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Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
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My thing is how i keep hearing rumours of the highland regiments being amalgamated into one or two big regiments....Now THAT would totally suck the big c*#k because then one regt's traditions/history would be gone in a flash & that would be un-Canadian. I personally love being in a highland regiment for the distiction & you can't beat marching with a pipe band & i'm sure many of you out there agree!!!

Carry On!  :cdn:
 
swanita said:
My thing is how i keep hearing rumours of the highland regiments being amalgamated into one or two big regiments....Now THAT would totally suck the big c*#k because then one regt's traditions/history would be gone in a flash & that would be un-Canadian. !!

Carry On!   :cdn:

LOL!  I can't think of anything more Canadian, to be honest, then trashing our own traditions.  Trashing traditions is a Canadian tradition.

Flush out your head gear, troop, the British just amalgamated their highland regiments.  Chicken Little we don't need on this board.
 
swanita said:
My thing is how i keep hearing rumours of the highland regiments being amalgamated into one or two big regiments....Now THAT would totally suck the big c*#k because then one regt's traditions/history would be gone in a flash & that would be un-Canadian. I personally love being in a highland regiment for the distiction & you can't beat marching with a pipe band & i'm sure many of you out there agree!!!

Carry On!   :cdn:

What's a matter Swanita you don't want to be a member of the GREATER METROPOLITAN (INCLUDING 905 BELT) TORONTO HIGHLANDERS (48TH, TORONTO & LORNE SCOTTISH)  ;D

Don't laugh when I was in, it was a common topic in the Sgt's Mess re amalgamating with the cross town competition. Not saying anyone at FYA was for it but the topic did come up.
 
What's a matter Swanita you don't want to be a member of the GREATER METROPOLITAN (INCLUDING 905 BELT) TORONTO HIGHLANDERS (48TH, TORONTO & LORNE SCOTTISH) 

Don't laugh when I was in, it was a common topic in the Sgt's Mess re amalgamating with the cross town competition. Not saying anyone at FYA was for it but the topic did come up.

Funny, i nearly fell off my chair when i read that!! As long as we can each wear our respective kilts, might not be that bad  ::)
 
If they do that, they had better amalgamate ALL reserve units not just the ones with kilts and balmorals...

Another note, units like the Argyls, Lornes and the 48th are larger units than the QOR, RR of C and RHLI.
 
Yeah.. i'm not looking for a fight
NOR to defend Royal regt of Canada...

But they are one of the biggest in Toronto...  The Svc Bn being the biggest  ::)

I believe the royals have over 300 troops... 

48th is like 250
TSR was 200 in sept.. i think 230 now...
 
I've never understood the Reserves staunch refusal for amalgamation of units.  We have this huge, bloated, 5 Division structure spread across Canada centred on Battalions and Regiments that are at worst, platoon sized, and at best, perhaps two companies.  Most of the units have a fairly limited history centred on WWI and WWII and most draw their lineage from other units that they merged with or amalgamated with years ago.  Until this issue is addressed, I can't see the Reserves moving forward.  If the UK can do it with units with 100s of years of real history fighting for the Empire, can't we bring our Reserve Force into the 21st century?

Stepping off my soapbox.
 
Gunner said:
Most of the units have a fairly limited history centred on WWI and WWII and most draw their lineage from other units that they merged with or amalgamated with years ago.  Until this issue is addressed, I can't see the Reserves moving forward.

Two world wars represents "limited history"?  Most  units have reached or passed their centennial years, we still have 5 to go in Calgary.

Most units draw their lineage from - well, their own unit.  There was a major reorg in the early 1920s and some renaming, but as far as amalgamations go, you can see the timeline at my site at www.canadiansoldiers.com - the Regiments have been rather stable for the last 50 years.  Go into ORDERS OF BATTLE and scroll down the left til you come to the scarlet links area for infantry regiments.  The last amalgamations were in 1955 or so.  "Most" units retain the names they had in the 1920s reorg.

What benefit would there be to amalgamation?  Do you think that the individual subunits would get any bigger just because they were renamed?  Or that the units would operate any more closely?  You can accomplish that without a name change.
 
The UK did, with some very famous regiments of Scotland,   Sad event but a reflection of a modern army.

It would be nice to amalgamate them all under the one unit, call them the 48th Highlanders and take it from there

makes sense.

Falcon in the capbadge....

Davidson tartan.....

Already a whack of battle honors....

really neat motto...in Gaelic even...

dileas

tess

(as for the tattoo and ring, you will have to foot the bill for that yourselves)

 
What then is the solution to understrength reserve battalions ? I would think the alternative would be to deactivate understrength units.
 
tomahawk6 said:
What then is the solution to understrength reserve battalions ? I would think the alternative would be to deactivate understrength units.

That wouldn't make any sense: EVERY reserve unit is understrength, that would simply eliminate the reserve altogether, and since the Militia is the main connection for the Canadian Forces to a lot of communities, that would not work in anyone's interest.  The solution that has been working has been to put a lot of emphasis on pooling resources of smaller units wherever possible to make the training more effective.  That seems to be the best way to go at this time.
 
Solution? i am saying merge ALL reserve units (not just highland ones). You could easily make a battalion by merging every 3-4 regiments. You would also keep the unit's histories. There are very few units today that are exactly as they were when they stood up in the 1800s. We have seen amalgamations before and guess what? The army reserve is still here.

 
I'm sorry I didnt make myself clear. A battalion with only 40 people is a waste of resources. If a battalion cant stay at 50% it doesnt need to be kept on the rolls.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
What benefit would there be to amalgamation?   Do you think that the individual subunits would get any bigger just because they were renamed?   Or that the units would operate any more closely?   You can accomplish that without a name change.

The names and traditions aren't the problem, its the regimental structure - which forces us into absurd formations - that is starving the reserves.

We use the terms "brigade", "regiment", and "battalion" to describe rather miniscule non-capable formations. The administrative and command structures that go with these formations is a serious detriment to the efficiency and capability of the units. Also, keeping us as independent regiments and battalions, under our own brigades, isolates us from the Regular Army in a number of key issues - updated training, collaboration and learning, working within the bigger picture, kit issue, etc.

Concepts like Regimental Tradition are holding us to a bloated, ineffective, unrealistic structure. 250 soldiers may be a "regiment" but it sure isn't an effective battalion, and in reality most units probably can't even field a real company. Since we probably can't get much bigger, we might as well run ourselves realistically.

I suggest (as many others have) turning the reserve regiments into Companies within a territorial - probably provincial - Battalion. So, for BC,  it would be  "A Company (Seaforth Highlanders of Canada)", "B Company (Royal Westminster Regiment)", "C Company (Cdn Scottish Regiment)", and "D Company (Rocky Mountain Rangers) of the "British Columbia Battalion". The associated artillery, engineer, intelligence, and service units would all be combined into this BC formation to form "The British Columbia Battle Group" or Combat Team, or Task Force.

This is very similar to what we do on the major ex's and concentrations anyway (except its rare for BC to field 4 Inf Companies, we had 2 on the last concentration). So why not run ourselves like we actually are? There's no need to change the armouries or the regimental traditions, but the names and structures of the units should fit reality, and not a WW3 Mobilization pipedream. Ditch the Lieutenant Colonels, the Adj's, the RSM's, the BOR, the Brigade apparatus, and make ourselves lean.

Thus, we train and run ourselves as what we are. Training would be organized by Battalion - since a company wouldn't have the resources to plan a major ex - and would be able to field realistic combined arms training formations, since one HQ would directly plan and arrange all provincial training.

Above this, the reserve Battle Groups would be run from Area HQ. Possibly as an Area Reserve Brigade, alongside the Regular Brigades. However, I'd be eager to see the reserve units tied as closely into the Regular Force structure as possible, since I think this would lead to all sorts of benefits for the reserves in training, administration, exercises, doctrine, etc. I know that being in Vancouver, we feel very isolated from the rest of the Army.

