CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[Good2Golf]

My point is that if we were choose a different MPA than what the US Government wants, there might be repercussions. NORAD and all.

Are you assuming we won’t buy both?

USAF flies Bombardier E-11 BACN and other uses like ARTEMIS, so it’s not foreign to them.

 

[KevinB]

My point is that if we were choose a different MPA than what the US Government wants, there might be repercussions. NORAD and all.

Wait you think you got a choice?

P-8’s are coming, the only question is what markings do they have when over Canadian airspace…

 

[Good2Golf]

Oh heck, let’s play CMA poker…

I’m in for:

10 P-8
8 P-6

 

[Dana381]

Don't say we didn't warn you...


So...has a flex bay for internal weapons storage. Wasn't the lack of internal weapons bays one of the major strikes against the Swordfish?

Not an in service platform? Type 26 enters the chat...

Excuse my ignorance, if it can drop torps and sonobuoys and find and track subs than why would it be a bad buy? The planes size dosen't always denote capability.

" CP-140M Aurora: Long-range maritime reconnaissance, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft for the Canadian Forces. Based on the P-3C Orion airframe, but mounts the more advanced electronics suite of the Lockheed S-3 Viking; 18 built" