Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[dglad]

To put it bluntly--and as I've said on here before--the current distribution of Res F units is nonsensical.  For example:

-Thunder Bay, ON (where I'm from), with a population of 120K, has 5 Res F units (2 x Army, 1 x Health Svcs Sp, 1 x Comm Res, 1 x Naval Res)
-Toronto, ON, with a population of about 4 million, has 15 Res F units (can't remember the exact breakdown)

So, for a population more than 30 times the size, Toronto only has 3 times the number of Res units.  This is repeated across the country.  We have enormous difficulty building units in Thunder Bay to any sort of decent size, while other areas that are growing explosively--such as Mississauga or suburban parts of Vancouver--have no Res F units at all.  The distribution of Res F units in Canada is a remnant of a by-gone era, when the demographic patterns and trends were completely different, and the global security environment made very different demands on Canada's military.

Yes, there are many proud unit histories to uphold, but we're doing so at the expense of a viable Res F for today.  Realistically, we should completely overhaul the Res F, so that units are located in some manner coordinated with the reality of contemporary demographics.  There should be units in suburban Toronto and Vancouver; there should also be units, or elements of units, in places like Swift Current, Sask and maybe even Fort McMurray, Alta, where untapped and growing pools of person-power exist.  The status quo is unsustainable, and that's unfortunate--but the truth often is unfortunate.  What we need to do is find ways to move past politics, embody our proud heritage of military accomplishment and, at the same time, move forward in the context of a restructured Res F that can fit Canada's modern security needs.  It can be done...one only has to look at the recent UK Army restructuring to see how so.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

The same trend occurring in the United States for decades doesnt act any different here....

huge urban sprawls like Toronto, which costs a crapload to live in, is decently filled with alot of 'rich people' or 'upper class' and for the MOST PART, the military is mainly comprised of lower-middle class working types ( excluding the officers ).So far, ive yet to meet anybody in the infantry thats been out of the ordinary wealthy. I have a 2 story mansion from the early 1900s where I live, and for as much as it costs and to heat in the winter, my family might be able to afford a small two bedroom house in toronto.

I should also point out that the majority of the military comes from the atlantic provinces.I don't remember the exact number but i think its like 60% or something.... and alot of the remainder coming out of the western provinces.Thats just what ive been told/heard anyway, and so far that sounds about right.

Maybe its just lack of interest, or lack of information, who knows....

regardless, I hope this new base that Martin wants goes right smack dab in the middle of Ontario or BC =p

 

[mo-litia]

To put it bluntly--and as I've said on here before--the current distribution of Res F units is nonsensical.   For example:

The distribution of Res F units in Canada is a remnant of a by-gone era, when the demographic patterns and trends were completely different, and the global security environment made very different demands on Canada's military.

Realistically, we should completely overhaul the Res F, so that units are located in some manner coordinated with the reality of contemporary demographics.   There should be units in suburban Toronto and Vancouver; there should also be units, or elements of units, in places like Swift Current, Sask and maybe even Fort McMurray, Alta, where untapped and growing pools of person-power exist.   The status quo is unsustainable,

Excellent thoughts on this topic. As a former rural Albertan, I know of many people from my hometown who have expressed a strong interest in the PRes but are not able to commute to a major centre to train.

I was amazed when I found out that my regiment used to maintain one or two companies in small towns but that they were disbanded decades ago, not due to lack of manpower or interest; but rather in the interests of saving money at budget time.

End result; angry former rural revreservists along with rural citizens who are now unable to join the militia, the alialienation rural people who have lost their most visible link to the military other than the Legion, and the sad site of former armouries lapsing into disuse.

 

[Blunt Object]

"The regs are the first to deploy, and the first line of defense.  They also have high casualites.  Reserve units are there to a) replace reg units and b) the cadre to train new people.  Obviously a reservist is less expericenced than a reg of the same rank, but it takes a lot less time to get a reservist up to speed than to train entirerly new people."

In response to "ender" what if you have a reservist and a reg forces soldier fresh out of boot are either really prepared to be called upon to go into combat?

What about a Mcpl or a Sgt in a Reserve unit whos never seen cobat? Whould the Higher rank prehaps know more about the profession of arms that a Pvt or Cpl in a  reg force unit?

Any soldier who has seen combat will obviously know a few"combat tricks" or more about survival in the battlefield than a soldier who hasn't. But if someones been practacing in the reserves for 6 or 7 years and another person has only been in the regs 6 months the guy thats been practicing longer will probally be more prepared to go into combat which is what really matters

 

[Meridian]

You remind me of the situation in blackhawk down (I know, I know, its the movies) where the Sgt tells his troops he's never fired at anyone before, but he's leading them anyway.... 

