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CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

It must have been wild proposing mounting the radar on top of the cockpit like that.

And are those wireless Bose headphones? I wish we had those instead of the POS David Clarks.

ETA: In the article, there are LCdrs as Sensor Operators. I can feel the AES Op rage from here :ROFLMAO:

“Calculating pension #s…”

Sad Sports Bar GIF by Originals
 
It will be interesting to see how this GoC press release ages…


March 27, 2023

A Request for Information (RFI) was released in February 2022 to obtain information from industry. Following engagements with industry and Canada’s closest allies, the government has determined that the P-8A Poseidon is the only currently available aircraft that meets all of the CMMA operational requirements, namely anti-submarine warfare and C4ISR. This platform is a proven capability that is operated by several of Canada’s defence partners including all of its Five Eyes allies—the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand—as well as Norway, and South Korea. Germany has also recently purchased this platform.
 
I sent a civilian email to an MP on the committee that I know personally to please reconsider the politics involved in Bombardier’s request to be rewarded for their tardiness.
I’m outraged that the conservatives support this stupidity.

If I’m crossing the line in contacting an MP so be it. My cynical intuition about the lack of seriousness in this country is sadly being confirmed once again.
 
From Broadsides Forum

By Dan Middlemiss, 12 November 2023



Appearing before the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence on 7 November 2023, Bombardier CEO Eric Martel once again claimed that the procurement process for the new Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) is “deeply flawed and lacking transparencies” and that there has “clearly” been a violation of proper procedures.

“Too often, our current procurement approach starts too late, is not strategic and results in the acquisition of equipment that is just good enough, rather than the most cutting-edge solution,” Martel said, adding that Bombardier has “a more capable solution” with aircraft that can fly faster, higher and further than the alternative options being considered. “We’re capable, we can do it. We’ve done it for other people and we’re not even being considered? This is a scandal.”

Martel claims the cost to operate the Bombardier aircraft will be 30-40 per cent less than the Boeing P-8 option, and that its planes will be more efficient, burning 40 per cent less fuel. He also stated that the contract would create 22,000 jobs in Canada, because the planes would be produced in Ontario and Quebec.

In addition, on the same day the Premiers of both Ontario and Quebec renewed their earlier July lobbying efforts on behalf of the proposed Bombardier-General Dynamics offering by issuing a joint statement which called on the federal government to allow an open, level playing field procurement process that permits Canadian companies to compete for the CMMA contract.

“Should the federal government maintain its intention to grant a sole-source contract, we’re calling on the House of Commons to request that the Parliamentary Budget Officer review the costs and consequences related to this decision,” the Premiers said in the statement.

“We understand that all governments need to be able to deliver on their priorities while ensuring the best value for taxpayer dollars. Allowing Canadian companies and their workers every opportunity to compete only supports this goal.”

So, OK, once again a Canadian-based defence company wants to have a big, lucrative defence contract remain in Canada. Fair enough, fierce lobbying efforts can be expected when large procurement dollars are at stake. But a closer examination of Bombardier’s claims demonstrates where the real scandal lies.

To put it bluntly, the Bombardier-General Dynamics proposal is no more than a paper aircraft. It does not yet exist. Yet, for the sake of jobs (and of course company profits) Bombardier wants a competition where an actual contender, the P-8, exists and has been operating successfully with many of Canada’s main allies for several years, competes against an as yet to be completely designed, developed and tested aircraft. True, Bombardier’s passenger business jet, the GS 6500, is quite impressive and has done well in sales, but its alleged superior qualities are likely to evaporate once the basic airframe in militarized with mission bay doors, various necessary antennae, and new suites of combat systems. Contrary to the impression it is trying to create, Bombardier has only built a few VIP transport aircraft and the like for other countries; it has not built the type of military multi-mission (including ASW) combat aircraft that DND is looking for.

Canada’s venerable CP-140 fleet needs replacing now, not years down the road when Bombardier and company finally develop a prototype and get it properly tested and certified to military standards. The P-8 is a known quantity, is fully interoperable with comparable P-8 fleets around the world, and its life cycle costs are well established. Moreover, Boeing, the P-8 manufacturer, has extensive supply chain links to many prominent defence and civilian industry firms in Canada.