The Brits run their reserves this way - each reserve inf battalion is a direct part of the a regular regiment. I don't think the PPCLI, RCR, or R22R wants the reserves tied to them like that, but its something worth considering.

One model that has interested me, but I don't know enough about it, is the Reserve MP Companies, who are run as a subunit of their Reg F formation. Reserve MP's can go on all of the ex's that the Reg's do and can get many of the same taskings. Now, the other branches are too large for this direct model, but its something to think of. Imagine if every infantry soldier in LFWA had the chance to go on every ex held by the PPCLI?

 
Enfield's post hit on one of the themes of LFRR Phase II, which from the briefing notes I saw seemed to imply the folding of units into subunits of larger Brigade wide formations. For 31 CBG, there would be a 31 Infantry Bn, 31 Armoured Regt, 31 Artillery Regt, 31 SVC BN to join the existing 31 CER and a small set of "new capabilities" (31 NBCD Coy, etc.). LFCA would be able to have one Regular Brigade and 3 light Reserve Brigades which could produce one Mechanized battle group and 3 Light battle groups.

The upside to all this would be the elimination of most of the 15 LCols, RSMs etc. that the current slate of 15 reserve units carry. The downside is the accumulated histories and traditions would be heavily diluted (the various companies, squadrons and batteries might keep historic names, but not too much else.) Running large units by "remote control" would also be challenging, given it can take 4 hr to drive from Windsor to St Catherines, but modern communications make it easier than ever, and historically, units have been separated from parent formations for days, weeks and even months communicating by pen and ink means....

Although there would be horrible outrage if this ever happened, in about 5 years, the bulk of the rank and file would consist of soldiers who have never known anything else but being in, for example, "A" Coy 31 Bn (Essex and Kent Coy) and life would go on.
 
Michael, Enfield and a_majoor have both hit on points that, for the most part I agree with.

Two world wars represents "limited history"?   Most   units have reached or passed their centennial years, we still have 5 to go in Calgary.

Yes, it is "limited history".   Most units have been bumbling around for decades with inefficient and outdated organizations waiting to fight WWII again.  

Most units draw their lineage from - well, their own unit.  There was a major reorg in the early 1920s and some renaming, but as far as amalgamations go, you can see the timeline at my site at www.canadiansoldiers.com - the Regiments have been rather stable for the last 50 years.  Go into ORDERS OF BATTLE and scroll down the left til you come to the scarlet links area for infantry regiments.  The last amalgamations were in 1955 or so.  "Most" units retain the names they had in the 1920s reorg.

See my comments above.   The pot of money and resources is limited and the army needs to streamline and rationalize the Reserve structure.   The idea that we need 50 odd infantry battalions, etc, to meet Canadian defence aims is questionable.   I'm not adverse to a_Majoor's suggest of keeping battalion or regimental history alive at the company level.   41 CBG isn't that bad as it only has two understrength battalions (one in Calgary and one in Edmonton).   38 CBG has 5 scattered across Sk, Mb and northwest Ontario and all of them are extremely understrength.   The two Bns in Sk could easily be amalgamated into 1 Regiment of Saskatchewan Rifles.   The two battalions in Winnipeg could easily amalgamate into the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. 1 remaining bn in Thunder Bay could be a sub-unit of the RWpgR.  

What benefit would there be to amalgamation?  Do you think that the individual subunits would get any bigger just because they were renamed?  Or that the units would operate any more closely?  You can accomplish that without a name change.

Units could work closer now but for some reason, personality or vanity gets in their way. Never understood was it so difficult to understand that an exercise is much better when you have full coys or a couple of coys exercising againsts one another.   A_Majoor makes all the good points about doing away with the redundant bureaucracy (COs, RSMs, Adjts, Ops O, etc, etc).   Get the money and resources where it is supposed to be, on the armoury floor, not in the offices.

I should point out (before all the Reserve bashers climb aboard), this isn't a slight towards the Reserves.   In a perfect world, the Reserves would be funded and resourced adequately, proper support from the Regular force, increased opportunities to work with the Regs, etc.   Obviously they can't be the same because its a part time organization but they should be able to provide a collective capability towards Canada's foreign policy.   Its not there right now and its not economically achievable under the current structure.  
 
Gunner said:
I've never understood the Reserves staunch refusal for amalgamation of units.   We have this huge, bloated, 5 Division structure spread across Canada centred on Battalions and Regiments that are at worst, platoon sized, and at best, perhaps two companies.   Most of the units have a fairly limited history centred on WWI and WWII and most draw their lineage from other units that they merged with or amalgamated with years ago.   Until this issue is addressed, I can't see the Reserves moving forward.   If the UK can do it with units with 100s of years of real history fighting for the Empire, can't we bring our Reserve Force into the 21st century?

Stepping off my soapbox.

I agree.

I'm a proponent of the "clean sweep" approach.  Our Reserve Regiments are "limited" - they mainly look back to WWI (not really as "theirs", just as numbered CEF battalions) and WWII.  Sure, reservists have individually augmented tours for the last 20 years, but these are exactly that, individual, and not regimental.

The current Reserve setup of Brigade HQ's with understrength units is built around the idea of mobilization - we are 50 years behind on this one.  I remember reading an article by LtCol (then Major) Dan Drew about readiness issues - he went over the time to build enough M1 Abrams tanks to kit out Reserve units in the case of mobilization as an example of how asinine the assumption for mobilization is and I imagine the same could be said about training times, equipping, expansion, etc for all other units and formation HQs.  I feel that we must move away from the notion of mobilization built around "Total War" mobilizing of the populace and national industry.  If this does occur, we can raise/create new units since this is what will happen anyways - having the Regiment "exist" before-hand makes no difference.

Instead, we should focus our reserves on a real structure to support the regulars in the "come as you are" wars and conflicts that we've been constantly engaged in for the last few decades.  I see "mobilization" and the units of the Army structured into 5 operational echelons, and the Reserves having a real role and place in some of these groupings:

Echelon I) Special Operations Units and Rapid Reaction Forces (either Air Mobile or afloat in a Amphibious Role) - Required to be able to project globally within days and to remain in place to establish conditions for heavier follow-on-forces.

Echelon II) Regular Force Units and Formations - These are the full-time professional soldiers who must be capable being sustained on operations overseas - usually heavier then Echelon I forces (in our case, I see the "Cavalry" format as ideal for now).  Current doctrine mandates two Battlegroups with surge capability for a Brigade.  Echelon II forces are ROTO O and next few rotations.

Echelon III) Voluntary Augmention - This is where we sit now.  This is limited use of Reservists in a strictly voluntary arrangement to help cover off on missions in mature theaters.  This can involve individual augmentees to Regular Force Units or the formation of Reserve sub-sub units or sub-units within Regular Units (as with the Composite Reserve units and D&S Platoons).   Reserve Battalions are required to be able to form a Platoon at all times as an Echelon III force (even if it is only a staff check).

Echelon IV) Reserve Activation - This is where the Americans sit now.  Entire Reserve Units and Formations are called up, given workup training, and deployed.  Obviously, quite disruptive, but it is something the Reserves should be able to do in a wartime scenario that does not call for complete national mobilization.

Echelon V) These are forces created from scratch in a National Mobilization scheme.  They can exist on paper at zero strength until the balloon goes up and the floodgates are opened for recruits.  These scratch units are filled out by soldiers from the other 4 echelons who have returned from operational duty.

The reserve units have strengths in that they are locally based and the members are usually quite familiar with eachother - if the CF could find a way to deal with attrition, job security, and service requirements (important and completely seperate issues that we've discussed lately), you would have a real pool of good, professional soldiers to rely on for Echelon III and IV tasks.

