewise a good search platform because of low and slow capability, better rescue and transport capability because of space and doors but has deployment issues because of speed and range (and altitude)
The Herc:  A good search platform and rescue and transport with better deployability but very expensive to operate.
The C27J:  Too new to have a solid track record but intended to have good low and slow characteristics compatible with search (and rough strip) operations, good rescue and transport capabilities because of space and doors, good deployability due to speed, range and altitude and ALSO cheaper to operate than a Herc.
The C295?  Similar to the C27J but smaller, slower and with shorter legs.

If the above is true then, leaving the C295/C27 discussion aside building Otters, Buffalos and Hercs would meet the requirements of the Air Force with three platforms, buying the C27 would do some of the jobs of all three and reduce the need for multiple maintenance staffs.

I am guessing that if the C27 were procured then there would likely be jobs for L3 Spar? in Edmonton. 

So is this going to be another CF-18 maintenance issue (for the youngsters Hawker? in Winnipeg had the skills and the industrial alliance with McDonnell Douglas, manufacturer of the CF-18 located just down the highway in St-Louis, the maintenance contract was awarded to Bombardier? or CAE? in Montreal where employees had to hired and trained, industrial links and commercial agreements signed to meet the maintenance requirements of the CF - that contributed to the demise of the Conservatives out west and the rise of the Reform party. The Liberals were perceived as screwing the West on oil policy with the NEP, the Conservatives screwed them on the CF18 contract and both of them screwed it with removing the Crow Rate that favoured shipping coal and grain for export and reduced the cost of importing farm machinery IIRC).

My bet is that, given the lack of response from the Quebec electorate, that Stephen Harper will be inclined to play to his core on this one.  That will either allow him to keep the party intact to allow it to fight another day or, if he gets really, really lucky, win a majority without the support of Quebec.

 

[Don2wing]

  Kirkhill,
              What version of the Buffalo are you commenting on, the existing CC-115 or the DHC-5NG?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Gonna go out on the limb and say he's talking about the existing Buffalo airframe and not the CONCEPTUAL one by Viking.

 

[Don2wing]

So we are talking not new airframes, but the old Buffs and not upgraded.

 

[Kirkhill]

Gonna go out on the limb and say he's talking about the existing Buffalo airframe and not the CONCEPTUAL one by Viking.

You can crawl back in now Sapper.  Yes, I am talking about actual, "available" airframes.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Don2Wing: There is NO DHC-5NG.  It does NOT exists...  How can you talk about performance of an airplane that is not even designed on paper yet?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

You can crawl back in now Sapper.  Yes, I am talking about actual, "available" airframes.

Good, since I'm afraid of heights  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Good, since I'm afraid of heights  ;D

So that's why you picked a trade making holes is it?