Denial of Access to MIR By Unit

[Occam]

Try these:

CANFORGEN 039/08 Disclosure of Medical/Social Work Info to Commanding Officers
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-20 Disclosure of Personal Health Information
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-26 Unacceptable Use and Disclosure of Personal Health Information

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Can you build upon this part? When you say refuse your request are you talking exclusively about the right to go to Sick parade for medical treatment? Or are you talking about in the middle of the day you suddenly realize you need to book your 4th dental cleaning in 3 months? I feel there is a difference between those scenarios.

Valid

 

[Tibbson]

Try these:

CANFORGEN 039/08 Disclosure of Medical/Social Work Info to Commanding Officers
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-20 Disclosure of Personal Health Information
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-26 Unacceptable Use and Disclosure of Personal Health Information

I'd also be making a harassment complaint, especially considering this ad hoc policy is being applied to one Coy only. 

 

[OldSolduer]

I'd also be making a harassment complaint, especially considering this ad hoc policy is being applied to one Coy only.

I wouldn't go there just yet.

IMO it's a soldier's RIGHT to go on Sick Parade. The only codicile I have to that is that soldiers need to use that right responsibly.
Perhaps a PD session with the officers and WOs with the Medical pers to review policy.......

 

[Old Sweat]

When I was an 18-year-old recruit in the RCA Depot, I woke up one morning with all sorts of sh.tty things wrong and asked one of the troops NCOs to let me go on sick parade. I was then berated as a malinger and warned that if I was not sick, I would be charged. As i had a temperature of 102, etc I got the Canadian Army's standard cure for all ills: 48 hrs excused duty and a bunch of pills that at least in size, would have been quire suitable for elephant suppositories.

There was a definite attitude that most troops who went on sick parade were malingering, and it went from the top down.

There also was a wide-spread belief that MOs always gave excused duty rather than weed out the malingerers and order the troops to get back on duty. (A subset, which in reflection has more holes than a screen door, is that a devious MIR commando could always outwit the MIR staff.)

 

[MJP]

I'd like to think any AdminO would advise the CofC 'this is a baddddddd idea', if trying to go for RMs, as an example.

I'd like to think it wouldn't even make it to, or past, the DI stage.

Well I have a sneaking suspicion that he is army or at least at a unit that is mostly army so I would be surprised if there are Admin Os.  Generally the Pl/Tp Comds with guidance from the 2IC (and Coy Clerk dependent on Org) are the de facto Admin Os for their soldiers.  Which depending on their experience can mean they might not have the experience to realize that it is a bogus order or they might feel that they can't speak up for fear for their own careers.  Even if there was a dedicated Admin O, they are not the trained HR Log Os that you would experience in the RCAF.  They may or may not know all the ins and out of the million references we now have to use to make a decision in this risk adverse military. 


To the OP as many here have said, the policy to disclose a reason for going to MIR is pure junk.  A CoC's ability to monitor and ensure folks aren't abusing the system via "time stamps" isn't junk and can be legit although draconian if enforced religiously for all.  Admin measures or punishments for blank chits is pure junk.  You have some great references from the folks here to follow up with your CoC and express your concerns.  This wouldn't fly in any unit I have ever served with and while I have seen instances of things that you allude to pop up from time to time, it has quickly been corrected by various CoCs at all levels.

 

[OldSolduer]

When I was an 18-year-old recruit in the RCA Depot, I woke up one morning with all sorts of sh.tty things wrong and asked one of the troops NCOs to let me go on sick parade. I was then berated as a malinger and warned that if I was not sick, I would be charged. As i had a temperature of 102, etc I got the Canadian Army's standard cure for all ills: 48 hrs excused duty and a bunch of pills that at least in size, would have been quire suitable for elephant suppositories.

There was a definite attitude that most troops who went on sick parade were malingering, and it went from the top down.

I've tried, and so have others, to destigmatize the whole sick parade thing. It's a resource for soldiers to use whether they are physically ill or mentally ill.
Yes, I've heard the brainwashed retards who verbalized the " MIR Commando" for legitimately ill and injured  troops.