Is it necessary that you out-experience someone to lead? And if so, does that not pretty much fly in the face of the Jr. Officer ranks?

 

[Murdock]

As I have served with both reg force and reserveists I must say that the reserve unit that I served with (the RHLI) are as ready to go into combat as some of the people that I've seen in the reg's.The men and women take there training seriously and worked just as hard if not harder then most.I am very proud of them and some of them are still serving over sea's as peace keepers and in other role's as well.I defenately think that they should be trained as there reg force counter parts and used the same way.They are a vital and important part of our military stucture and should get the respect they deserve and earn everyday.And I know that if they are ever called upon to do there job that they would do so with houner and unit pride and do us and all Canadian's proud.That's all I have to say about that(and that's probebly enough...lol).

 

[pbi]

huge urban sprawls like Toronto, which costs a crapload to live in, is decently filled with alot of 'rich people' or 'upper class' and for the MOST PART, the military is mainly comprised of lower-middle class working types ( excluding the officers ).So far, ive yet to meet anybody in the infantry thats been out of the ordinary wealthy. I have a 2 story mansion from the early 1900s where I live, and for as much as it costs and to heat in the winter, my family might be able to afford a small two bedroom house in toronto.

I should also point out that the majority of the military comes from the atlantic provinces.I don't remember the exact number but i think its like 60% or something.... and alot of the remainder coming out of the western provinces.Thats just what ive been told/heard anyway, and so far that sounds about right.

I disagree with you on these assertions.I think you are making them from a very limited perspective.

First off, I think that your estimate is actually referring to the RegF, but even then IMHO it is wrong. Canada's military, Reg and Res, is overwhelmingly a middle class operation. IMHO the "upper class" (to the extent that we even have one...) abandoned military service as a vocation back in the early days of the last century. The old stereotype that the Army (esp the Inf...) is full of a bunch of  po' boys  (or "bys") from "down 'ome" is IMHO wrong. In my experience, while the Atlantic Provinces do contribute a large proportion of the recruits, our soldiers come from all over. Since over 80% of Canadians live in cities, it probably follows that that is where our RegF recruits mostly come from. As for social differences between officers and soldiers, I think you are also exaggerating that too. This is not the British Army: most officers and soldiers IMHO come from very clos together in the social spectrum.

Second, even if we accept that your statement might apply somewhat to the RegF, IMHO it has nothing to do with the Res, which is what this thread is talking about. How could it be true that "the majority of the military comes from the atlantic provinces", if eight of the ten Res CBGs are not in Atlantic Canada? You will find that what I said above about the RegF is even more true about the Res: in my experience there is no clear social or economic difference (or even educational difference) between Officers and ORs in the Res.

Cheers.

 

[dglad]

You remind me of the situation in blackhawk down (I know, I know, its the movies) where the Sgt tells his troops he's never fired at anyone before, but he's leading them anyway....  

Is it necessary that you out-experience someone to lead? And if so, does that not pretty much fly in the face of the Jr. Officer ranks?

This would also fly in the face of practical experience.  I would suggest that more experience IN GENERAL equals better performance, but like all things human, there are as many variations on this particular theme as there are people.  History is rife with examples of Ptes (or their historical equivalents--call them legionnaires, hoplites, whatever) rising to the occasion when more experienced leaders have fallen or failed.  And I've met a well-decorated WW2 vet who was a complete a**hole who probably couldn't be trusted to lead Boy Scouts on a nature hike.  This also brings in the fact that personal experience and accomplishment, and the ability to lead, are also very different things.  Again, some individuals who live, breathe and eat things military, read Soldier of Fortune cover to cover, and absolutely excel in all the soldierly skills, make absolutely horrible leaders.  And while it's important for a leader to be a good soldier, true leadership is about a whole range of "softer" skills, focused around things like empathy, communications, commitment to a duty of care, honesty, moral courage...the list goes on.

Anyone can lead, but by no means can everyone can lead well.

 

[bgreen]

One thing that strikes me about many of the threads we discuss is not only the availability of soldiers to attend training and the distribution of units but how we can bring the two together and also build support on a Canada wide basis for our CF.

As pbi mentioned in another thread, when you study the distribution of units across Canada both Reg and Reserve there are huge gaps geographically.  I believe we are doing a better job of reaching our northern regions with the Rangers and involving local people in these units that improve the CF profile in this remote region.  I believe we are somewhat short on a reg force presence in these areas and would offer that basing some senior NCOs to support these units would also provide a basis for a sovereignty and emergency response force if a unit could not be stationed across this area.
 
Likewise I think there are areas across the southern part of our country where 80% of the population lives that could do with a reserve presence whether it be militia, naval, air, comms or medical reserve units.  I also think that population size of a community should be coupled with a look at the geographical space in determining where some new units might go.

