Denial of Access to MIR By Unit

[OldSolduer]

To me its good news.

Some CoCs walk around with hard ons thinking they are special and they choose to do things their own way with the their own rules.

Just shows. Some CoCs are out for themselves and not for their troops, and the need a wake up call.

You are correct in your assessment but all of us older folks know some career corporals who were real guard house lawyers. Every time a soldier was disciplined they'd spout off indignantly "they can't do that" and encourage others to adopt a similar attitude.

Most soldiers see right through these types.

 

[X Royal]

You are correct in your assessment but all of us older folks know some career corporals who were real guard house lawyers. Every time a soldier was disciplined they'd spout off indignantly "they can't do that" and encourage others to adopt a similar attitude.

In in many cases they were correct and just didn't give a hoot who they p*ssed off, the reason they remained corporals for life.
Being correct but bucking the preferred path of the COC doesn't jump someone up the list for career courses or promotion.

 

[TCM621]

Leadership is not a popularity contest, yet it amazes me how some "leaders" have an Asperger-esque understanding of the dynamics created by their "leadership-style". Oh well.

Funny how good leaders are almost always popular though. You can't be a good leader by trying to be popular one but you can be a popular leader by trying to be a good one.

Good leaders seem to be able to work the troops like dogs and the troops are happy to do it.

 

[TCM621]

There were good reasons for that procedure.

The kit had to be packed in case you were hospitalized, so at least you had some kit. Otherwise your Pl WO would have to chase it down and bring it to you.
There is no good reason to have you formed up under the BOS while the remainder of the battlaion has a morning parade.

That was the explanation given, I seem to remember being confused as to why my twisted ankle would require hospitalization. Come to think of it, now almost 20 years on I can't think of one time I went to the MIR for sick parade and ended up hospitalized. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

That was the explanation given, I seem to remember being confused as to why my twisted ankle would require hospitalization. Come to think of it, now almost 20 years on I can't think of one time I went to the MIR for sick parade and ended up hospitalized.

It may seem odd in this day and age, but think back to the days (maybe even before your time) when a good percentage of single soldiers lived in the shacks, even when not on course.  A primary reason why "base hospitals" continued to provide in-patient care was to accommodate living-in pers who (even though they did not actually require admission to a "real hospital") had no one to care for them in the shack.

Your twisted ankle may have been minor to your non-medically trained self but I've had soldiers limp into the MIR looking for a tensor bandage and excused PT chit and after examination and x-rays found themselves in need of a cast.  It was even more necessary (back in the day) that soldiers on course (particularly basic training - the only time that I personally had to strip bedding and take my small pack on sick parade. . . broke toe in the swimming pool) were prepared to not return to their course, either because an injury would prevent them from continuing or their medical problem was possibly contagious and they had to be separated to prevent the spread.

 

[X Royal]

Even with your example of a soldier requiring a cast hospitalization wouldn't be required.
The whole pack up your gear system was a way to discourage those from reporting on sick parade.
Hopes were that only those really requiring treatment would go on sick parade.
The down side was those who should of gone earlier resisted going only to make the problem they were having get far worse.
I almost got re-coursed on basic in Cornwallis when the MO was going to hospitalize me for a lung infection which could have been treated easier if I reported earlier.
I was lucky enough to convince him to pump me full of antibiotics and let to continue.
I spent a couple of days excused drill while the platoon prepared for graduation but improved after a couple of days and finished with the course.

 

[Occam]

You are correct in your assessment but all of us older folks know some career corporals who were real guard house lawyers. Every time a soldier was disciplined they'd spout off indignantly "they can't do that" and encourage others to adopt a similar attitude.

Most soldiers see right through these types.

More often than not, users of the term "guard house lawyer" are simply people who got egg on their face for not being aware of a regulation that someone else did have knowledge of. 

Some people are career corporals by choice - not everyone aspires to higher rank or more advanced career coursing.  Nearly everyone wants to be treated respectfully, though.

 

[medicineman]

Even with your example of a soldier requiring a cast hospitalization wouldn't be required.

I can remember countless occasions where we'd done short stay admissions for guys/gals living in shacks that had casts on - simply because in those days we didn't use fibreglass the way we do now, so a leg cast was up to 50+ lbs of wet plaster that needed to set properly and often caused a lot of grief for the poor sod that had to crutch their way up and down stairs, to the mess, etc. 