 

[medicineman]

After being posted in Kingston for 7 years, I have an idea what unit(s) we're dealing with.  I remember having to sit in a locked room every afternoon for a month auditing Sick Parade registers and cross referencing nominal rolls, looking for patterns from a sub-unit of a major lodger unit in Kingston (cough, CFSCE, cough) due to abuses of authority within one of the squadrons that lead to an almost 100% sick parade rate within that sub unit leading to countless days of sick leave.  Most of the complaints, as one might guess, were MH related...

Anyway, a mere Major, unless even if they are a Commanding Officer, does not have the authority to make such, hmmm, silly policies.  He does have the right to demand that you check in with the duty staff to say you're going on Sick Parade so that you are accounted for, however, they don't have the right to know as to why you're going...you're allowed to volunteer that if you choose, but they really have no right to ask.  A Commanding Officer is allowed to discuss generalities of someone's condition with an MO or medical staff, but that is pretty much limited to what's in the aforementioned policies Occam brought forth.  Essentially, "Bloggins is broken, here's what they can and can't do and for how long".
 
I think the first time this Maj is subject to his/her own policy and has to divulge to the duty staff that they're going to go on Sick Parade because "I'm peeing razor blades and have a weird drip that won't go away", they'll rethink their policy...

MM

Edited for sleep deprivation messing up thought process

 

[Nfld Sapper]

When at CFSME  I tell my staff I have no issues with them going to the MIR all that I ask from them is that they inform me when they go and then to check in with me when they are released so I can see their chit/MEL and record it on their shadow file. To me the OP's CoC needs to shake their head....my  :2c:

 

[TCM621]

The MIR CoC will have kittens if and when they find out about this. However, unless it's in writing it can always be denied. I would ask for where I could find the policy so I could QUOTE ensure I follow proper procedure. I'm still pretty new UNQUOTE. If you don't get one go about your merry way and see the doctor when you need to. There are hundreds of us on this board who are probably dealing with injuries that probably could have been fixed if we hadn't fallen for the "only malingerers and passes go to the MIR line". The medical system, to their credit "has realize the damage their part in that culture caused and will cause a huge ruckus if the CoC does not play by the rules. If they can not produce a policy in writing when you ask for it, there is nothing they can do legally or administratively.

 

[ModlrMike]

As others have said, you have an absolute right to seek care, and an absolute right to keep the contents of your visit confidential.

There's any number of orders that prohibit the kind of treatment you allege. I would ask for a written copy of the directive. Failing that, if you need to go on sick parade then do so. If they want to charge you then let them. It will come out at trial.

 

[wonknu]

Thanks to everyone for confirming my suspicions about this policy.  I will definitely be looking into it further.  I did receive written confirmation of the policy and it appears to only be in place for certain days of the week (Depending on the duty missed).

To clarify it is for morning sick parade attendance.

I think a lot of you would be horrified (Or maybe not) if you knew what unit this was and what this kind of message to subordinates means for the future of the C.F.

Once again, thanks to all.

 

[Pusser]

Here's a QR&O that may be useful:

19.18 - CONCEALMENT OF DISEASE

An officer or non-commissioned member who is suffering or suspects he is suffering from a disease shall without delay report himself sick.

This is a Queen's Regulation and ORDER, which says you MUST see someone.  Note that it does not say you need additional approval from somebody else.

As a general rule over the last 30 years, I have found that instances of actual malingering are pretty rare.  Yes, there are folks who will fall to the ground screaming over a hangnail while others will want to continue working despite the missing limb ("it's only a flesh wound"), but most fall somewhere in between those extremes.  True malingerers usually have other character flaws as well (lazy, always complaining, etc) so the fact that they are always in MIR is only one of several indications that there is a problem.

I always try to make it clear to my subordinates that I would rather lose them for a few days while they get their illness or injuries tended to properly, than for a few months because they tried to "work through it" and only made it worse.  On more than one occasion, I have ordered "keeners" to go  home or to MIR to get themselves looked after.  Not going to MIR when you need to (or even think you need to ) is counter-productive.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think a lot of you would be horrified (Or maybe not) if you knew what unit this was and what this kind of message to subordinates means for the future of the C.F.

