Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors

[Retired AF Guy]

There are plenty of places to compress and reduce within the ECSes, before we even start asking: An Intelligence Command?  Really?  Isn't the Provost Marshall the security officer - why is there another person in that position? 

The Intelligence Command and the Provost Marshall are two totally different beasts; in a nutshell, one is about determining the threats to Canada and her allies, and the other is about law enforcement.

 

[George Wallace]

The Intelligence Command and the Provost Marshall are two totally different beasts; in a nutshell, one is about determining the threats to Canada and her allies, and the other is about law enforcement.

Another amalgamation that was a FAIL and thankfully was undone.  But if you want the MPs to be doing your INT Briefs, fill your boots.

 

[medicineman]

This is an excerpt from an actual email I received, which goes on in nauseating detail down to to what fonts I am allowed to use on a signature block. If there are people who have the time and energy to carry out tasks like the pointy haired boss in Dilbert, then there are clearly far too many people inhabiting the food chain:

Not only do they have time and energy, I'm willing to bet they make more dollars per second than I do per hour to come up with this nonsense  :facepalm:

MM

 

[dapaterson]

The Intelligence Command and the Provost Marshall are two totally different beasts; in a nutshell, one is about determining the threats to Canada and her allies, and the other is about law enforcement.

Apologies for being insufficiently clear.  Those were seperate complaints:

1. There is no need for an Int Command; it should be a cell under CJOC.

2.  The Departmental Security Officer is a new creation that should properly be a function under the Provost Marshall.

 

[George Wallace]

CJOC?

Is CJOC now to become the National Joint command center for all operational forces, making all other commands redundant and obsolete?  The "One and Only"?  No more Maritime Command (East and West)?  No more Air Division?  No more Army or SOF commands?  What about Leitrim?  What about JTFX?  What about CFJIC, CDI, MCE, and Cbt Camera?  What about all the INT Coys, ASICS, Bde INT Cells, and on and on?

That would streamline the system; likely cutting out 90% of the staff officer jobs.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

CJOC?

Is CJOC now to become the National Joint command center for all operational forces, making all other commands redundant and obsolete?  The "One and Only"?  No more Maritime Command (East and West)?  No more Air Division?  No more Army or SOF commands?  What about Leitrim?  What about JTFX?  What about CFJIC, CDI, MCE, and Cbt Camera?  What about all the INT Coys, ASICS, Bde INT Cells, and on and on?

That would streamline the system; likely cutting out 90% of the staff officer jobs.

Nope.  CJOC is the sole Force Employer.  Everyone else is a mere Force Generator.  Leave resident Int capacity with the FG formations so that they can train and prepare for deployment together -the C2 belongs in the Force Employer....after all, we need Int for Warning, and scanning the horizon should rest with CJOC.

 

[vonGarvin]

Nope.  CJOC is the sole Force Employer.  Everyone else is a mere Force Generator. 

I  apologize in advance if this is a tangent or has already been queried, but:
What did we do in the "bad old days" of the Cold War? 4 CMBG was a "force to be employed" along with 5e Brigade (either with CAST or as part of 1st Canadian Division), and 1 RCR was part of AMF (L), etc etc.  I realize that the DCDS group was the "reach back", but how were things managed?  And if it worked (not sure if it did or didn't), would it be worth it to go back to that?  I.E. Make the army commander in charge of the army, to include training and employment of forces?

 

[AmmoTech90]

The reason that Ottawa needs so many L1s is that they are the only people who can approve non-local travel from units in the NCR.  They would rapidly burn out from reviewing briefing notes on day trips to Kingston or Petawawa is there wasn't a way to spread the pain.

 

[Ostrozac]

The reason that Ottawa needs so many L1s is that they are the only people who can approve non-local travel from units in the NCR.  They would rapidly burn out from reviewing briefing notes on day trips to Kingston or Petawawa is there wasn't a way to spread the pain.

???

I served in several NCR units, including quite recently on RSS, and my CO's had full authority to authorize travel, including road moves to Petawawa and Meaford, travel waivers for guys going on PLQ, etc... None of that had to go to the formation commander except for the CO's personal travel. Certainly none of it needed approval of the CLS.

 

[McG]

I  apologize in advance if this is a tangent or has already been queried, but:
What did we do in the "bad old days" of the Cold War? 4 CMBG was a "force to be employed" along with 5e Brigade (either with CAST or as part of 1st Canadian Division), and 1 RCR was part of AMF (L), etc etc.  I realize that the DCDS group was the "reach back", but how were things managed?  And if it worked (not sure if it did or didn't), would it be worth it to go back to that?  I.E. Make the army commander in charge of the army, to include training and employment of forces?

