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Do Canadians even care anymore?

RorerQuaalude - You can't blame the younger generation for not understanding what we do. Both Worlds Wars, Korea, and Vietnam are almost forgotten by the civilian populous. Parents are not taking what I believe is the responsibility to teach their children what price we as soldiers have to pay so that they can live free of tyranny. The schools can't teach appropriately enough because Canadian society on a whole frowns upon "war mongering". School higher archy are bureaucrats, and therefore think it is bad business to talk about armed forces and what we do. Thus doing the bare minimum in history class and on Remembrance Day to "Honour" are soldiers past and present. Granted I get ticked off when somebody young tries to impress   his/her friends with comments about the "army".....but I've learned to calm myself by reminding myself that it is ignorance on their part, and total lack of respect on the part of their parents. And that makes me ashamed of my own countries populous.
 
If behaviour like that continues to be excused then the situation will never change.
 
I blame the younger generation. That is to say the up and coming 'I expect everything, but will do nothing in return' generation. These are the snot-nosed pissants that do nothing but be whiny pains in the arse, the ones that expect everything to be spoon fed to them. When sh*t hits the fan, these are the ones that play the blame game, or plain out plead ignorance. It will be up to the exceptions to lead future generations, and prevent them from falling into this rut.
 
Are you all in this for the recognition or the "support" from the populace? F*** them, I bet all civil servants (like cops/mailmen/maintance crews) could complain equally, and have their own sets of problems.
 
nULL said:
Are you all in this for the recognition or the "support" from the populace? F*** them, I bet all civil servants (like cops/mailmen/maintance crews) could complain equally, and have their own sets of problems.

Null you have a point. Some of my Fire Service friends in Calgary related to me some of the very whiny, nasty "I'm a taxpayer" type complaints they get. One complaint was because the crew was enjoying a pleasant summer evening by sitting on deck chairs on the station ramp with the doors open (I don't get paid to sit on my job-why do they?). Another was because on returning to quarters from a particularly hot and dirty summer brush fire, they pulled in at a 7/11 to get slurpees. A citizen sent in a complaint that they were slacking off. To top this, an alderman tried to start a campaign to take the bunk rooms out of the stations, and to have firefighters out shovelling snow or delivering city interoffice mail between calls.
There are idiots everywhere. Cheers.
 
pbi said:
...

To top this, an alderman tried to start a campaign to take the bunk rooms out of the stations, and to have firefighters out shovelling snow or delivering city interoffice mail between calls.
There are idiots everywhere. Cheers.

HAHAHA!!!! Right, so, they're supposed to respond quickly and effectively to a fire, if they're out and about using their energy doing "chores"? 

Gah, I'm glad I don't live in that area.
 
Always some a$$hole who will say and/or do anything for a vote.
 
I blame the younger generation. That is to say the up and coming 'I expect everything, but will do nothing in return' generation. These are the snot-nosed pissants that do nothing but be whiny pains in the arse, the ones that expect everything to be spoon fed to them. When sh*t hits the fan, these are the ones that play the blame game, or plain out plead ignorance. It will be up to the exceptions to lead future generations, and prevent them from falling into this rut.

I think every generation says the samething about "their" younger generation.  And you know what, it's that generation that grows up and says the same thing about the next. :)
 
Inch said:
I don't think Mulroney was light years ahead of the Libs, but the 1987 Defence White paper came out under his government and it was this white paper that stated we should have Nuke subs among other things. Mind you, the end of the Cold War certainly put a damper on that white paper.   Unfortunately, I feel the world is a worse place now.   There's no clearly defined enemy anymore and I don't think anyone in power really knows what direction we should be heading let alone how to get there. It was Mulroney's government that made the deal for the 50 EH101s that was promptly cancelled by Chretien.

So I don't think he was that much better, it was just different times and circumstances.

CFL, I don't even think a military disaster would hit home as much as a plane flying into a building in downtown TO. I sure hope for the sake of Canadians it doesn't happen but I think it's the only way people will realize the world we live in.

Just my $0.02

Cheers

Lol nah if a plane hit a building in downtown Toronto they would probably just blame the United States and have a smoke pot for freedom rally >:(
 
pbi said:
To top this, an alderman tried to start a campaign to take the bunk rooms out of the stations, and to have firefighters out shovelling snow or delivering city interoffice mail between calls.
There are idiots everywhere. Cheers.

Sweet effing crap. Then there would be complaints because the fire fighters didnt perfrom well because they stayed up all night shovelling snow....
 
I have my opinions of certain canadian communities who have become complacent with life as they know it.
Their will be cries and wimpers about police brutality and unfair policing until they get beaten and mugged and then they wonder where were the police?
They will complain about property taxes and why should the damn fire fighters have it so easy then their house will catch fire, oh sh*t they can't get here soon enough !
Then they b*cth and moan about spending money on national defence, then these same people wonder why the army doesn't spring into action when third world terrorist manage to kill five thousand people in two towers.

I mention 9/11 because it is really close to home. The attitude that we are canadians and the world views us different is BS as well. Ask the suicide bomber that killed corporal Murphy almost a year ago or the serbs who took canadians hostage or the croats in the medac pocket who fired on 2PPCLI (hoo-rah my old unit)...
Canadians sooner or later will learn..
COMPLACENCY KILLS....
 
ArmyRick

Well said Sir, well said...

Now if only they'd listen!

Slim
 
Continuing the theme of "Do Canadians even care anymore?"
This article suggests some do:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Licia_Corbella/2004/12/12/pf-778554.html

Power of the Maple Leaf
Flag patch does us proud and nowhere more so than our troops' deeds in Afghanistan

By Licia Corbella, Sun, December 12, 2004

Much fuss is being made about a U.S. company selling special kits to help Americans look like Canadians while travelling abroad.

"Americans Traveling Overseas -- Consider Going Canadian!" states the website of www.t-shirtking.com.

The enterprising company is selling "Go Canadian" disguise kits for $24.95 -- U.S. of course.

The kits include a Canadian flag emblazoned T-shirt, badge, sticker, pin and a tongue-in-cheek guide book on "How to Speak Canadian, Eh?"

This story has been covered in newspapers and on newscasts around the world -- like it's something new.

But anyone who has ever backpacked around Europe or anywhere else, for that matter, knows that Americans have been donning Canadian flag patches and pins for decades now.

Way back in 1981, I spent a year travelling through Europe and north Africa.

Even back then -- with no illegal U.S. war taking place -- most Americans I met on the road passed themselves off as Canadians.

At the beginning of my travels when I saw a Canadian flag on a backpack I assumed (silly me) that they were Canadians and would ask: "Where in Canada are you from?"

Halfway through my travels, I learned to start asking: "So are you Canadian or American?"

I actually met one American fella who walked around with a Canadian flag on his backpack but always put an American flag pin on his shirt or coat in restaurants in order to get better service, since Canadians are considered notoriously cheap tippers while Americans are deemed the best!

But it wasn't just the Americans who had, or at least wanted, a Canadian patch on their packs.

One time, after engaging in a long conversation with a charming fella on a train, I fell asleep only to wake up minus the gold watch my mother had given me for high school graduation.

Luckily for me, the guy was a thief but not a liar. He told me which beach in Spain he was planning on going to, so at the next stop I got off the train I was on, headed back in the direction I came from and found the thief relaxing on the beach he had raved about earlier.

With a chivalrous Spanish gent in tow I marched straight up to my former train companion, held out my hand and said: "Give me my watch."

He did. He also returned to me the Canadian patch he had brazenly unstitched from my pack, while I was using it as my pillow!

I asked him why on earth he wanted my patch and he said: "Few people trust Moroccans, but everybody trusts Canadians."

Ah, the power of the Maple Leaf!

I recall feeling deep pride about my country that day.

But I've never felt prouder of Canada than when I was in Afghanistan last year at this very time.

Last year, 2,000 Canadian forces troops -- working under NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) were stationed in Kabul and doing a world of good for the war-weary people of Afghanistan.

Our soldiers all wore little Canadian flags on their shoulders and you could spot them around town while on patrol waving to the children in the dusty streets.

While I was there, dozens of Canadian troops donated their days off helping the good folk of Samaritan's Purse distribute toy-filled shoe boxes to needy children in orphanages and displaced persons camps.

Our soldiers, always professional and kind, became well-known by many of the children in these orphanages over the months of their tour.

It was because of our soldiers that new wells had been dug, desks, backpacks and supplies provided for their schools, mattresses and heating oil and food provided for their orphanages.

But most of all, our troops -- 2,000 strong and the largest single contingent in Afghanistan at the time -- brought peace to the beautiful people of that devastated country.

Now there are some 650 Canadian troops there and even though amazing things are taking place, including last Tuesday's swearing in of Afghanistan's newly elected president Hamid Karzai -- thanks in large part to Canada and the U.S. -- we are not hearing much about it.

One of the people I met while over in Afghanistan was Alberta rancher and independent film-maker Garth Pritchard.

Pritchard recently returned from Afghanistan again, where he taped amazing footage of women in burkas, defying brutal husbands and threats of death by hiding Taliban members, to stand in line at polling stations and vote in free and democratic elections not just for the first time in their oppressed lives, but for the first time in their country's history.

Yes, Garth has documented the story of our troops protecting these people, so why haven't any of us seen it? Why isn't this Canadian story being shown to us?

I don't have the answer to that.

CBC won't air his stuff. Instead, watching the CBC, you'd never know we had any troops over there at all, let alone the incredible changes they have brought to Afghanistan.

For a variety of complex reasons, Garth can't get any of those tens of millions of taxpayers dollars made available to other Canadian film makers because most of that money stays in Quebec and Ontario.

So, the proudest moments of our flag go unnoticed. Instead, we must make do with stories that are decades old, about Americans disguising themselves as Canadians, rather than stories of real Canadians wearing their flag proudly and at great risk.
 
... but not the CBC ...

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2004/12/12/pf-778572.html

Canada's Afghan mission a success

By Peter Worthington, The Sun, December 12, 2004

You won't hear or see it on the CBC, but a case can be made that contrary to the expectations of "experts," Canada's recent military role in Afghanistan has been one of the great success stories of this new century.

I should add "so far," because one never knows how the future will unfold.

I mention the CBC because it has proven pretty consistent in knocking the military, tending to highlight failures and ignore successes.

In the Kandahar phase of Afghanistan, the CBC focused mainly on the four Princess Pats who were accidentally killed by a bomb from a U.S. plane -- though it rejected the only on-the-spot TV record of the incident, done by filmmaker Garth Pritchard, who was there.

The Pats left Kandahar after six months. The following year then-PM Jean Chretien committed 2,000 troops to a constabulary role in Kabul, much to the dismay of some (me included) who felt this was a sorry role for combat soldiers.

Election success

From the start, the Canadians have exceeded expectations. The initial battle group was replaced by the RCR, who were replaced by the Vandoos, who were replaced last August by the Lord Strathcona's Horse, augmented by a company of Patricias.

I was in Kabul for Afghanistan's presidential elections in October, and it could be argued that the unexpected success of the vote was largely due to the 10,000 troops of the International Security and Assistance Force (ISAF), of which the Canadians are the key element.

President Hamid Karzai won 55% of the vote (there were 17 candidates) with 42% of voters being women -- both outcomes that few had predicted. As well as a milestone towards the beginnings of democracy, it was vindication for the Canadian military and its security and its superior electronic surveillance capabilities.

It upsets Afghans to suggest, even jokingly, that perhaps foreign military should leave. People trust our army for security, and like them because they don't interfere.

Last July on CBC-TV, host Carole MacNeil interviewed two military "experts" who had a very low opinion of Canada's role in Afghanistan: David Bercuson, director of military and strategic studies at the University of Calgary, and Sunil Ram, identified as a teacher at Virginia's American Military University, and who is "affiliated with the Royal Canadian Military Institute." (He is a contributor to its private defence journal, SITREP.)

According to a transcript of the show, Ram called the Canadian mission in Afghanistan "a failure." He said: "Really nothing has changed. We've reverted back to the period of the warlords ... the drug trade has dramatically risen ... Essentially NATO forces can barely contain Kandahar and Kabul ... so what are they doing? Not a heck of a lot."

Asked if he thought this was an accurate picture, Bercuson answered: "Absolutely." He called the mission "a restricted success" whose impact on our military will take years to recover from.

Ram said we'd have been better advised to send troops to the Congo, Liberia or Sierra Leone, since there's "no strategic reason" for Canada to be in Afghanistan. All we've done is "poured hundreds of millions of dollars into that country that is ending up in the hands of knockout criminals who essentially run the country," he contended.

Bercuson's response: "I absolutely agree with that 100%." He added: "Canada doesn't have enough resources to make much of a difference ... The aim of this mission was not to safeguard the government of Afghanistan. The aim of this mission was to find a place to put 1,000 Canadians troops in the spring of 2003 and hide them so they couldn't be used in Iraq."

Speaking as "an ex-Canadian Forces officer," Ram called military equipment "substandard, and the bottom line is that we will simply not be able to send more personnel."

Bercuson added: "We need to get out. We should have gotten out now. We shouldn't have been there in the first place."

Thus say two "experts" -- neither of whom, to my knowledge, has been in Kabul. I'd argue they misread Afghanistan.

Our military has had dramatic success at ensuring peace, stability, security, and the possibility of quasi-democratic order.

Expertise suspect

Why does the CBC consider these guys experts? Bercuson has reputable credentials, and in November was awarded the prestigious 2004 Vimy Award by the Canadian Defence Associations Institute for "a significant and outstanding contribution to the defence and security of our nation and the preservation of our democratic values." He ought to visit Canadians in Kabul to see for himself.

Sunil Ram's credentials are more obscure. Those who use him as an analyst generally state that he is an ex-Canadian military officer and worked on developing peacekeeping training for the UN. The American Military University, where he teaches military history, is, according to its Web site, "a non-traditional, distance education institution that offers master, bachelor, and associate degree programs designed to meet the needs of the military community, as well as other interested scholars." In other words, AMU is an online correspondence school that gives degrees and certificates in everything from hotel and restaurant management to athletic training.

It would seem the CBC indulges in what could be called selective censorship by carefully choosing its "experts." Had Bercuson or Ram spent more time with Canadians in the field, their mutual views might be different.
 
Sadly, the press these days seem to concentrate on scandals and such when reporting news, however, the Ottawa Sun's Peter Worthington is definitely pro military and reports regularly on our troops past and present. I have written some letters to the editors on military matters that were posted in the paper in the past, and perhaps an e-mail to Peter would get the ball rolling in regards to pressure on CBC to air this footage. After all, negative comments about CBC in a national paper will probably get a response from them. Any suggestions?
 
gnplummer421 said:
Sadly, the press these days seem to concentrate on scandals and such when reporting news, however, the Ottawa Sun's Peter Worthington is definitely pro military and reports regularly on our troops past and present. I have written some letters to the editors on military matters that were posted in the paper in the past, and perhaps an e-mail to Peter would get the ball rolling in regards to pressure on CBC to air this footage. After all, negative comments about CBC in a national paper will probably get a response from them. Any suggestions?

Just a little info, Worthington is pro-military because his father was MGen Worthington, aka the Father of the Armoured Corps. I have always enjoyed his articles since he has a unique perspective that nearly all other journalists lack.

I'd say go ahead with the email, he's probably one of the few media friends that the military has.
 
To add to Inch's post.  Peter Worthington is also a former PPCLI officer with time in Korea, and also some other adventures in his earlier years as a Reporter in the Belguim Congo.

GW
 
I am going to pour some cold water here.

I found Worthington's two previous articles that he posted from Kabul to be almost complete rubbish: I have commented on this elsewhere on this site.   Far from crediting the Canadian military, the "FROG" piece made us look like completely ill-informed twits, while the 'Force Protedtion" article made us look like wimpies and also took a very unfair and quite nasty swipe at the contingent commander. The fallacy of Worthington's second piece was highlighted by the three attacks that happened in Kabul shortly after, including upon ISAF pesonnel engaged in the very "military tourism" his article appeared to advocate.

Second, he is greatly overstating the role of ISAF in achieving security and stability outside Kabul Province. ISAF's military presence in the northern provinces is so small (even with the election-period reinforcements that are now gone) that any such claim is patently wrong. The North is calm anyway, for other reasons. Indeed IMHO ISAF could do very little if it was to be otherwise. In the Kabul Province, the ISAF presence in the area outside the city area was larger than that in the North, but still quite weak: it was essentially a single infantry coy and some patrols.

It is in Kabul city where ISAF has really made its mark and has undoubtedly contributed to the security of the capitiol city and thus to the security and effectiveness of the interim govt. Here Worthington's praise is deserved. However, as important as the LdSH(RC) Recce Sqn has been to the success of this operation, it should be remembered that Canadians form only a very small component of the actual deployed ISAF forces. The majority of the 700-odd Canadians (including B Coy/1PPCLI) are there for Canadian force protection, C2 or logistic support. They all do an excellent job, as we would expect, and are IMHO of a higher calibre than the great majority of the other ISAF forces, but to make huge sweeping claims for them is really a bit disingenuous.

Whether we like it or not, the great burden of making Afghanistan secure and stable, and making the Presidential elections a success, fell on the US-led Coalition forces who were out killing and capturing the baddies before they could reach their objectives, and on the ANA and ANP who assisted in those OEF ops and who actually guarded the polling centres and counting houses. Canadians have done their part but we wuold, IMHO, be false to bask in the glow of praise that belongs to others. Cheers.
 
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