CP-140 Aurora

[Eye In The Sky]

That sounds like a fun week of TD.  :blotto:

 

[GK .Dundas]

More FYI:

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/002310.html

Umm, according to this,

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2004/01/12/daily13.html

The 737 is Boeings best seller, and the Next-Gen 737 (on which the P8 is based) have been continuously updated.

On using the 767, while there is some merit to having a longer-ranged aircraft for this role, the 767 is, on average, twice as expensive as a 737 to buy and operate.

The USN seems to think that slow speed and low altitude operations aren't as important anymore, and would rather have an aircraft that can cruise higher (read larger sensor footprint), and faster (more area coverage).

The speed advantage is negligible? 440kts vs 330kts is a third faster. I wouldn't call that negligible.

The old prop P3 is not as fuel efficient as a 737, not even close. Plus, four, old props require a lot more maintenance than two, new turbofans.

Posted by Smitty | September 12, 2005 7:20 PM

Perhaps it's time to reconsider the the P 7 ?
You remember the original replacement for the P 3 ?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Because of a post by someone named "Smitty" and a post that person made in 2005?  ;D

 

[Sub_Guy]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/ground-patrol-ping-1.3940112

Sonar Op #1:  "Okay lady, can you describe the noise you heard?"
Igloolik lady:  "It sounded like a ping."
Sonar Op #2:  "Can you be more descriptive?"
Igloolik lady:  "It was kinda weeoooop-dewwwwp-woo-dooo-booooop-derp."
Sonar Op #1:  Closes his notebook.  "Well our work here is done."

Anything to get out of the office!  Sign me up!  Anything..... please...  Can someone get a recording of this "so-called" noise please?  Why are we wasting resources on such garbage?

"The USN seems to think that slow speed and low altitude operations aren't as important anymore, and would rather have an aircraft that can cruise higher (read larger sensor footprint), and faster (more area coverage)."

Right, because for every 1000 feet of altitude, you increase the detection range of your sonobuoys by 500 yards.

I think there is a plan afoot to upgrade the CP-140M to keep it flying beyond 2030.  I recall a briefing about engine/prop upgrades, something similar to the Hawkeye.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

for every 1000 feet of altitude, you increase the detection range of your sonobuoys by 500 yards.

I didn't know that.  Makes sense though... :nod:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Is that your detection of your own sonobuoys? Other than your ability to receive the signal, the altitude of the aircraft should immaterial to the detection ability of a sonobuoy floating on the surface? 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think we forgot something in our posts...

:sarcasm:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A week in Vegas dulled my senses........ :facepalm:

 

[Ping Monkey]

Right, because for every 1000 feet of altitude, you increase the detection range of your sonobuoys by 500 yards.

 

[dimsum]

Aircraft 101 is 38 years old today.

https://www.facebook.com/RCAF.ARC/photos/a.10150142814416237.282538.61263506236/10154082066261237/?type=3&theater

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Aircraft 101 is 38 years old today.

https://www.facebook.com/RCAF.ARC/photos/a.10150142814416237.282538.61263506236/10154082066261237/?type=3&theater

Pffft. Infant.

;D

 

[MarkOttawa]

Note highlighted Canada bit at end--what about CP-140s?

Allies And The Maritime Domain Strike Enterprise

The UK, Norway and the US have signed an agreement to work together on anti-submarine warfare (ASW) in the North Atlantic which will leverage the joint acquisition of the P-8 aircraft, another example of the US and its allies an evolving defense capability in which allies are clearly key partners...

I visited RAF Lossiemouth as well where the Brits are standing up their P-8 base. With the sun setting on the Nimrod, the RAF has kept their skill sets alive by taking Nimrod operators and putting them onboard planes flying in NATO exercises, most notably the Joint Warrior exercises run from the UK. This has been a challenge to key skill sets alive with no airplane of your own, but the US and allied navies worked collectively as the bridge until the Brits get the new aircraft.

The base being built at Lossiemouth will house not only UK aircraft, but allow Norwegians to train and the US to operate as well. Indeed, what was clear from discussions at Lossie is that the infrastructure is being built from the ground up with broader considerations in mind, notably in effect building a 21st century MDA highway. The RAF is building capacity in its P-8 hangers for visiting aircraft such as the RAAF, the US Navy or the Norwegian Air Force to train and operate from Lossiemouth. ..

In effect, a Maritime Domain Awareness highway or belt is being constructed from the UK through to Norway. A key challenge will be to establish ways to share data and to enable rapid decision-making in a region where the Russians are modernizing their forces and expanding their reach into the Arctic.

