Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Harris]

Not to mention the huge cost to maintain, heat, etc..... vs a modern energy efficient building.  The Armouries in Halifax for example have had a wooden pedestrian roof around parts of it for years as pieces keep falling off the building.

 

[GunfighterSB]

Some of the problems may lie in the lack of access to the Armouries.  As cities grow, the downtown Armoury is further and further from the young Recruits.  Spending a couple hours on public transit, with the problems of no transit after a Parade night, can have detrimental affects on a Units Nominal Roll.  DND has to move some of these Armouries out of the downtown core and out to where the population is.  People really don't want to travel an hour or two through the city to parade, and then the same amount of time to return home.   Some metropolitan areas have transit services ending too early for members to get home.  Long distances in city traffic and lack of parking are also a factor. 

Yes, DND owns some marvelous historic buildings on "Prime Real Estate" in many cities, but if these locations are becoming less accessible to the members of the Units housed in them, then they are becoming derelict.  Money has to be spent to "move out to where the members are".

As a long time lurker and someone who has not posted for a dog's age, let me write on what I know. Metro Toronto is the biggest Metropolis in Canada in terms of population.  The Downtown Armouries are within walking distance of several Resident Neighborhoods and High Rises. and several Subway Stations with Light Rail and Bus Stops. The Downsview Armoury is at the Tip of the Avenue Spadina Subway line and a has an entire Base that can be used as an extention of its already large civilian parking lot.

32 BDE has Weekend QL2 Course, Co Op QL2 Courses, Summer QL2 Courses all through the year.

The Problem from my view lies in three forms: Poor advertising and poor intake issues and poor retention.

Let me discuss them in detail. Please correct me if I am way out of my lane or Orbit.
1) Poor Advertising: The best advertisement we as Soldiers have are ourselves. There are alot of citizens of Toronto (most especially the downtown core residents) that are ignorant about us (IE: they do not think we exist or that in joining the Army you are signing your life away to fight for Capitalist War monger non-Pinkos who oppress baby seals -- I am not kidding, I am speaking from personal experience).

If the Members are more vocal (in a positive way, as in "I did something incredible demanding this weekend, and it was GREAT. Let my Neighbors, Co Workers and Friends outside of the Army look at these pictures that were taken by me and my WARRIOR buddies!!!! It was difficult but man when it was finished, it was worth every effort. Go ahead squeeze my bicep!!")  then we can at least influence those around us that being in the Army (Reserve) has alot of benefits. Believe me when I say that most (Male)Cube Drones want to experience a chance to do what we do. 32 Bde needs to win the "Hearts and Minds" of Toronto.

2) Poor intake. I do not know what the average wait time is to join the Army (Reserve) but from my perception, it takes too long to recruit them, and send them to Depot for training - at least in Toronto. There are cases for very long wait time in this forum.

What we need in Toronto is a quick way to get them in the door, a quick and efficient way to do background checks and all the other tests and then, load them quickly into a BMQ course - weekend, weekdays or Summer. Perhaps we can use Private Detectives to help with the Background checks - please instruct me if I am way out to lunch. We cannot afford to have a Candidate finish all his/her tests and languish waiting for a BMQ. (or for that matter SQ, QL4s, CLCs, QL5s, QL6A/B).

3) Poor Retention. The Army(Reserve) competes with your time. For those married with Kids and a demanding Job Schedule, every Weeknight or Weekend is time spent away from your Lovely Spouse(who has a frown because he/she has not heard you snore beside him/her for two weekends in a row) and your adorable kids (who cry everytime you leave them for the weekend because they are brainwashed that they will never see you again and that you are off murdering Baby Seals). You work like a dog on your High Stress, over Taxed job that you cannot quit because, the kids need braces, shoes, education...etc that you as a Breadwinner must provide (Unless you want to incur the wrath of Child Services). Then to top it off, the Army Pay bumps you just enough into the dangerous Tax Bracket zone, to make you work harder for just the same amount of net pay.

I do not know how to solve this one. Perhaps if the Army pay can be Tax Free, or if the Govt of the Day can lower all our taxes, (The elimination of the Gouge and Screw Tax will mean a nice 5% savings on most of my family expenses) I can afford to get a less paying but less demanding job. And my wife can complain less about the weekends since I will work Crazy Hours instead of Insane ones and more have more time to be around her and the kids...

So in conclusion I think I have viable solutions for 1 and 2. Its logistics that will be the trick. How do you inspire your Soldiers (who are Students, unemployed, skill trade oriented, or Office Drone) and yourself to draw in your Non-Army peers (many of whom come from cultures and countries where Soldiers are seen as brutal thugs to be avoided - this is Toronto)? How do you solve the Intake of new recruits and send them to boot camp before a human resource hungry economy consumes all other their time?

 

[Haggis]

Absolutely nothing is getting smaller.  A lot of these too small units don't have much authorized room to grow.  If you think of  it in the sense of two 24 boxes of beer that are both half full.  If you move all the bottles to one box, you still have as much beer.  However, in reserve case there are a bunch of boxes with only a dozen to half dozen bottles each, but we keep them in thier boxes so that each brand has the glory of keeping its own mostly empty box.

An excellent analogy and quite easy for any Canadian to understand. 

 

[tank recce]

Quoth Geo, "Absolutely nothing is getting smaller.  A lot of these too small units don't have much authorized room to grow.  If you think of  it in the sense of two 24 boxes of beer that are both half full.  If you move all the bottles to one box, you still have as much beer.  However, in reserve case there are a bunch of boxes with only a dozen to half dozen bottles each, but we keep them in thier boxes so that each brand has the glory of keeping its own mostly empty box."


An excellent analogy and quite easy for any Canadian to understand.   

The issue for some of us is neither bottles of beer nor boxes, but the number of coasters upon which to rest your beer. If we have problems getting sufficent (serviceable) vehicles for an 8-car troop, then combining us and the various other jeep-jockeys into the GTA into A/B/C/D Sqn 2 RARR solves little.

We need kit. We need vehicles - real AFV / Armoured cars, not these plastic farces. We are in the process of (if we haven't already) minting crew commanders who joined after the last Cougar gunnery courses were run, and for whom the evocative cry of, "Muzzle ends clear, driver's hatch closed!" means .... nothing. Radios - my god do we need radios. A previous CO called "Recce without comms is just a road rally." Well, we do a lot of road rallies.

We need real, interesting training. Sitting in a hole on sentry for an hour used to be part of the price you paid to do the interesting part of the exercise. On more than one occasion, sitting in the hole for the entire weekend WAS the exercise.

History aside (and I'm not disagreeing that this IS a major consideration), Ptes Schmidt, Ahmed and Jablonski of the A&SHof C (guid Scots all) would benefit greatly from tactical amalgamation; it's what we do (sort of) on most of the Iron Talons. Certain other trades have problems far beyond mere undersizing.

Having said that - CSA105 shot holes in a suggestion of mine in an earlier thread, regarding the use of R011s (or WTF the MOC code is these days) to operate 3RCR's LAVs on weekend ex's, allowing their usual crews to practice & maintain light inf skills. I had to agree with his point that A&B Sqn GGHG, OntR, whomever, simply couldn't field enough bodies to float the boat. Ok, we can't do it, nor the QYR, nor... What about 2RARR? Could that organisation field sufficient troopers to make it worthwhile not only for the black hats, but the Reg infanteers? This would not only get us back into AFVs (which would help with the personnel haemorrhage), but also make us more relevant for overseas deployment (which would ALSO help the personnel haemmorhage).

*scratching head* I may have just convinced myself. This needs more thought. With more beer, in however many boxes...