There are certainly occasions when Ottawa’s contract competition and build-in-Canada procurement provisions make sense, This is not one of them, especially when a well-proven aircraft is readily available. If Canada did cave in under the lobbying pressure being exerted by Bombardier, then the CAF and Ottawa would be saddled with yet another orphan platform (remember the same sort of arguments being made for the CC-295 Kingfisher SAR aircraft?) that will find few if any takers elsewhere.

Let’s get on with the job and allow Ottawa to make a sensible – and obvious – decision for the P-8.
 
What I want to see os folkd calling ot the fact that Bombardier had the oportunity to Bid - and did not. The fact their bid would have been discarded as it is as non-existent as their current offering is being glossed over (outside of here).
 
What I want to see os folkd calling ot the fact that Bombardier had the oportunity to Bid - and did not. The fact their bid would have been discarded as it is as non-existent as their current offering is being glossed over (outside of here).

This. Come on GoC; grow a set.

Let’s have all these “Trudeau supported news companies” all request a walk thru of this Bombardier aircraft with a camera person.
 
Appearing before the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence on 7 November 2023, Bombardier CEO Eric Martel once again claimed that the procurement process for the new Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) is “deeply flawed and lacking transparencies” and that there has “clearly” been a violation of proper procedures.

“Too often, our current procurement approach starts too late, is not strategic and results in the acquisition of equipment that is just good enough, rather than the most cutting-edge solution,” Martel said, adding that Bombardier has “a more capable solution” with aircraft that can fly faster, higher and further than the alternative options being considered. “We’re capable, we can do it. We’ve done it for other people and we’re not even being considered? This is a scandal.”
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I think JT is petty. And the family and Quebec Inc. are mad. The Liberal party could use some full paperbags right about now too.

But mainly just petty.
I don’t know about Québec inc, but Bombardier for sure. Paul-Armand must kick and dance in is coffin. And frankly, I find your comment about him being pretty offensive for the really pretty one 😜 🍻

t all revolves around votes, mon grand…c’est tout à propos des votes! 😉

I don’t even know if people care that much. J’.tais un peu, juste un peu sarcastique 🫢
 
A win for Bombardier


A bigger win for Boeing


A note of caution from the RAF

 
I wonder if Bombardier still owned the C series/A220 if they would be pushing that airframe for the project or if Airbus would do so. An open competition for developmental airplanes has lots of possibilities. After the Cyclone you would think we would have banned ourselves from engaging in such things. Not counting shipbuilding obviously :D
 
I wonder if Bombardier still owned the C series/A220 if they would be pushing that airframe for the project or if Airbus would do so. An open competition for developmental airplanes has lots of possibilities. After the Cyclone you would think we would have banned ourselves from engaging in such things. Not counting shipbuilding obviously :D
It would have been quite interesting to see if Airbus offered the C series in that competition 😄
 
It would have been quite interesting to see if Airbus offered the C series in that competition 😄

I always thought the pitch would be co-development of the A220 as a MPA with France. As they don't want to buy US and were looking to develop with Germany.
 
Development for larger platforms and the CAF budget (and lack of future planning) make it a terrible idea
 
Hey, we could most certainly join a developmental MPA program with France on the A220 with Bombardier and Airbus along with General Dynamics.
Take 10 years to develop, insist we have no obligation to buy, yell that we need to have a fly off with someone and something.
Sounds like a great plan! 😎
 
If Bombardier was smart they would let the P8 procurement go through with out contest. Design their Maritime Aircraft and market it with smaller countries.
If they can build a more cost effective version with the same or similar capacity as the P8 then they could market their platform with DFO, Coast Guard/RCMP even the Military in the near future. Having the extra capacity for offensive and Defensive stores can make it more attractive for the Cdn Gov to buy as a multi mission Aircraft.
The ball in in Bombardiers corner to do the right thing. This project did not come out of no where. But their protest did.
Bombardier knows that they are only competitive for Canadian contracts due to domestic politics, marketing a MPA similar to what they have pitched has already been tried and it failed horribly. Saab pitched their 'Swordfish' concept around 2017~, a pretty conservative Bombardier Global 6000 modification which attempted to be exported abroad to just such a market. They received seemingly no serious interest and by late 2018, Saab had shelved the concept entirely. There is seemingly little want abroad for a cheaper and less capable MPA currently, Bombardier on their own would be in an even worse scenario compared to a more capable company like Saab.
 
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