Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors

[Scoobie Newbie]

Never go full retard

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Never go full retard

 

[Tibbson]

New rules.  For NCR units, L1 authority is required for travel outside the area.  For non-NCR units, Base Commander or equivalent (includes unit COs) may authorize travel within Canada; L2 (with power of commander of a command) authority is required to leave the country.

Yes, it is as stupid as it sounds.

Yep, it certainly is as stupid as it sounds.  And impractical too.  I recently spent some time with a Unit that would routinely deploy pers within Canada at all times of the day or work week.  After about a month of waking senior people in Ottawa to authorize travel outside our area (but within the region we were responsible to cover) the authority was devolved down.  I guess Colonels and such don't like to be awoken at o'dark stupid to authorize a few days of TD.

 

[Good2Golf]

At least L1 approvals for unit/sub-unit level travel beyond the NCR is not wasting an L1's time for just one person.

Say, on the other hand, the VCDS had to personally take time to  authorize one of his staff officers to travel to Winnioeg to explain to Air Force elements how Ottawa was looking to optimize use of resources...

 

[Navy_Pete]

Don't forget the separate approval required for an 'event request' on top of any travel.  We have an annual meeting where both coasts send some limited representation and spend a week talking about all things required for ships/subs to float/move.  It's very productive, and we are talking about what is probably a $200M+ annual program, for about $30k in travel total.

That had to get approval from the MND for the event, then separate TD approval for the two sets of coastal reps, referencing the MND event approval.  Took about a year, and had 30+signatures on the routing page.  Pretty awesome, sure the staff work to get approval cost more then the actual event.

 

[Rifleman62]

ADMINISTRATIVE MASTURBATION. We beat ourselves to death with staffing. 

 

[c_canuk]

here is a thought exercise I came up with...

Should a hostile entity trigger an EMP Pulse in the NCR that reduces all comms in and out of the NCR to pony express:

Assuming the base commanders and COs are able to recognize the NCR is out of the fight for at least a week. (bringing up backup comms online and dealing with the local situation of 900K + people suddenly without technology)

Would the bases likely be faster at mitigating the additional actions of the hostile entity, or slower?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am not sure your thought experiment should be at the "base commanders" level. The real issue would be how do CO's of fighting units would react.

I for one know that if my radio room reported that Ottawa has gone off the line, I would bring my ship to action stations immediately, until I can figure out what the F.. is going on.

I suspect that most commanding officers of fighting units would do the same locally, with the squadrons putting their planes in the air or at least on immediate notice, and the army 'field" units organizing themselves for local defence of their location.

The greatest problem would be coordination of everyone's action into a coherent whole - but that is the very point of taking the enemy's HQ out with an EMP. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

I am not sure your thought experiment should be at the "base commanders" level. The real issue would be how do CO's of fighting units would react.

I for one know that if my radio room reported that Ottawa has gone off the line, I would bring my ship to action stations immediately, until I can figure out what the F.. is going on.

I suspect that most commanding officers of fighting units would do the same locally, with the squadrons putting their planes in the air or at least on immediate notice, and the army 'field" units organizing themselves for local defence of their location.

The greatest problem would be coordination of everyone's action into a coherent whole - but that is the very point of taking the enemy's HQ out with an EMP.

:goodpost:

And the highlighted bit is why we have ~ why we NEED ~ headquarters and staffs. I hope no one is arguing that we don't want and need HQs. What we need to ask is: what should HQs do? What needs to happen above unit level? The (very big and complex) answers to those (simple) questions should lead us to some good decisions about the size and shape (and ranks levels) of the CF's command and control superstructure.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Fully agree with ERC.

If we don't foresee a future where we have to expand to a multiple corps Army to fight oversea, or to have multiple Air Force groups operating in far theatre in distinct air superiority and bombing campaigns, or operate Surface Action Groups, aircraft carriers and their escorts, and mid-ocean ASW escort groups simultaneously, then perhaps we don't need a HQ/command structure big enough to coordinate all that.

When you get right down to it, it boils down to identifying what are the actual foreseeable and likely threats to Canada and then determining the required capabilities to face them together with the C4I and administrative structure it requires … In short, we are probably due for a White Paper on defence, IMO. 

 

[Kirkhill]

It does make for an interesting thought experiment.

What it would suggest to me is that each local commander would grab ahold of whatever uniformed personnel and assets he/she had in the immediate vicinity and organize it into a fighting force (kind of like all of those ad hoc forces generated on the road to Dunkirk).

The next question would be: do they stay or do they go?  Followed by: If they go where do they go?  How do they go?  How many go? Do they have to regroup?

And how many people do you need to answer those questions?

 

[c_canuk]

I agree, but I figure that that the key players in charge of assets outside of the NCR know who each other are and have regular communications with them already.

They will have functional long range comms within reach at a moment's notice. Since they all have largely non overlapping AORs, I don't think losing NCR's input would be as crippling as one might think on first glance.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I don't think losing NCR's input would be as crippling as one might think on first glance.

Around these boards, you'll find many who'll go a step further and say it may improve things  >

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think such an exercise without notice would separate the leaders from the followers in a hurry.

 

[Loachman]

The best time that I ever had on any exercise in Germany (Fallex 1988 in this case, NATO's biggest ever, 250,000 troops playing, free-play corps vs corps) was the glorious few hours following the destruction of 444 Squadron's CP. The complete lack of incompetent micro-managing interference allowed us to do our jobs properly for the first time in my two years there (at that point).

Over the next few days, some dastardly saboteurs/unknown persons occasionally laid out large arrows with minetape that pointed to our CP. They may not have shown up as well from the air as they hoped, unfortunately, but we did get one more delightfully HQ-free period prior to endex at least.

 

[Robert0288]

here is a thought exercise I came up with...

Should a hostile entity trigger an EMP Pulse in the NCR that reduces all comms in and out of the NCR to pony express:

Assuming the base commanders and COs are able to recognize the NCR is out of the fight for at least a week. (bringing up backup comms online and dealing with the local situation of 900K + people suddenly without technology)

Would the bases likely be faster at mitigating the additional actions of the hostile entity, or slower?

Or reduce all traffic in and out of the NCR to 56.6k modem and/or Morse.  Think of how much things would improve.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Or reduce all traffic in and out of the NCR to 56.6k modem and/or Morse.  Think of how much things would improve.

And the collective BMI would plunge as donut gobblers everywhere would be kicked outside to physically run messages to and fro, you know, like in a real HQ operating in a secure environment.  :nod:

 

[Robert0288]

Until they realize how many Time Hortin's or McDonalds they can pass just going from one building to another.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Or reduce all traffic in and out of the NCR to 56.6k modem and/or Morse.  Think of how much things would improve.

Command and Control, 140 characters at a time .....

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Command and Control, 140 characters at a time .....

It sharpens the mind. I had a division commander once who decided that all OCS's intention messages would be passed to other ships by signal light for one week (that is using morse code one letter at a time). The signalmen made quite sure that all the JO's drafting those messages became very, very, very concise.  :nod: