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Election 2015

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Good2Golf said:
No one here was saying that Trudeau's only reason to eliminate income splitting was due to his inability to understand the middle classes.  Many have pointed out that they feel Trudeau is unqualified to play the "I'm one of you, I understand the middle class" card. 

You were the one who actually brought specifics of income splitting into the "Trudeau-not-Middle-Class" discussion by linking eliminating income splitting with Tom Mulcair as well, then stating that he was middlier than Harper.

With a family of nine children and Mme. Mulcair staying at home to care for the family, M. Mulcair Sr., post-retirment income would have gone farther under an income-splitting regime.  I can only imagine that Tom Mulcair is basing his decision to eliminate income splitting for reasons other than his own childhood conditions.

Good2Golf said:
That doesn't mean his jacketless, sleeves-rolled-up traipse up the hill with the Parliamentary Library in the background vowing his readiness makes him "one of us" or be able to get what it means being middle class.  A middle class family that didn't have the luxury of two professional incomes would very much appreciate the income splitting tax benefit when the time comes to spend some more time with the children and grand-children. Trudeau wants to take that away from us.  It doesn't resonate with him because he has no comprehension of the concept...

also, http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/would-opposition-parties-scrap-pension-income-splitting-1.3064910

The facts

Both opposition parties have explicitly said they would not touch pension income splitting, which allows pensioners to allocate up to half their pension income to their spouses, resulting in significant tax savings.

In a speech to seniors last October, Trudeau accused the Conservatives of taking his words out of context when he voiced his opposition to income splitting for couples with young children, which studies have found would benefit just 15 per cent of Canadian households, primarily the wealthiest.

Budget NDP 20150118
NDP finance critic Nathan Cullen has challenged Jason Kenney on Twitter for claiming the NDP would end income-splitting for seniors. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

"As much as the Conservatives might wish they had the power to control every piece of policy that comes out of Ottawa, they won't be writing the Liberal party's platform," he said. "We will not end pension income splitting for seniors."

In January, NDP finance critic Nathan Cullen corrected the record after Defence Minister Jason Kenney took to Twitter to assert that "the NDP's pledge to reverse family tax fairness also means they'll take income splitting away from pensioners."

Conservative attack ads seem to be working their magic though...

The facts of the matter are, whether a senior votes for the LPC, NDP or CPC, none of the major parties will touch income splitting for seniors who want to spend time with their grandchildren.
 
Altair said:
While I'm happy income splitting works for you and your family, it doesn't work for mine and many others.

Single men and women get no benefit

Families with two people earning around the same amount get no benefit

Doesn't help me and my wife, since we both earn within a couple thousand of each other.

What would help me is and increase of the UCCB by making it means based. While I have yet to see the specifics on that, it would help me more under trudeau than it would under harper or mulcair, on top of a drop in my income taxes.

So vote according to your wallet by all means, but don't think that any party covers the needs of all Canadians, or one is vastly superior to anothers. At best its a wash.

You do know that what you are saying is all BS.


Of course the benefits being talked about will not apply to everyone.  Only and IDIOT would think that every benefit and tax break would apply to them.  They apply only to the persons who qualify.  You may not qualify for one while another person does; and vice versa. 

Stop talking nonsense.
 
George Wallace said:
You do know that what you are saying is all BS.


Of course the benefits being talked about will not apply to everyone.  Only and IDIOT would think that every benefit and tax break would apply to them.  They apply only to the persons who qualify.  You may not qualify for one while another person does; and vice versa. 

Stop talking nonsense.
I said it's a wash. Income splitting, tax cuts for middle class, 15 dollar a day daycare, means based UCCB, none is inherently superior to another.

I don't see the problem in what I said. :-\
 
Or, instead of recursive anti-quoting of quotes, how about we take the other parties' positions directly from their websites?


http://www.ndp.ca/income-splitting
Middle-class families are working harder but falling further behind.

Instead of helping, Stephen Harper is handing a big gift to those who already have the most.

His costly income-splitting scheme would give the biggest benefits to the wealthiest Canadians—while 85% of families would see no benefit at all.