Both dglad and pbi have mentioned Swift Current, SK as a case in point.  It is nearly 200 km from a reserve unit yet at one time was the home of the 14th Hussars (Free and Fearless) and 8th Recce.  It is a small city of about 15 000 with an equally large trading area.  The city administration has offered to rent the armoury to the CF for about 150.00$/month.  The educational administrators, MPs and MLAs as well as the local Chamber of Commerce all made presentations to the LFRR town hall meetings in the hopes of attracting a permanent reserve presence to the city. 

I tend to agree with pbi that the CF is not made of any economic class of individuals but I can tell you in smaller communities the reserve presence would be one of the few part-time activities available and IMHO you could draw a number of individuals of many skilled backgrounds from these small communities like mechanics, doctors, lawyers and padres in addition to whatever soldiers you needed to form the specific role within the unit.

I always enjoy travelling through northern Montana and seeing the armoury in nearly every small town greater than 500.  I think you win the support of local people when they know their own hometown men and women are involved in defending their country.  And if we did this right in Canada perhaps we could attract more of the different cultural groups that are located in small and large centres if they had a community reserve unit.

At the risk of someone thinking of the millions of $ this would cost in facilities I would offer that most schools are now looking at what is called Community Plus initiatives where schools are used by the community.  Why not a reserve presence here for minimal dollars?

All said I was very disappointed that LFRR has not mentioned nor addressed these issues as I was led to believe in their initial iteration that this would be done.  Regardless if we ever hope to martial the support of Canadians and their leaders we had better be in their location where they live and work. 

BG

 

[pbi]

Well said bgreen. In my opinion, LFRR didn't measure up to its publicity. Cheers.

 

[Infanteer]

Well said Mr Green.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/19720.0.html

Here is a good thread on a failed effort to bring a reserve unit to Prince George, a community of about 100,000 people with zero CF representation....

 

[Michael Dorosh]

bgreen, I think the success of rural reserve units may have been very much tied to the social component of those units.  I wonder if today's training realities would allow such small units to flourish?  I suspect they would - my dad was a member of the 64th (Yorkton) Field Battery, RCA - the unit still exists.  His subunit in 1957 was Echo Troop, who paraded in Canora - a tiny little town 45 minutes or so from Yorkton.  They met in the basement of the Legion IIRC and drilled once a week.  in the summer, they went to gun camp in Shilo, he also took the Tech Able course.    The subunit is long gone.

In the "old days", I think the attraction was the uniform, and the social events.  The Calgary Highlanders Ball was one of the big events on the city's social calendar.  It must have been the same way in smaller communities, perhaps even moreso.  Society, unfortuantely, seems to have outgrown the military and love of pomp and circumstance.  After Vietnam, and now Iraq, I think there is a new fear of things military; our soldiers are actually in Afghanistan not wearing (gasp) blue berets.  Just when we reach the point where we need to sell the idea of a large military even more, I think the public at large may be the least receptive.

 

[goodform]

I think the idea of more rural units is a good one. I think this because I come from rural SK and lived 1 1/2 hours from my closest reserve unit (Saskatoon or Prince Albert, A and B Coy NSaskR, respectively), and the next closest units were the "Yorkton Battery" and the all the untis in Regina, both 2 hours away. Now this left quite a way for me or anyone who lived where I did to go if I were to parade with a unit, yet there is a town, now a city, of 5000 people (Humboldt) 25 minutes away. To the best of my knowledge Humboldt has never hosted any reserve unit, but being how large it is and being nearly smack in the middle of the majority of of reserve units in SK, all over an hour away, should it not be quite feasible to have at least a platoon/troop based there?
Another thing that is interesting to me is that between Seaforth, Bessborough, and BCR armoury and Abbotsford, there really isn't much of a reserve option except New Westminster. Could not a place the size of Richmond or Surrey support another Coy/Sqn/Bty, even with Richmond having the Svc Btn? What about something in the Burquitlam area? I am new to the Lower Mainland so please excuse me if I've missed something/unit.

P.S. for the rumor mill, this is totally without support, but I've heard something about an engineer troop being set up in Cranbrook?

 

[Infanteer]

Surrey is covered by The Royal Westminster Regiment, which parades in New Westminster and Langley/Aldergrove (so, Surrey is basically between the two).  The North Shore is covered by the Engineers.  I think it is the Burnaby/PoCo area that is in need of a reserve presence in the city.

 

[McG]

New start-up rural units would be excellent candidates for weekend parading.

