CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[Eye In The Sky]

Not many people see inside the Aurora as she is today. The video I posted of the USN P-8 shows how modern it is; here's a few pics of Block 4 Aurora to compare...gives some visual sense of just how old the SGOD really is. My first time on a P-8 was around 2015, with VP-8 in Lossie. Getting back on the 140 after that was the first time I really had a sense of how old the Aurora really was.

Our bathroom; there's the "Stanley Cup" (urinal) some lucky crewmember gets to carry off each flight. Imagine 20 people and a 10+ hour transit. The toilet is neat as well; there's a disc ("the cassette") that slides in and gets hooked up with 2 hoses for "flushing". After flight, some lucky crewmember gets to unhook the cassette and carry it off the plane.




The galley/crew rest area...

This pic is taken facing aft just past the main cabin door; the galley/crew rest is in the back of the plane. Very noisy, very bouncy. Past the curtain, starboard side is the bench seat and table, port side is the "kitchen".



Table (Dad's 1975 Station Wagon style complete w/ fake wood panelling)



Kitchen area:

1. coffee urn
2. oven
3. toaster
4. fridge
5. 2 x hot cups




She's done her time and deserves a nice retirement.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

According to the Skies Magazine article "the government expects to spend C$10.4 billion on the new fleet, training system, advanced weapons, and upgrades to infrastructure."

So its very possible that the weapons systems will be bought separately.

As for sonobuoys, the same article states "The Aurora’s static passive sonobuoy system will be replaced by a multi-static active array system."

The article would be "not 100% accurate" then, as the 140 uses passive and active.

 

[Rifleman62]

Vassy Kapelos really goes after the Minister around 15:00 mark. Very good questions.

Defence Minister Bill Blair talks recruitment issues, budget cuts | Power Play with Vassy Kapelos​

 

[KevinB]

According to the Skies Magazine article "the government expects to spend C$10.4 billion on the new fleet, training system, advanced weapons, and upgrades to infrastructure."

So its very possible that the weapons systems will be bought separately.

As for sonobuoys, the same article states "The Aurora’s static passive sonobuoy system will be replaced by a multi-static active array system."

From articles down here the actual FMS part down here is ~5.7B USD, which even with your dollar being what it is, there should be a few billion for weapons and other things on top of that for the entirety of the program, on top of exercising the option for the additional two..

 

[MilEME09]

Vassy Kapelos really goes after the Minister around 15:00 mark. Very good questions.

Defence Minister Bill Blair talks recruitment issues, budget cuts | Power Play with Vassy Kapelos​

Good questions, no answers, and it made him look bad because she called him out for not answering

 

[dapaterson]

From articles down here the actual FMS part down here is ~5.7B USD, which even with your dollar being what it is, there should be a few billion for weapons and other things on top of that for the entirety of the program, on top of exercising the option for the additional two..

Infra will be a big part of that cost as well.

 

[Fabius]

Good questions, no answers, and it made him look bad because she called him out for not answering

All he is capable of is repeating the GoC and Liberal Party narrative, ironic considering the insistence that the P8A purchase is purely because they listened to the RCAF and the CAF and that the CAF and the GoC are fully in lockstep, something I don’t believe simply based on the CDS, Comd RCN and RCAF being so open about the significant issues and challenges faced.

Mind you I would not ever expect any Cdn Government to formally and publicly admit to US pressure.

 

[FSTO]

I'm listening to a union leader who was on Power and Politics, going on about the purchase of the P8. The bullshit that came out of his mouth was breathtaking.

Starts at the 1hr 4 minute mark

Power & Politics | Shows | CBC Gem

Every weekday, Power & Politics guides Canadians through the country's political news, with a regular cast of political panelists and the continuously unfolding drama of the Canadian political scene.

gem.cbc.ca

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm listening to a union leader who was on Power and Politics, going on about the purchase of the P8. The bullshit that came out of his mouth was breathtaking.

Starts at the 1hr 4 minute mark

Power & Politics | Shows | CBC Gem

Every weekday, Power & Politics guides Canadians through the country's political news, with a regular cast of political panelists and the continuously unfolding drama of the Canadian political scene.

gem.cbc.ca

Does his union have anyone working at Boeing Canada or its suppliers?

 

[FSTO]

Does his union have anyone working at Boeing Canada or its suppliers?

I wonder. There has been zero mention from anyone; not from the government, not from the chattering class, nor the unions about the work already being done by Western Canadian firms in building components of the P8 since its inception.

 

[Fabius]

I’m thinking about hypotheticals here but I think this is a good example of another Canadian inefficient use of defence spending in overall terms.
Here on GoC websites the CP 140 Block III achieved IOC in 2014 and FOC in 2019. Block IV IOC according to the same site is winter 2024 and FOC Summer 2024.

Total cost for the upgrade of the CP140 is slated at $1.983 Billion since 1999, I assume most of the cost is in Block III and IV but uncertain.