More often than not, users of the term "guard house lawyer" are simply people who got egg on their face for not being aware of a regulation that someone else did have knowledge of. 

I do agree with this, but only to a point - for every person that's like that I've run into, there are I'd say four or five that really know squat about dick all without really knowing how little they really know and their "opinions" spread like a virus...people hear and believe what they want to hear and believe, especially those facing charges or administrative actions.  They take what that twit said to heart, only to end up having a really rude shock when they find out that Cpl Numpty really does take after their namesake.

:2c:

MM

 

[TCM621]

I can remember countless occasions where we'd done short stay admissions for guys/gals living in shacks that had casts on - simply because in those days we didn't use fibreglass the way we do now, so a leg cast was up to 50+ lbs of wet plaster that needed to set properly and often caused a lot of grief for the poor sod that had to crutch their way up and down stairs, to the mess, etc. 

I do agree with this, but only to a point - for every person that's like that I've run into, there are I'd say four or five that really know squat about dick all without really knowing how little they really know and their "opinions" spread like a virus...people hear and believe what they want to hear and believe, especially those facing charges or administrative actions.  They take what that twit said to heart, only to end up having a really rude shock when they find out that Cpl Numpty really does take after their namesake.

:2c:

MM

Good info. It may very well have been a hold over from before my time. God knows there are enough of them.

And as a self professed barracks lawyer, I will fully admit for every person like me who reads regs and researchs entitlements and limitations, there are 5 who assume rumours as facts. It can such for a bit until guys get to know you and realize you are aren't a troublemaker. I am just upfront with it now. I tell people, "I read regs and will argue points based on them. I have no problem with being wrong, just prove it so I know how to find the right answer for next time".

 

[OldSolduer]

Some people are career corporals by choice - not everyone aspires to higher rank or more advanced career coursing.  Nearly everyone wants to be treated respectfully, though.

I agree. There are some who want to remain as corporals, and I have no issue with that.

It's the ones who think they are lawyers, master strategists, tactical geniuses and RMS clerks all rolled into one that irritate me.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Leadership is not a popularity contest

No that's getting promoted

 

[Blackadder1916]

Even with your example of a soldier requiring a cast hospitalization wouldn't be required.

Medicineman provided adequate response.

The whole pack up your gear system was a way to discourage those from reporting on sick parade.
Hopes were that only those really requiring treatment would go on sick parade.
The down side was those who should of gone earlier resisted going only to make the problem they were having get far worse. . . .

It may have contributed to discouraging the "sick, lame and lazy" but the packing up of one's gear (something I've only seen in recruit and battle school situations) was a security and time saving measure - security of the soldier's kit and time saving for the staff (recruits' time doesn't matter).  Having to take your small pack with shaving kit, change of gitch and (IIRC from Cornwallis forty years ago) PT strip on sick parade was necessary if one was admitted - the CFMS didn't have hospital uniforms for issue.

I almost got re-coursed on basic in Cornwallis when the MO was going to hospitalize me for a lung infection which could have been treated easier if I reported earlier.

Sounds more like you were more at fault that anyone else.  Granted there have been many occasions when the medical conditions of inexperienced soldiers have been overlooked or deliberately ignored by their immediate superiors and shame on them for their negligence of duty.  At the same time there have been many incidences of soldiers not reporting a medical condition because they didn't want to appear weak or because it would have delayed completing a course.  They are equally at fault.

Being aware of the physical condition of one's soldiers was always (in my time anyway) a leadership responsibility.  I can't count the number of times that I've examined the feet of soldiers after a long march either as a medic (often in conjunction with or at the direction of Sect Comds, Pl Comd, OCs or their NCO/WO counterparts), or as a section/platoon/company commander.  It is possible to be aware of the physical and medical condition of a soldier without having the specific details of an individual's medical problem (trying to keep this post on tangent with the thread). 

 

[upandatom]

You are correct in your assessment but all of us older folks know some career corporals who were real guard house lawyers. Every time a soldier was disciplined they'd spout off indignantly "they can't do that" and encourage others to adopt a similar attitude.

Most soldiers see right through these types.

