Do Canadians even care anymore?

[Acorn]

From what I've seen of Worthington's work I question whether he remembers his service at all. He often regurguitates the most ill-informed nonsense.

Acorn

 

[marlene]

I believe that it's a sad fact of our society that it's those that SCREAM the loudest and act out are the ones that are heard and are taken to be in the majority when I don't believe that's true. I think there are many Canadians who do care about the CF but they simply aren't heard. They're not out there yelling and making spectacles of themselves. Plus I don't think the media helps matters. Correct me if I'm wrong but when the tragedy happened on the sub - the Chicoutimi I heard all kinds of garbage circulating. Blame the Brits for selling us faulty subs, blame the military for lack of training, etc. Just total BS. I didn't once hear the media putting the blame squarely where it belonged in my view - on the government for putting us in a position where we are forced to buy used equipment in the first place.

merlane

 

[Slim]

I didn't once hear the media putting the blame squarely where it belonged in my view - on the government for putting us in a position where we are forced to buy used equipment in the first place.

I bet that there is a good reason for that...If the media blame the govt. then their sourses might dry up...I don't know, just a thought.

Slim

 

[armyrules]

We need to stop buying crap. I Think it's time the liberals take a seat on the bench next election.

        I feel the exact same way they don't give a @#$% about the military and that angers me not only angers but dissapoints me as well

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041215.wxmilitary15/BNStory/National/

This guy still cares.  Sgt Barney Danson. One of Trudeau's MNDs, and his best.  Might carry some more weight with His PMness.

 

[bossi]

I missed the Danson article, but noticed former MND Collenette speaking out (and pointing a finger directly at Papa Doc Crouton, I was pleased to see - I guess "being out of politics" has its' advantages vis-a-vis Cottenelle being able to speaks his mind ... chuckle!)

 

[commando_wolf63]

Our Govt looked at the initial cost of buying Equipment for our CF. Sure it was cheaper to buy Used vs New but in the long run did the taxpayers really save money? I dont think so. In the long run we had to upgrade before we were able to put this equipment into service. (Maybe this why the previous owner decided to buy new)

Until the average Joe Canadian wakes up and smells the coffee and starts holding our elected members of Govt accountable. They will continue to get away with buying second hand junk from other Countries( this Equip was discarded to upgrade their Military). Perhaps if the Children of those in office were obligated to serve in the CF. Maybe then the members of the CF would be treated better.

 

[Acorn]

Until the average Joe Canadian wakes up and smells the coffee and starts holding our elected members of Govt accountable. They will continue to get away with buying second hand junk from other Countries( this Equip was discarded to upgrade their Military).

Is there a "know what you are talking about" rule?

Untill the average Joe Canadian has a micro schmic about the CF and acquisitions we'll be assaulted by illl-informed BS from self-appointed critics.

FYI, the subs in question were NOT "...discarded to upgrade [the British] military." Come back when you know WTF you are talking about. Not as just as sock puppet for Scott Taylor.

Acorn

 

[pbi]

Our Govt looked at the initial cost of buying Equipment for our CF. Sure it was cheaper to buy Used vs New but in the long run did the taxpayers really save money? I dont think so. In the long run we had to upgrade before we were able to put this equipment into service. (Maybe this why the previous owner decided to buy new)

Until the average Joe Canadian wakes up and smells the coffee and starts holding our elected members of Govt accountable. They will continue to get away with buying second hand junk from other Countries( this Equip was discarded to upgrade their Military). Perhaps if the Children of those in office were obligated to serve in the CF. Maybe then the members of the CF would be treated better.

Apart from these subs, what "second hand junk from other countries" have we bought recently? And anyway, before we blame the Govt only, where were the Navy's leaders and technical experts during the very lengthy process leading up to the purchase of these vessels and, eventually, the Chicoutmi fire? If the subs are the horrors that people claim, surely the Navy's people bear some responsibility? Or were they sworn to silence? Cheers.

 

[bossi]

Apart from these subs, what "second hand junk from other countries" have we bought recently?

Good point - virtually everything the Army buys is NOT second hand, ditto for the Air Force - thus, the sub purchase was an exception rather than the rule (hmmm ... and so were HMCS Rainbow and Niobe ... chuckle)

 

[gnplummer421]

Greetings,

As an ex-military person working in a civilian environment (manufacturing plant) Most civiilians just don't know anything about our forces, except those who have family or friends that are serving. When I mention the word Coyote at work, most guys will say " yeah, we had some in our yard the other day" I had to shoot them. You see what I'm getting at. The other thing is, people will respond to articles in the paper, and "feel sorry" for the Army, but given the choice between paying higher taxes or reducing money to Health Care, the Forces always seem to get the shaft. Civilians will scream bloody murder if our Country is ever attacked in one way or another, and we don'r have enough people to fight back, but it will be too late then. Everybody wants an effective well equipped Army, but no-one wants to pay up...the sad truth. 