You'd be surprised at how much it takes to surprise some here  ;D

Good luck.

 

[Sf2]

Your OC gave an unlawful order.

You are in no way obliged to follow it.  Go to sick parade.

 

[Pusser]

Your OC gave an unlawful order.

You are in no way obliged to follow it.  Go to sick parade.

Careful there.  Just because you think an order is unlawful does not mean you can just ignore it.  It must be manifestly unlawful to do that.

19.015 - LAWFUL COMMANDS AND ORDERS

Every officer and non-commissioned member shall obey lawful commands and orders of a superior officer.

(M)

NOTES

(A) The expression "superior officer" includes a non-commissioned member. (See article 1.02 - Definitions.)

(B) Usually there will be no doubt as to whether a command or order is lawful or unlawful. In a situation, however, where the subordinate does not know the law or is uncertain of it he shall, even though he doubts the lawfulness of the command, obey unless the command is manifestly unlawful.

(C) An officer or non-commissioned member is not justified in obeying a command or order that is manifestly unlawful. In other words, if a subordinate commits a crime in complying with a command that is manifestly unlawful, he is liable to be punished for the crime by a civil or military court. A manifestly unlawful command or order is one that would appear to a person of ordinary sense and understanding to be clearly illegal; for example, a command by an officer or non-commissioned member to shoot a member for only having used disrespectful words or a command to shoot an unarmed child.

(D) With respect to riots, subsection 32(2) of the Criminal Code (Revised Statutes of Canada, 1985, Chapter C-46) states:


"32. (2) Every one who is bound by military law to obey the command of his superior officer is justified in obeying any command given by his superior officer for the suppression of a riot unless the order is manifestly unlawful."

 

[PMedMoe]

a sub-unit of a major lodger unit in Kingston (cough, CFSCE, cough)

That, I can believe.  If the Maj who was there when I was in Kingston is still there.  He's an idiot.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

As others have said, you have an absolute right to seek care, and an absolute right to keep the contents of your visit confidential.

There's any number of orders that prohibit the kind of treatment you allege. I would ask for a written copy of the directive. Failing that, if you need to go on sick parade then do so. If they want to charge you then let them. It will come out at trial.

Unless they just give him a shit ton of extras for which there is no paper trail

 

[Fishbone Jones]

When I was an 18-year-old recruit in the RCA Depot, I woke up one morning with all sorts of sh.tty things wrong and asked one of the troops NCOs to let me go on sick parade. I was then berated as a malinger and warned that if I was not sick, I would be charged. As i had a temperature of 102, etc I got the Canadian Army's standard cure for all ills: 48 hrs excused duty and a bunch of pills that at least in size, would have been quire suitable for elephant suppositories.

There was a definite attitude that most troops who went on sick parade were malingering, and it went from the top down.

There also was a wide-spread belief that MOs always gave excused duty rather than weed out the malingerers and order the troops to get back on duty. (A subset, which in reflection has more holes than a screen door, is that a devious MIR commando could always outwit the MIR staff.)

No cure all Cepacol? 

 

[DAA]

Try these:

CANFORGEN 039/08 Disclosure of Medical/Social Work Info to Commanding Officers
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-20 Disclosure of Personal Health Information
CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 5020-26 Unacceptable Use and Disclosure of Personal Health Information

Here's a QR&O that may be useful:

19.18 - CONCEALMENT OF DISEASE

An officer or non-commissioned member who is suffering or suspects he is suffering from a disease shall without delay report himself sick.

This is a Queen's Regulation and ORDER, which says you MUST see someone.  Note that it does not say you need additional approval from somebody else.

And I shall throw in CANFORGEN 128/03 if not already mentioned.  It would probably be much easier to voice these concerns with your local Health Care Providers.  A simple statement to the MO such as "I had to fully disclose my condition/illness to my CoC prior to being authorized to report here to the MIR for treatment."  I'm sure that would go over really well..........