The P8A saw it’s first production aircraft delivered in 2012. In 2012 India took deliveries of their first P8. The USN proceeded with full rate production in 2014. Australia took delivery of their first P8 in 2016.

Honestly to my it looks like the GoC and the CAF were financially irresponsible in proceeding with the Block III and IV upgrades.

It’s good we finally have decided to buy new aircraft but it would have been better financially to have done so in the 2010-2016 timeframe I think.

 

[dapaterson]

There is something to be said about letting other nations work out the worst of the problems before buying in to a program.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I wonder. There has been zero mention from anyone; not from the government, not from the chattering class, nor the unions about the work already being done by Western Canadian firms in building components of the P8 since its inception.

CDR mentioned it in an article they did earlier this year…

 

[Rifleman62]

Kelowna, BC news. Not building, but:

KF Aerospace will provide maintenance for Canadian military's chosen plane fleet​

PLANE CHOICE BENEFITS KF - Kirk Penton - Nov 30, 2023​

A Canadian government announcement on Thursday that made national news has a significant Kelowna connection.

The government said its military will begin using the Boeing P8-A Poseidon plane to replace the CP-140 Auroras for its various missions. The reason why Kelowna is involved is because KF Aerospace, which is the city’s largest private employer, is a key Boeing partner and will be in charge of the planes’ maintenance.

In fact, KF Aerospace expects to expand its workforce to accommodate the program.

“KF Aerospace’s growing relationship with the Boeing Company has led to more high-quality jobs at our company and increased economic benefits around our operations in British Columbia and Ontario,” KF president and CEO Tracy Medve said in a press release. “This partnership empowers us to increase the skills of our workforce while continuing to establish our company as a leading Canadian aerospace firm and extend our global reach.

“We commend Canada’s strategic decision to acquire the P-8A Poseidon as a vital upgrade for our military, and we are looking forward to supporting this innovative military aircraft at our Canadian maintenance facilities.”

The first P-8 delivery to Canada is expected to take place in 2026.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I’m thinking about hypotheticals here but I think this is a good example of another Canadian inefficient use of defence spending in overall terms.
Here on GoC websites the CP 140 Block III achieved IOC in 2014 and FOC in 2019. Block IV IOC according to the same site is winter 2024 and FOC Summer 2024.

Total cost for the upgrade of the CP140 is slated at $1.983 Billion since 1999, I assume most of the cost is in Block III and IV but uncertain.

The P8A saw it’s first production aircraft delivered in 2012. In 2012 India took deliveries of their first P8. The USN proceeded with full rate production in 2014. Australia took delivery of their first P8 in 2016.

Honestly to my it looks like the GoC and the CAF were financially irresponsible in proceeding with the Block III and IV upgrades.

It’s good we finally have decided to buy new aircraft but it would have been better financially to have done so in the 2010-2016 timeframe I think.

The total upgrade would have started with ASLEP (needed), and AIMP Block 1 followed by 2-4. Block 2 was basic and needed (Nav and comms, no sensor stuff). Block 2 left the Aurora with 70s era tactical systems.

Block 3 was money well spent; we upgraded pretty much the entire IMS and additional items. It was a huge positive change.

Block 4?

CP-140 Aurora fleet modernization and life extension - Canada.ca

The Aurora fleet is Canada’s primary airborne intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance aircraft. It has been modernized with a world-class integrated mission suite with state-of-the-art avionics, communications systems, computer networks, and sensors.

www.canada.ca

 

[FSTO]

CDR mentioned it in an article they did earlier this year…

I saw that. I'd like to see the government admit it though.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I saw that. I'd like to see the government admit it though.

When they weren’t pointing to “easy things”like the info in that CDR issue to offset Bombardier claims, I couldn’t figure out why not.

 

[Fabius]

The total upgrade would have started with ASLEP (needed), and AIMP Block 2/3/4. Block 2 was basic and needed (mostly comms, no sensor stuff).

Block 3 was money well spent. Block 2 was “70s tech” and in Block 3, we upgraded pretty much the entire IMS and additional items.

Block 4?

Out of curiosity would Block 3 have been needed if P8s had started arriving in the RCAF around 2014?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Out of curiosity would Block 3 have been needed if P8s had started arriving in the RCAF around 2014?

No but I’m not confident the 2014 P-8 was as mission capable as Block 3 (from talking to peer USN operators).

I’ve been on ops where Block 3 outperformed USN P-8 ( sub-surface mission stuff ). Overall, though, the P-8 is a more modern, reliable aircraft. We can put all the high tech systems in a 140, but the airframes and engines etc are old and hard to keep flying. If you delay a training mission, no biggy mostly. Start scrubbing missions on Ops, and it’s a big deal.

 

[Good2Golf]

I wonder. There has been zero mention from anyone; not from the government, not from the chattering class, nor the unions about the work already being done by Western Canadian firms in building components of the P8 since its inception.

No different than people not complaining about the billions of dollars through Canadian aerospace suppliers for JSF…