Tom Mulcair’s NDP is fighting to give the middle class a break. We’ll start by reversing Harper’s tax giveaway to the wealthy—and invest in your priorities instead.



http://www.liberal.ca/realchange/cancelling-tax-breaks-and-benefits-for-the-wealthy/

CANCELLING TAX BREAKS AND BENEFITS FOR THE WEALTHY

We'll cancel income splitting and other tax breaks and benefits for the wealthy.
 
Young Trudeau can't be middle class. He can't understand the middle class. He has no idea how to help the middle class and he doesn't understand what the middle class is telling him.

Why, you ask?

Quite simple really. At the start of the campaign, every time he mentioned the middle class, someone asked him to define it. To this day, he still can't say what constitutes the middle class. He simply parrots what his handlers tell him. Most of them being Laurentian Elitists, they can't define the middle class either.
 
>Hard left  Communists  ...  Hard right Reform

Seriously?  Reform took 18-19% of the vote; the Marxist-Leninists took < 1%.
 
We’ll start by reversing Harper’s tax giveaway to the wealthy—and invest in your priorities instead.

Of course, that means taxing the shit out of the working middle class, in order to use our money for social programs aimed at those that don't work.
 
How long does someone need to be out of his "lane" before skill fade shows?

How long does someone need to be a full-time nationally prominent politician before you acknowledge he is no longer middle class, and really has no clue what being middle class means in concrete terms unless he has been routinely shopping for groceries, living in a middle class neighbourhood, leading a middle class life.

My parents grew up working class, and sure as sh!t aren't working class anymore.  All of my grandparents grew up working poor, and two of them died very much middle class+.  People - especially reporters and political fartcatchers (well, forget them, it's what they do) - should stop peddling bullsh!t about how politicians' childhoods and upbringing are necessarily relevant to the pots and chickens they are promising today.

>I said it's a wash. Income splitting, tax cuts for middle class, 15 dollar a day daycare, means based UCCB, none is inherently superior to another.

Anything which leaves pure cash with no attachments in the pockets of families with children is superior to any targeted benefit.  Money for daycare, or tax credits for particular activities, are inherently inferior.  Someone has already cited relevant information; the LPC and NDP objection to income splitting is that it benefits people who already have some money.  But so too will their subsidized daycare plans.  The daycare scheme is critical to the NDP and LPC because each must win well in QC, and QC is starting to find its daycare scheme unaffordable.  QC wants more money from the RoC, and daycare is a vehicle to deliver it.  The NDP and LPC are hoping to create another net transfer into QC without RoC noticing.  So far the media are letting them get away with it.
 
Brad Sallows said:
How long does someone need to be out of his "lane" before skill fade shows?

How long does someone need to be a full-time nationally prominent politician before you acknowledge he is no longer middle class, and really has no clue what being middle class means in concrete terms unless he has been routinely shopping for groceries, living in a middle class neighbourhood, leading a middle class life.

My parents grew up working class, and sure as sh!t aren't working class anymore.  All of my grandparents grew up working poor, and two of them died very much middle class+.  People - especially reporters and political fartcatchers (well, forget them, it's what they do) - should stop peddling bullsh!t about how politicians' childhoods and upbringing are necessarily relevant to the pots and chickens they are promising today.

>I said it's a wash. Income splitting, tax cuts for middle class, 15 dollar a day daycare, means based UCCB, none is inherently superior to another.

Anything which leaves pure cash with no attachments in the pockets of families with children is superior to any targeted benefit.  Money for daycare, or tax credits for particular activities, are inherently inferior.  Someone has already cited relevant information; the LPC and NDP objection to income splitting is that it benefits people who already have some money.  But so too will their subsidized daycare plans.  The daycare scheme is critical to the NDP and LPC because each must win well in QC, and QC is starting to find its daycare scheme unaffordable.  QC wants more money from the RoC, and daycare is a vehicle to deliver it.  The NDP and LPC are hoping to create another net transfer into QC without RoC noticing.  So far the media are letting them get away with it.
LPC doesn't have a daycare plan as far as I'm tracking.

As far as pandering to Quebec, the NDP has a lock on that.
 
Altair said:
Yes, for everyone else both the LPC and NDP would end income splitting, however all parties would keep income splitting for seniors.

Agreed?

Actually no.  I read their policies, and while they imply that seniors are not wealthy, their respective policies  (well, the NDP's is actually rather vague) use wealth as the elimination selection criteria, not age, so a wealthy senior couple with one penion income would have the splitting benefit eliminated.
 
"This government brought in income splitting for Canadian pensioners. That (Liberal) party voted against it and that party has, in the past, threatened to take it away from our seniors."
— Prime Minister Stephen Harper, April 22.

"We have introduced pension income splitting, which the opposition parties say they would revoke."
— Conservative MP Peter Kent, April 23.

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau have both vowed to scrap the centrepiece of the Conservatives' family tax benefit package: allowing couples with young children to split their income for tax purposes.

Since the so-called family tax cut was announced last October, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, his ministers and backbench Conservatives have repeatedly asserted that the two opposition parties would also scrap pension income splitting, a measure the Harper government introduced in 2007.

How accurate is that assertion? Does opposing parental income splitting automatically mean opposing it for pensioners? Does the fact that opposition parties voted against pension income splitting mean they'd get rid of it?

Spoiler Alert: The Canadian Press Baloney Meter is a dispassionate examination of political statements culminating in a ranking of accuracy on a scale of "no baloney" to "full of baloney" (complete methodology below).
Full of baloney
This one earns a rating of "full of baloney." The assertion is completely inaccurate. Here's why.

The facts

Both opposition parties have explicitly said they would not touch pension income splitting, which allows pensioners to allocate up to half their pension income to their spouses, resulting in significant tax savings.

In a speech to seniors last October, Trudeau accused the Conservatives of taking his words out of context when he voiced his opposition to income splitting for couples with young children, which studies have found would benefit just 15 per cent of Canadian households, primarily the wealthiest.

Budget NDP 20150118
NDP finance critic Nathan Cullen has challenged Jason Kenney on Twitter for claiming the NDP would end income-splitting for seniors. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

"As much as the Conservatives might wish they had the power to control every piece of policy that comes out of Ottawa, they won't be writing the Liberal party's platform," he said. "We will not end pension income splitting for seniors."

In January, NDP finance critic Nathan Cullen corrected the record after Defence Minister Jason Kenney took to Twitter to assert that "the NDP's pledge to reverse family tax fairness also means they'll take income splitting away from pensioners."

"@kenneyjason got it wrong again," Cullen tweeted. "NDP committed 2 keeping income splitting 4 seniors."


The Prime Minister's Office did not respond when asked to identify any statements by opposition MPs that would prove the Conservative contention.

However, in the House of Commons, Harper and other Tories backed up their assertion by repeatedly pointing out that NDP and Liberal MPs voted against pension income splitting in 2007.

That's true.

But it overlooks the fact that pension income splitting was included in a 156-page omnibus budget implementation bill that included dozens of other measures, most controversially a new formula for calculating equalization payments to have-not provinces that outraged Atlantic provinces, especially Newfoundland and Labrador.

Liberals and New Democrats voted against the omnibus bill. Harper's government, a minority at the time, survived the vote on the bill with the support of the separatist Bloc Québécois.

Notwithstanding their opposition to the budget bill, Jack Layton, NDP leader at the time, advised Canadians who wrote to him on the issue that "New Democrats support the government's proposed change to permit pension splitting."

What the experts say

Parliamentary procedure expert Ned Franks called it "100 per cent baloney" to infer that a vote against an omnibus bill constitutes a vote against every measure in the bill.

Justin Trudeau announces economic policy
Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said Monday a Liberal government would not end income splitting for seniors, as he rolled out his tax and child benefit plan in Aylmer, Que. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

"In an omnibus bill, you as a member of Parliament vote once, but you're voting on maybe 50 different pieces of legislation on 50 totally different topics, and you might agree with 10 or 12 of them and strongly disagree with 20 of them and the other ones you might mildly support," Franks said.

"That's the problem. I think the omnibus bills are pernicious."

Harper himself used to agree.

As an opposition MP in 1994, he urged the Speaker of the House of Commons to rule out of order an omnibus budget bill introduced by Jean Chretien's Liberal government.

"I would argue that the subject matter of the bill is so diverse that a single vote on the content would put members in conflict with their own principles," Harper said.

"We can agree with some of the measures but oppose others. How do we express our views and the views of our constituents when the matters are so diverse?"

The Liberal omnibus bill Harper objected to was 20 pages in length. Since becoming prime minister himself in 2006, his government has routinely introduced massive omnibus budget bills, regularly ranging from 300 to almost 900 pages.

The verdict

There is no truth to the Conservative assertion that the NDP and Liberals would scrap pension income splitting should they form government. Both parties have explicitly said they would keep the measure.

The assertion that both opposition parties voted against pension income splitting is specious, given that the measure was part of an omnibus bill that included a host of other measures, some of which were hugely controversial at the time.

For these reasons, the claim that opposition parties would do away with pension income splitting is "full of baloney."

Methodology

The Baloney Meter is a project of The Canadian Press that examines the level of accuracy in statements made by politicians. Each claim is researched and assigned a rating based on the following scale

I'm not talking about this anymore. I'm leaving this here and you can believe whatever you want. I believe the Canadian press.
 
M Trudeau is not to blame for his birth.

But, he is not qualified to be much of anything (because he squandered opportunities about which "middle class" and poor kids could only dream) ... he is especially not qualified to lead a G7 country.

In my (admittedly biased) opinion, he is nothing more than a human sock puppet for a team of Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne's political acolytes ... and I'm not sure he's sufficiently qualified for that role.

If you have a good, solid Liberal candidate in your riding ~ and there are plenty, over a hundred, of them ~ then, by all means, vote Liberal. If, however, you are going to vote Liberal based on M Trudeau's qualities then I think you are either incredibly naive or terminally bloody foolish.
 
Altair said:
...
There is no truth to the Conservative assertion that the NDP and Liberals would scrap pension income splitting should they form government. Both parties have explicitly said they would keep the measure.
...

I'm not talking about this anymore. I'm leaving this here and you can believe whatever you want. I believe the Canadian press.

But the very links to their official websites show the above statement to be untrue.

How could you choose to "believe the Canadian press" when its quotations are factually counter to the parties' official positions?  ???
 
E.R. Campbell said:
M Trudeau is not to blame for his birth.

But, he is not qualified to be much of anything (because he squandered opportunities about which "middle class" and poor kids could only dream) ... he is especially not qualified to lead a G7 country.

In my (admittedly biased) opinion, he is nothing more than a human sock puppet for a team of Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne's political acolytes ... and I'm not sure he's sufficiently qualified for that role.

If you have a good, solid Liberal candidate in your riding ~ and there are plenty, over a hundred, of them ~ then, by all means, vote Liberal. If, however, you are going to vote Liberal based on M Trudeau's qualities then I think you are either incredibly naive or terminally bloody foolish.
Very happy to be voting liberal for Mr Trudeaus attributes  ;D
 
Good2Golf said:
I'm not talking about this anymore. I'm leaving this here and you can believe whatever you want. I believe the Canadian press.


But the very links to their official websites show the above statement to be untrue.

How could you choose to "believe the Canadian press" when its quotations are factually counter to the parties' official positions?  ???
Both leaders have said they would keep income splitting for seniors, and Trudeau went as far as to assert that during the Maclean debate.

But really, I have no more interest in this discussion. Believe what you will.
 
Altair said:
Quote from: E.R. Campbell on Today at 22:12:34
M Trudeau is not to blame for his birth.

But, he is not qualified to be much of anything (because he squandered opportunities about which "middle class" and poor kids could only dream) ... he is especially not qualified to lead a G7 country.

In my (admittedly biased) opinion, he is nothing more than a human sock puppet for a team of Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne's political acolytes ... and I'm not sure he's sufficiently qualified for that role.

If you have a good, solid Liberal candidate in your riding ~ and there are plenty, over a hundred, of them ~ then, by all means, vote Liberal. If, however, you are going to vote Liberal based on M Trudeau's qualities then I think you are either incredibly naive or terminally bloody foolish.
Very happy to be voting liberal for Mr Trudeaus attributes  ;D

I'm not surprised ...  :dunno:
 
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