CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[MTShaw]

You'll note that the article says we're looking to buy "up to" 16 aircraft. Depending on the price (and the pressure applied by the US) we could still end up with the originally mentioned 8-12 aircraft. I truly hope that's not the case but this is Canada after all...

Because of the speed of this LOR I think that we are having our arms twisted by the US Govt. So, we might get the amount the number of the P-8s that the US thinks we should have.

 

[MilEME09]

Because of the speed of this LOR I think that we are having our arms twisted by the US Govt. So, we might get the amount the number of the P-8s that the US thinks we should have.

Pretty sure the Americans think we should gave a lot more, like a squadron on each coast

 

[MTShaw]

Pretty sure the Americans think we should gave a lot more, like a squadron on each coast

Nobody’s perfect.

 

[KevinB]

Nobody’s perfect.

Perfect, no, but one should aim to be beyond just passable, let alone aiming to Fail.

 

[dimsum]

Pretty sure the Americans think we should gave a lot more, like a squadron on each coast.

...but we do have a squadron on each coast, not including the OTU and Test ones.

405 Sqn on the east coast
407 Sqn on the west coast

 

[Spencer100]

...but we do have a squadron on each coast, not including the OTU and Test ones.

405 Sqn on the east coast
407 Sqn on the west coast

The USN is 16 squadrons with about 112 units. So 7 airftames give or take per.

So looks about right with two for RACF plus the test and training units.

 

[MilEME09]

...but we do have a squadron on each coast, not including the OTU and Test ones.

405 Sqn on the east coast
407 Sqn on the west coast

You missed a coast, the arctic is becoming increasingly important

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You missed a coast, the arctic is becoming increasingly important

We have a few FOLs to cover that. Remember this is Long Range Patrol. I’ve taken off from Greenwood, flew up north, patrolled and recovered in Yellowknife. Launching from somewhere like Iqaluit just gives you the same range with less transit time.

 

[dimsum]

You missed a coast, the arctic is becoming increasingly important

Want to cover the western half? Launch from Comox, recover in Yellowknife.

Want to cover the eastern half? Launch from Greenwood, recover in Iqaluit.

 

[BrianWL]

Statement on the Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) for the Royal Canadian Air Force - In the news - Newsroom - PSPC

As part of its defence policy Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada is seeking to replace the CP-140 Aurora fleet with a Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) for the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF).

www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca

"...the government has determined that the P-8A Poseidon is the only currently available aircraft that meets all of the CMMA operational requirements, namely anti-submarine warfare and C4ISR."

"Canada has recently submitted a Letter of Request (LOR) through the United States government’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program outlining Canada’s requirements and requesting an offer. These requirements include up to 16 P-8A Poseidon aircraft..."

240,000 km of coastline divided into 16 birds. good lord. any rumored augmentation by UAS perhaps? Hire everyone on the coasts as Rangers? yeesh.

 

[Kirkhill]

You missed a coast, the arctic is becoming increasingly important

With @dimsum and @Eye In The Sky

We only have two coasts

One very short one - Juan de Fuca to Dixon's
One very long one - Fundy to the Mackenzie.

Alaska is an annoyance to navigation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

240,000 km of coastline divided into 16 birds. good lord. any rumored augmentation by UAS perhaps? Hire everyone on the coasts as Rangers? yeesh.

RPAS will likely fit into the equation once that fleet reaches IOC and then FOC. Remember we have had 14 Auroras for a while now and no RPAS.

The RCAF isn’t the only org that conducts surveillance flights in our AORs; TC, NASP, PAL, and space assets all partake.

Rangers aren’t much good for OTH or submerged stuff.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The USN is 16 squadrons with about 112 units. So 7 airftames give or take per.

So looks about right with two for RACF plus the test and training units.

Measuring aircraft / Sqn with the USN might not make 100% sense. They employ and deploy a VP Sqn quite differently than we do in Canadian LRP.

 

[quadrapiper]

Rangers aren’t much good for OTH or submerged stuff.

Bit past the point of someone spotting a U-boat resting up in an isolated inlet.

 

[Kirkhill]

This. plus CMMA, plus RPAS, plus North Warning, plus OTH ....

Don't they all have to be considered together as an entity?

And isn't the F-35 an ISR asset as well? It seems from reports that it is as much an intelligence asset as it is a striker.

And even the lowly Rangers and Mounties enter into the picture as well.

But doesn't the radarsat constellation have to be replaced or upgraded?

 

[armrdsoul77]

Interesting presentation on the CAHS channel by Col. Ernie Cable(ret) about the Aurora. He was in the program office during the transition from the Argus to Aurora and later CO of 405 squadron. Based on what the government wanted them to do with the aircraft they determined a need for 24 airframes(only 18 bought but with no reduction in tasking).
He also mentioned how the US Navy was hoping to have the P8 at the same capability as the CP140M in 10 years time(presentation from 5yrs ago).

 

[KevinB]

But doesn't the radarsat constellation have to be replaced or upgraded?

They need to be replaced very shortly.
I believe 2026 was end life for most.
I understand 2032 is the first possible date for replacement…

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Interesting presentation on the CAHS channel by Col. Ernie Cable(ret) about the Aurora. He was in the program office during the transition from the Argus to Aurora and later CO of 405 squadron. Based on what the government wanted them to do with the aircraft they determined a need for 24 airframes(only 18 bought but with no reduction in tasking).
He also mentioned how the US Navy was hoping to have the P8 at the same capability as the CP140M in 10 years time(presentation from 5yrs ago).

I respect the presenter but I can’t help but wish people in retirement would reach out for accurate info or have someone from the fleet present.

SCARc = Strike Coordination and Reconnaissance coordinator

There was no Block 3 Part 2. The MAD updates Deere part of Block 3.

The effectiveness was not to the level indicated in overland, particularly in IMPACT as it lacked a laser designator and a HD EOIR that included a colour EON feed. The iBLOS was problematic as well.

We didn’t do 6 month roto’s; OUP or IMPACT. People busted hours long before that and the vampire sleeping pattern burnt people out right around the time we maxed out hours. Our replacements would show up and we’d punch out.

He didn’t really understand what the Aurora did on IMPACT very well or what the airplan was there. Again I wish they’d pull someone in rather than guess.

Suggesting the Aurora was ever able to “do it longer” than an Argus is pretty unrealistic.

I don’t know about the “can’t de-ice” talk at the end. Done it more than a few times…

 

[armrdsoul77]

Musing on an Argus II (even a Yukon II).

Argus II?

 

[dimsum]

Musing on an Argus II (even a Yukon II).

Argus II?

Another developmental aircraft that will take decades to IOC?

No thanks.