That's still irrelevant for people who work swing shifts, split shifts and other irregular schedules. If you work evenings, then days, with 4 on and 3 off, your schedule is going to be all over the place, so it is not a matter of either evenings or weekends. No way around it in some cases; so do you encourage a guy who is rock solid in job knowledge to quit in such a case, or just accept that he might only parade twice a month?

Maybe the solution here is to find a means of greater integration of the supplementary reserve with the primary reserve (or a new intermediate tier).  Members in this category would still belong to a unit, but they would not have the same parading requirements (they may even have an annual ceiling of training/administrative day similar to the CIC).  These pseudo-supplementary reservists would be permitted to participate in DOMOPS or as staff for course taught over the summer without these days counting against their total allowed.  This might accommodate members that are only able to make summer concentration exercises, or who can only attend a handful of evenings & weekends a year.

The members would get to remain in the reserve, with no loss of seniority, and train according to their schedule.  The trade-off would be that TIR would not count toward promotion for pseudo-supplementary reservists and priority for student positions on courses would always go to the regular paraders.

 

[ArmyRick]

As far as the reserves go, I happen to agree with pbi on some issues. We have far too many company sized regiments in the infantry reserves. I think amalgamating regiments together to form larger regiments is a better idea.
I would also reccomen any time an amalgamation takes place that the new regiment takes on the identity of all the old regiments that formed it. We have been through this before. My regiment was formed as it is today by combining three battle proven regiments in 1936.
Change, don't fear it, embrace it and make the best of it...

 

[Kirkhill]

Good advice Rick, might take it myself.

 

[pbi]

As far as the reserves go, I happen to agree with pbi on some issues. We have far too many company sized regiments in the infantry reserves. I think amalgamating regiments together to form larger regiments is a better idea.
I would also reccomen any time an amalgamation takes place that the new regiment takes on the identity of all the old regiments that formed it. We have been through this before. My regiment was formed as it is today by combining three battle proven regiments in 1936.
Change, don't fear it, embrace it and make the best of it...

Actually, quite a number of Res regts are the products of  various amalgamations, most of which took place prior to WWII: that is sometmes conveniently forgotten.  IMHO, the current stigma attached to amalgamation in the last few decades is a result of the belief by some in the Res community that it is an evil plot by the RegF to destroy the Militia, and that if only we can make everything just like it was 50 years ago everything would be fine. This has not been helped by some of the ham-fisted, poorly thought ideas (and barely concealed hostility...) that has from time to time emanated toward the Res from the Reg side. Cheers.

 

[JBC]

Hi there, I am a reg force officer in training, I previously served as a reserve infantry platoon commander in Nova Scotia and here are some thoughts I never passed on before I departed. I believe that in order to operate more efficiently, make the best use of finances and actually train as fieldable, cohesive, STANDARDIZED Battaltion sized units, reserve infantry regiments in Nova Scotia should amalgamate to form one command.   I understand that the higher ups governing the LFRR programme entertained this idea much to the revulsion of reserve members. The disgust was justifiable on certain levels; unbreakable ties to the past, and pride in being distinct: all very important. However, I believe you can still honour the past even if it is under new colors. Would the veterans of a regiment want to see their past unit become so poorly financed and undermanned as to fold altogether? Of course not. On the less critical level units would have to put aside their longstanding rivalries, and egos,and yes, self-pride and see to what was best for Nova Scotia's and Canada's defense. The benefits would undoubtedly outweigh the growing pains. Imagine having a fully manned Battalion for a CO to lead complete with a full HQ ;   a company commander with 3 full platoons and weapons det to manoeuvre...right down to section level. The quality of leadership at all levels would improve because now many fewer positions would be available. So....if you want to keep your bars Captain so and so...you better prove that we need you, or you're back to 2Lt, or into the ranks. As for finances, administrative operating budgets would be cut dramatically to allow for spending on training and equipment (Hell, maybe even become fully mechanized) Right now, we may think that we exist as independents within 36 Brigade, but were just fooling ourselves...Lieutenant Colonels leading what? 200 troops...on paper no doubt. I can only name one who would actually be combat ready to lead a Battalion size force(LCol TBS). The rest...sorry, paper pushers, nothing more. Want to argue the present arrangement? Among other reasons, the system is in place so as to provide the framework for mass mobilization should the need arise. Well I don't think Canada will be playing a major part in any wars very soon and even if they did, in our society today, sadly, citizens would not exactly be lining up at the main gate to sign up. Better to consolidate what we have now and make it strong as steel, and then continue to grow on its foundation. Operational plan...who knows...I'm sure they would form a committee... but details are details, it the concept that has to be embraced first: The Royal Nova Scotian Regiment. PS I'll mention that this idea was originally presented to me by a Cpl in my past platoon, a Cpl who by the standards of men better than I, should be a MWO.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

More info on Aussie reserve taskings