As I've said, I advocate the clean sweep approach:

-  With regards to formations, all 10 Reserve Brigades are downgraded to Reserve Battalions.  This cuts a top-heavy command structure out and streamlines C2 - we currently have more Reserve Brigade and Battalion HQs then Regular, but fewer reserve soldiers.  This means that planning is done at the unit level - for example, every month or two , units in BC will train as a unit, rather then as 6 or 7 "Regiments" that send a platoon or two out to do some willy nilly training on their own.

-  The Reserve Battalions are to be given a TO&E and are to organize as Echelon IV forces.  They should be able to train as a unit in peacetime and, if the call goes out, deploy as a unit if Echelon IV forces are required.  They will have their own DFS (Armour, organized like a USMC CAAT), Pioneers (Engineers), Mortar (Arty) and Admin and Support (CS/CSS) sub units as well as having 2 or 3 rifle companies.

-  How these Battalions are organized within the larger structure is up for debate.  We could have a hybrid Reg/Res Brigade Headquarters with some Reserve units formed as Brigade-level units (Engineers, Arty, CS/CSS).  One per area would give the Reserves roughly 3 Reg Force Brigades and 3 Reserve Brigades.  Essentially a 2 Division force.

-  Now this is where I'm going to be tagged as the Heretic.  I feel that each Reserve Battalion (former CBG) should be under 1 Regiment.  It should share a set of colours, be under the same capbadge, and be reflective of a Regional Identity (this is a common strength of some Regimental Systems like Britain and Germany - we cannot fit it into our Reg Force, but our Reserves can do it).  For example within LFWA, there would be The British Columbia Rifles (BCR is already taken), the Alberta Regiment, and the Western Regiment (or Prairie Regiment).  All the old reserve units, in an effort to prevent bickering about who stays and who goes, should be relegated to Echelon V units - the Reserve Battalions will be new units that represent Echelon IV and V units and make their own history as Canada's "Ready Reserve" of actively serving reservists.

Anyways, just some thoughts (some old, some new).

Enjoy and flame away.

Infanteer

 
"remaining bn in Thunder Bay could be a sub-unit of the RWpgR."

Every time we let people play with the system, they only make it worse.  Who, in Thunder Bay, is going to join a regiment with the name of a city 750 km away?  They might as well join the Toronto Scottish.

We need more units - not less.  More local traditions - not less.

Small units they can be, to keep alive the military culture in a town or small city.

This costs nothing - peanuts.  The extra accoutrements and so on?  Peanuts.  The Colonels pay?  Also peanuts, but bust him to Major if you wan't.

While we are at it, lets bring back those reserve units that we closed out of the small towns, and put some other units in the large cities that have sprung up in various places.
 
Every time we let people play with the system, they only make it worse.  Who, in Thunder Bay, is going to join a regiment with the name of a city 750 km away?  They might as well join the Toronto Scottish.

And every year we don't do something with an archaic system, its money and resources that aren't be used effectively.  People join to be a member of the infantry and usually know very little about the units heritage and history.  As I mentioned, the sub-unit would retain the name.  You can call the battalion whatever you want, its just a name.

We need more units - not less.  More local traditions - not less.

Law of diminishing returns....

Small units they can be, to keep alive the military culture in a town or small city.

Whether a platoon, company or battalion is located in a town, I would hazard to guess that most people have no idea what the unit is - its all army.

This costs nothing - peanuts.  The extra accoutrements and so on?  Peanuts.  The Colonels pay?  Also peanuts, but bust him to Major if you wan't.

Actually, it isn't peanuts, its a lot of money being wasted.  It is also alot of officers and NCMs being pushed by the system to be the CO or RSM when they don't have the experience to be a platoon commander much less a company commander.

While we are at it, lets bring back those reserve units that we closed out of the small towns, and put some other units in the large cities that have sprung up in various places.

Most of those units were closed down for a reason.  You do bring up a good point about units not springing up in places that have grown since WWII.  Penticton and Prince George are two good examples out in British Columbia without military presence.

Cheers
 
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