Obviously, a crucial missing in action player in this scheme is Canada. In my discussions with Commonwealth members and Northern Europeans there is clear concern about disappearing Canadian capabilities [emphasis added]...
http://breakingdefense.com/2017/07/allies-and-the-maritime-domain-strike-enterprise/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

Lol, the UK doesn't have the capability now, and we've been filling the gap.  The CP-140M was designed to serve until 2030.  The government has committed to a new platform. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Lol, the UK doesn't have the capability now, and we've been filling the gap.

I'll remind you that LRPAs are but one tool in the ASW toolbelt, with strengths in areas and weaknesses in others.  The UK has SSN as an example.  The ability for ONSTA for an Astute compared to an Aurora...not even worth comparing.  My opinion is don't count out any country that has SSK/nuc sub capabilities.  They are also flying Merlins while we launch Sea Kings.  Looking at ASW/TASW from the LRPA view only is myopic and flawed.

The CP-140M was designed to serve until 2030.  The government has committed to a new platform.

Not quite.  The Aurora has gone thru an extensive, expensive *modernization* program but that doesn't mean a new airframe.  AIMP, ASLEP and AEP are good projects for the fleet, for sure, BUT we are going to be behind countries like Norway, the UK and the USA.  IF the aircraft was designed to fly until 2030...it would not have needed those projects. 

The Nimrod went to the wayside because the direction it was heading (like our modernization program is taking us) was bad, resulting in one exploding mid-air.  So the fleet was scrapped instead of replaced at that time...but they still maintained AND improved their ASW capability with the T-boats and now, the Astute.  RAF commissioned and non-commissioned flyers have been embedded in Western Sqns for a while and will be until their P-8 program is wheels in the well.

Despite the announcement as part of the Defence Policy Review, as it stands now, there is not even a plan in place to start looking for the replacement this decade.  What is being considered, AFAIK, above the Block 4 level stuff is talk of new engines turning NP2000s...unconfirmed rumour at this time though.  You don't want to be the oldest and slowest guy in the TASW game...if everyone is doing Link 16 but you aren't...1 example.

Here's a few other things to consider, WRT how Canada procures/replaces fleets.

- Sea Kings

- FWSAR

- fighter replacement.

:2c:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=expanding-the-cp-140-modernized-aurora-fleet/hszrx7qw

 

[jmt18325]

Wrong on both accounts.  The Aurora has gone thru an extensive, expensive *modernization* program but that doesn't mean a new airframe.  AIMP, ASLEP and AEP are good projects for the fleet, for sure, BUT we are going to be behind countries like Norway, the UK and the USA.  IF the aircraft was designed to fly until 2030...it would have needed none of those projects. 

I'll have to leave aside all of the rest, because I don't pretend to know things that I, well, don't know.  The CP-140 was not designed to fly until 2030.  The CP-140M was designed for that.  I was only including the updated and modernized aircraft in there. 

 

[jmt18325]

One this is almost certain at this point (for the foreseeable future, anyway) - we won't be buying the P-8 made by Boeing.

 

[Kirkhill]

Hey JMT!

Can I buy your crystal ball?  Yours always seems to be a whole lot more clear than mine.

Admirable.

 

[TCM621]

I'll have to leave aside all of the rest, because I don't pretend to know things that I, well, don't know.  The CP-140 was not designed to fly until 2030.  The CP-140M was designed for that.  I was only including the updated and modernized aircraft in there.

I think the problem here is the word designed. It wasn't designed to fly until 2030, as much is that it is hoped they will stay serviceable and relevant until 2030. I can tell you 13 more years may be a very optimistic number for many of the airframes in the fleet. And when have we ever done anything from consultation to complete replacement in 13 years?

 

[jmt18325]

I think the problem here is the word designed. It wasn't designed to fly until 2030, as much is that it is hoped they will stay serviceable and relevant until 2030. I can tell you 13 more years may be a very optimistic number for many of the airframes in the fleet. And when have we ever done anything from consultation to complete replacement in 13 years?

You're both right - I said that completely wrong.  I wasn't trying to be an expert, I simply remember the article a few years ago about the modernization being completed on some aircraft and that they were expected to operate into the 2030s.  Why the last government went that route whey originally planned for a new 8 - 10 aircraft fleet, I'm not sure (other than $).

 

[jmt18325]

Hey JMT!

Can I buy your crystal ball?  Yours always seems to be a whole lot more clear than mine.

Admirable.

I just mean that it's unlikely that this government will buy a Boeing product.  That said I don't expect this government to be around post 2024, and I would imagine that the selection will happen somewhere around that time - could be a couple of years later.