 

[Slim]

Oh I think that there is enough money around to pay for quite a bit...The LIBERALS just don't want to!

Slim

 

[commando_wolf63]

The point I was trying to make was the average Joe doent know what is like to have served in our military

 

[SHARP WO]

You are right, the average joe civvie doesn't know about the army. The way to get people to know the Army is to teach it, and only by Military pers, if you ask "why", go sit in a History class and see what the current education system is teaching the young kids today.

SHARP WO

 

[Meridian]

Canada and canadians do not like to think of themselves as a "war-like" people. We do not like to consider the need for a military to be anything more than peace-keeping - we have the US for homeland defence afterall.

Example:  Recent Presidential elections, the military backgrounds of the candidates were front and centre. A deeply patriotic (and military sensitive) people, the Americans support their army to the ends of the earth... and as they should. Without getting into US economic dependency on military force projection, and defence spending, Americans grow up fostering a deep sense of their own history (however fragmented and distorted it may be taught) and thus have a great reverence for their place in the world, and the need for their military to sustain it.

Canada is different. We all come from different places, much of our pop is provided for by immigration. We have become a place for acceptance, and our culture is generally one of open arms (from social programs to immigration to refugees to stranded air passengers, to strippergate, we accept em all). As a result, while many Canadians love our place in the world, many don't feel the need to pronounce it. Because we dont do this, and we did not have a violent independence movement from Britain (at least as compared to the US) we have never fostered the need for a strong military presence to establish ourselves in the world. As a matter of fact, much of this was left up to Britain fairly far into the early 1900s.  We have always depended on someone else to do the work for us on hte regular term... and we only come running when the situation is dire.

Im talking generally here, but from my perspective of a student of law and political science, the general cultural sense in Canada is one of acceptance, diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy, let the other guy do the warring, and then step in when it matters most. 

 

[bossi]

... Im talking generally here, but from my perspective of a student of law and political science, the general cultural sense in Canada is ...

From my perspecitive, remembering back to when I was student (i.e. before enlisting) ... I had the impression that Canada didn't start wars, but we helped finish a few.  However, decades of revisionist history have taken their toll, with the result that many Canadians have become deluded by the myth of peacekeeping (vice peace-making) and forgotten Canada's real wartime contributions.

Thus, some Canadians have been misled into thinking a peacekeeping constabulary would be adequate instead of a combat capable army.
(as they say:  "you can water the lawn with a fire hose, but you can't fight fires with a garden hose" ...)

 

[Meridian]

bossi... but even in those wars, Canada was led to them by the British, no? I do not mean to dilute any of our contributions in those terrible times, and I further re-inforce our contributions in them, but Canada wasn't even responsible for its own foreign affairs until post WWI.....  It seems as if we've almost given up the Brits as our "big brother" and traded them in for the even bigger Americans.... 

I must note that I find this extremely frustrating, but I find people time and time again (esp conservatives) who tell me we don't need a military, that we should focus on here at home, and leave world policing to the americans....  How do we combat this argument?  People seem to tune out the need for a seat at the world table in favour of a better functioning healthcare system.

Sure Canadians support the great work done overseas... but theyd RATHER have healthcare, if they have to choose between the two....  or is this not the case?

 

[gnplummer421]

Ahh the Health care system, definitely the peoples favourite it seems. I agree IMHO, that the population would never trade off any part of it to bolster Defence, or support directing funds to defence if it takes away from our social programs. It is up to military minded/experienced people to educate the masses, I would have liked to have seen ex- General Lou Mackenzie get a seat in the house to start the process, or at least win his riding...always liked that guy.

 

[2FERSapper]

After reading through this thread i realized that many among you have come to the same conclusion that i have come to along with many others. That the only event that will really wake this country up is a 9/11 like event. The tragic part of this is that when such a event happens there will be a massive outcry from the Canadian Population screaming about how the government did nothing to prevent it. That the measures taken to prevent and deal with such events were not drastic enough and that our military and other government agencies failed to do their jobs in protecting this country.I don't know if any  of you agree with the second part of my statement but this is my 2 cents.

 

[bossi]

According to this Toronto Star article, many Canadians DO care ...

http://army.ca/forums/threads/24094.0.html

... But during a visit to Edmonton and more recent chats with Toronto businessmen, the defence minister said he was struck by the demands of Canadians that the government step up its support of the military.

"It was unbelievable. Young people with kids, young women coming up to me and saying, `Mr. Graham, it's so important we support our troops,'" he said of his Edmonton visit.