 

[rifleman]

Absolutely nothing is getting smaller.  A lot of these too small units don't have much authorized room to grow.  If you think of  it in the sense of two 24 boxes of beer that are both half full.  If you move all the bottles to one box, you still have as much beer.  However, in reserve case there are a bunch of boxes with only a dozen to half dozen bottles each, but we keep them in thier boxes so that each brand has the glory of keeping its own mostly empty box.

I personaly would go to the party with both cases, therefore I have a choice of brands and the potential of having two cases of beer.

There is also absolutely no latent potential in the existence of a cap badge.  The existence or lack of a cap badge will not affect our ability to force generate additional battalions for war (should the requirement ever come).  That capability comes from our total trained and experienced soldiers.  If we gain more experienced soldeirs from a process that sees few cap badges, we will actually increase our capability.

If there is no potential in Cap Badges, then lets just get rid of them all. The issue, I raise, is that its not the number of units that are limiting the number of recruits.

Regiements are important, but cap badges are are only the deck chairs in developing the Army's future.  A proper force structure is the foundation, and that must be done right even if it upsets a few cap badges.

Why upset a few cap badges, when you can achieve your aim without upsetting anyone?

 

[aesop081]

I personaly would go to the party with both cases, therefore I have a choice of brands and the potential of having two cases of beer.

You dont have 2 seperate brands. You have 2 units offering the same thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You dont have 2 seperate brands. You have 2 units offering the same thing.

Hmm... there are those who would argue that point with you!

 

[aesop081]

Hmm... there are those who would argue that point with you!

I'm well aware of that

 

[rifleman]

You dont have 2 seperate brands. You have 2 units offering the same thing.

I'll bite 8), Guiness and Coors light are both beer, but dang I love Guiness.

 

[geo]

As a long time lurker and someone who has not posted for a dog's age, let me write on what I know. Metro Toronto is the biggest Metropolis in Canada in terms of population.  The Downtown Armouries are within walking distance of several Resident Neighborhoods and High Rises. and several Subway Stations with Light Rail and Bus Stops. The Downsview Armoury is at the Tip of the Avenue Spadina Subway line and a has an entire Base that can be used as an extention of its already large civilian parking lot.

32 BDE has Weekend QL2 Course, Co Op QL2 Courses, Summer QL2 Courses all through the year.

The Problem from my view lies in three forms: Poor advertising and poor intake issues and poor retention.

I would contend that Toronto region included, our armouries are in the wrong places.  In the GTA you have two large armouries in the centre of Toronto and not much once you go outside of GTA.

In Montreal, you have close to 10 armouries in the centre of Montreal (no super armouries) - nothing on the east or west ends of the Island of Montreal, One Service Battalion on the South shore and one infantry unit on the North shore... armouries have to be located where your recruiting basin is located - not to do so is only inviting mediocrity or failure in the long term.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Recognizing that the reserves are a 'distributed workforce' vs. a concentrated group like a Reg F unit in barracks, it would also be a good idea to connect people in other ways e.g., through online discussion groups like this. It's important to meet the communications needs of those in the 21st century to forge stronger unit loyalties, which isn't always possible using the management tools and buildings developed in the 19th.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Recognizing that the reserves are a 'distributed workforce' vs. a concentrated group like a Reg F unit in barracks, it would also be a good idea to connect people in other ways e.g., through online discussion groups like this. It's important to meet the communications needs of those in the 21st century to forge stronger unit loyalties, which isn't always possible using the management tools and buildings developed in the 19th.

I'm not sure that "unit loyalty" is a concern, if anything it is the friction against which any plan to change the organization must strive.

 

[geo]

Unit loyalty?..... that's something dinamic that will be developed - even by a new unit.

Take a look at JTF2 and CSOR... in only a short time, they have built on something new......

 

[tank recce]

Unit loyalty?..... that's something dinamic that will be developed - even by a new unit.

Take a look at JTF2 and CSOR... in only a short time, they have built on something new......

I'm not sure you can compare the members of either of these units - elite organisations formed of high-quality volunteers - with your typical weekend warrior. Plus, the morale and motivation of an individual who chose (and possibly kicked, screamed, and fought) to join a unit he REALLY wanted to join is completely different from someone being told that his unit is no more, he's now part of a generic mob with ... that OTHER unit ...

 

[geo]

Who said anything about being a member of a generic mob ???

If a new regiment is raised eg: The Rick Hillier Rangers in your area and several small understrength units are amalgamated into same said unit to form A, B, C, D anc C&S Companies - I do not see why new soldiers would feel that they are being deprived of anything.

 

[tank recce]

Isn't that the heart of the argument part of this discussion - that the EXISTING troops will get upset about losing "their" capbadge, and wearing the same badge as "that" unit? (I do agree that Norman Newguy fresh off the street won't know or understand what the fuss is about)

Right or wrong, reasonable or otherwise - it's going to get some people upset. The point I was making was that the JTF2 and CSOR types volunteered to put up a different capbadge, in the willing expectation of something new and wonderful. That ain't gonna happen with Res units amalgamating into 1st The Royal Canadian Tabarnacs.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Isn't that the heart of the argument part of this discussion - that the EXISTING troops will get upset about losing "their" capbadge, and wearing the same badge as "that" unit? (I do agree that Norman Newguy fresh off the street won't know or understand what the fuss is about)

Right or wrong, reasonable or otherwise - it's going to get some people upset. The point I was making was that the JTF2 and CSOR types volunteered to put up a different capbadge, in the willing expectation of something new and wonderful. That ain't gonna happen with Res units amalgamating into 1st The Royal Canadian Tabarnacs.

I'll think you'll find that alot of people consciously choose to join one unit or another BEFORE they head to the recruiting office for various reasons, at least that's what my troops used to tell me. We ignore this fact at our peril.

 

[ArmyRick]

Yes people may get upset. Get over it.

I am going to use the Lorne Scots as an example. When they were formed in 1936 do you think all the member ot the halton rifles said "screw this" and left? Sure some people were probably disgruntled but we MUST move forward. The Lornes went on as a newly amalgamated regiment and fought well in the second world war BTW.

A couple of things I look at with amalgamting units  Yes feelings will be hurt. Fewer LT CO and CWO. Oh well. At least we will have 300-500 man size REGIMENTS. Not companies masquarading as regiments. If you really look at the history of all the infantry units in canada that existed prior to 1900, you will notice with every one of them their is either big or small changes. Changes are part of military life.

You swore loyalty to the Queen and country and lets not forget that. With new regiments, new loyalties will be formed. If you can not be mature enough to adopt, this is a volunteer army, feel free to leave.

Lets focus on the BIG PICTURE, be relevant to today's needs.

How come we don't have machine gun companies any more? Where did the tunnelling corps go? Oh wait, times changed and we ahve to move on.

Another thought (and this going to p*ss some people off). We don't have nearly enough AFV for every reserve armoured units. How about re-roling some armoured unitd from back to infantry (Several armoured units were re-roled from infantry a long time ago). 

 

[geo]

I am going to use the Lorne Scots as an example. When they were formed in 1936 do you think all the member ot the halton rifles said "screw this" and left? Sure some people were probably disgruntled but we MUST move forward. The Lornes went on as a newly amalgamated regiment and fought well in the second world war BTW.

I remember somewhere that the Lorne Scots were scheduled to be employed as the Defence unit/coy of the 1st Cdn Army HQ for the Normandy Invasion...
Also remember reading that the Royal Montreal Reg't ended up as the Defence unit of the 1st Cdn Army HQ through to the end of the war....  :warstory:

 

[TCBF]

...  Another thought (and this going to p*ss some people off). We don't have nearly enough AFV for every reserve armoured units. How about re-roling some armoured unitd from back to infantry (Several armoured units were re-roled from infantry a long time ago). 

- When the Fourth Infantry Division became the Fourth Armoured Division, and other changes before and after then happenned, there was much friction.  Recall that 'Tank' 'MG' and 'Cavalry' units were at one time separate.  Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigades fought in WW1, and the First and Second Canadian Tank battalions were on the way to the front when the armistice was declared.  Hence, Canadian Cavalry was NOT the initial source of Canadian Armour.  Our first late 1930s designated 'tank BATTALIONS' were not based on cavalry regiments.

http://mikan3.archives.ca/pam/public_mikan/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=135378&print_version=yes&

"The origins of today's Royal Canadian Armoured Corps lie in a 1936 reorganization of the Militia which made the modest addition of two armoured car regiments and six tank battalions. The Canadian Tank School, a training facility for the Canadian Armoured Corps, was established in London, Ontario, and later moved to Camp Borden. As a result of its actions during the Second World War, the Corps became the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps (RCAC) on 2 August 1945."

Remember: The Father Of The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps was a PATRICIA!



In 1943, Second and Third Armoured Bdes 'competed' in England to see who would remain an armoured brigade.  For some reason, the army decided they had one armoured brigade too many (in fact - they did not). The Second Armoured Brigade commander fought this, was removed from an Officer's Mess under arrest and posted to a reinforcement unit 'for disposal'.  Third Armoured Brigade them became the Second Armoured Brigade.

Note: 1945, and the changes to today:

http://www.rcaca.org/En/indexLM.asp?ID=11
 
1st Armoured Car Regiment (Royal Canadian Dragoons)
2nd Armoured Regiment (Lord Strathcona's Horse [Royal Canadians])
3rd Reconnaissance Regiment (The Governor General's Horse Guards)
4th Reconnaissance Regiment (IV Princess Louise Dragoon Guards) *
5th Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's [New Brunswick] Hussars)
6th Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) 
7th Reconnaissance Regiment (17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars) ‡   
8th Reconnaissance Regiment (14th Canadian Hussars) *
9th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Dragoons)
10th Armoured Regiment (The Fort Garry Horse)
11th Armoured Regiment (Ontario Regiment)
12th Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment)
14th Armoured Regiment (The Calgary Regiment)
15th [Reserve] Armoured Regiment (6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars) ‡
16th [Reserve] Armoured Regiment (7th/11th Hussars) ¥   
17th [Reserve] Armoured Regiment (The Prince Edward Island Regiment)
18th Armoured Car Regiment (12th Manitoba Dragoons) *
19th Army Tank Regiment (The New Brunswick Regiment [Tank]) *
20th Army Tank Regiment (16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse) *
21st Armoured Regiment (The Governor General's Foot Guards) †
22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) †
23rd Army Tank Regiment (Halifax Rifles) *
24th Reconnaissance Regiment (Les Voltigeurs de Québec) †
25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment) 
26th Army Tank Regiment (Grey and Simcoe Foresters) †
27th Armoured Regiment (The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment) ¥ 
28th Armoured Regiment (The British Columbia Regiment)
29th Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment) §
30th Reconnaissance Regiment (The Essex Regiment [Tank]) € 
31st [Alberta] Reconnaissance Regiment (15th Alberta Light Horse) §
32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (The Royal Montréal Regiment) †
1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment *
A27 Canadian Reconnaissance Training Centre *
A33 Canadian Armoured Corps Training Centre * 


* Later to the Supplementary Order of Battle (inactive) or disbanded
† Later reverted to infantry
‡ - § - ¥ Later amalgamated
 Later converted to field engineers
€ Later renamed


Notes:

1. The designation 13th was not used during the war years. In a post-war reorganization, that number was transiently assigned to the British Columbia Regiment.

2. Army Tank Regiments were designed to work with infantry and had a smaller establishment. By 1944, all had been converted to armoured regiments or broken up to provide reinforcements.