I am all for discipline when it is required. Do not call me on that, extra training for sure. There are those that read one or two CANFORGENS that yammer on with no idea.
To a certain extent I think "Extra Training" should be brought back instead of whipping out a charge sheet, we waste alot of time and money on the Military judicial process for some matters that can clearly be sorted with a March in front of the RSM and the option for a summary trial or extras on the table.

I know there are many units out there that do as they please. Case in hand;
I was at one that made the sick/injured walk around the base(small base 3km or so) and not go into the weight room to work out, or follow their prescribed physio workout plan. (written, documented)
Instead they were paraded in front of the unit, (many with legitimate injuries, torn knee, torn shoulder, broken wrists) every PT session and told to walk, regardless of the injury for the full 1hr pt period,
while the members who weren't injured would carry on with a 5km run, return 30 min later and shower and be let go early. (PT was at the end of the day)

This was all due to there being no Senior NCOs to "supervise" the members in the weightroom. I know for a fact that there were several MCpls that were PLQ qualified, and responsible.

Even when the members returned from the "injured nature walks," they were told to get into the fast group, and would either injure themselves or become discouraged, disgruntled.

That isnt at all looking after the welfare or well being of your troops. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I know there are many units out there that do as they please. Case in hand;
I was at one that made the sick/injured walk around the base(small base 3km or so) and not go into the weight room to work out, or follow their prescribed physio workout plan. (written, documented)
Instead they were paraded in front of the unit, (many with legitimate injuries, torn knee, torn shoulder, broken wrists) every PT session and told to walk, regardless of the injury for the full 1hr pt period,
while the members who weren't injured would carry on with a 5km run, return 30 min later and shower and be let go early. (PT was at the end of the day)

This was all due to there being no Senior NCOs to "supervise" the members in the weightroom. I know for a fact that there were several MCpls that were PLQ qualified, and responsible.

Even when the members returned from the "injured nature walks," they were told to get into the fast group, and would either injure themselves or become discouraged, disgruntled.

That isnt at all looking after the welfare or well being of your troops.

There is just too much  :facepalm: in there. 

 

[AirDet]

I'm curious, has anyone in Kingston reported this policy to the MIR's CSM? MWOs, CWOs, CSMs, and RSMs are there to fix things like this. I would start there.

If that intimidates you talk to a WRA about abuse of authority. That's one of the reasons they're there.

The CF has systems in place to balance things. A WRA can advice you properly. There is a list qualified of WRAs on Kingston's main webpage.

 

[DAA]

I'm curious, has anyone in Kingston reported this policy to the MIR's CSM? MWOs, CWOs, CSMs, and RSMs are there to fix things like this. I would start there.

If that intimidates you talk to a WRA about abuse of authority. That's one of the reasons they're there.

The CF has systems in place to balance things. A WRA can advice you properly. There is a list qualified of WRAs on Kingston's main webpage.

Welcome to the conversation.  Obviously, you didn't read the whole thread ---->  http://army.ca/forums/threads/117679/post-1348037.html#msg1348037

 

[Greymatters]

I think another topic at that O-group will be a discussion on why troops are taking their problems to an Internet forum instead of dealing with problems 'in-house'...

I think my comment has been misinterpreted by a few readers; I am not implying that the soldier at the bottom of this incident should have kept it 'in-house'; I think it was use of a good resource for this website to be used as a form of whistleblower.

My comment refers to an OC/CO of an O-Group looking at their senior officers and NCO's and asking 'why am I hearing about this problem from the Base Surgeon (and/or the Internet), and not from my own staff'?

 

[George Wallace]

I think my comment has been misinterpreted by a few readers; I am not implying that the soldier at the bottom of this incident should have kept it 'in-house'; I think it was use of a good resource for this website to be used as a form of whistleblower.

My comment refers to an OC/CO of an O-Group looking at their senior officers and NCO's and asking 'why am I hearing about this problem from the Base Surgeon (and/or the Internet), and not from my own staff'?

AH!  Memories of an RCR LCol who thought a cell phone was a secure means and issued his orders to his subordinates via that means, all the while EW was monitoring freqs for the enemy force.  He couldn't figure out why the Enemy could so accurately foresee his every move........until it all came out in the Hot Wash.    :nod:

[Edit to add]

Today's leaders have to be conscious that there are so many different means of communications available to today's soldiers, and so many means to research or ask questions, that they may not need the CoC to clarify matters that may be questionable.