We had Canadian Forces Europe.  CFE was a command that could be described as a deployed CJOC for the Cold War's European front.  Maybe that gives validity to the current structure.

 

[McG]

... Well, validity to the CJOC existence in the current CAF structure.  Not the structure of CJOC itself.

 

[dapaterson]

???

I served in several NCR units, including quite recently on RSS, and my CO's had full authority to authorize travel, including road moves to Petawawa and Meaford, travel waivers for guys going on PLQ, etc... None of that had to go to the formation commander except for the CO's personal travel. Certainly none of it needed approval of the CLS.

New rules.  For NCR units, L1 authority is required for travel outside the area.  For non-NCR units, Base Commander or equivalent (includes unit COs) may authorize travel within Canada; L2 (with power of commander of a command) authority is required to leave the country.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

 

[Ostrozac]

... Well, validity to the CJOC existence in the current CAF structure.  Not the structure of CJOC itself.

Personally, I think the idea of CEFCOM/CJOC is a good one, but I think that Gen Hillier really missed an opportunity when he decided to stand it up in Ottawa. We copied the US Combatant Command model without realizing that one of the key parts of the US system is the inside-Washington/outside-Washington split.

Actually, now that I think about it, I rather like the idea of CJOC being in Saint John's -- so that they would wake up an hour and a half before Ottawa, and therefore always be one step ahead of the strat leadership.

 

[Ostrozac]

New rules.  For NCR units, L1 authority is required for travel outside the area.  For non-NCR units, Base Commander or equivalent (includes unit COs) may authorize travel within Canada; L2 (with power of commander of a command) authority is required to leave the country.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

So the CLS is now micromanaging when the units of 33 Brigade go to Pet? Weird. I guess things have changed in the last year, if it's gotten that bad.

Edit: And I suppose the CLS is also personally interested in the movements of le Regiment de Hull, too!

 

[Remius]

So the CLS is now micromanaging when the units of 33 Brigade go to Pet? Weird. I guess things have changed in the last year, if it's gotten that bad.

Edit: And I suppose the CLS is also personally interested in the movements of le Regiment de Hull, too!

The rule isn't that new nor is it NCR specific.  But it may be that some orgs are just starting to implement it.

The actual rules are at the link below (and exceptions that likely cover things like local reserve units are found here as well) and this isn't a DND or CF led thing.  It's a TBS policy.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=27228&section=text

 

[George Wallace]

-- so that they would wake up an hour and a half before Ottawa, and therefore always be one step ahead of the strat leadership.

Or so far ahead that they are behind.  ;D

 

[TCM621]

The biggest problem is that there are people in HQs reading this thinking, "They are totally right. There are to many people in the HQs. They need to cut some of the fat.  Not my department though. We are essential. In fact I could use some help around here."

 

[Remius]

The biggest problem is that there are people in HQs reading this thinking, "They are totally right. There are to many people in the HQs. They need to cut some of the fat.  Not my department though. We are essential. In fact I could use some help around here."

Ha!

Good point.

 

[AmmoTech90]

The rule isn't that new nor is it NCR specific.  But it may be that some orgs are just starting to implement it.

The actual rules are at the link below (and exceptions that likely cover things like local reserve units are found here as well) and this isn't a DND or CF led thing.  It's a TBS policy.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=27228&section=text

That ref allows the deputy (DM/CDS) to delegate authority below the L1 in certain circumstances (which DND could probably satisfy).  Whether DND does not do that on their volition, or because we are not trusted to by TBS is beside the point.  We have brought that pain on ourselves.

 

[dapaterson]

The rule isn't that new nor is it NCR specific.  But it may be that some orgs are just starting to implement it.

The actual rules are at the link below (and exceptions that likely cover things like local reserve units are found here as well) and this isn't a DND or CF led thing.  It's a TBS policy.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=27228&section=text

DND's own rules are found in the Delegation of Authorities document on the ADM(Fin CS) DWAN website, and do have NCR-specific directions (look under column 3, Travel on page 28 of the document). 

All RC Managers can approve local travel. Other travel requires at minimum the approval of a Level One Advisor or equivalent in the National Capital Region. Outside the National Capital Region, other travel requires at minimum the approval of Directors or Base Commanders (& Other Equivalents), except for international travel which requires at minimum the approval of a Level Two (Mil) Advisor with the authority of a Commander of a Command.

My understanding is that the specific terms of DND's policy were a resutl of negotiations with TBS.

I am reminded of the immortal words of Robert Downey Jr's character in Tropic Thunder.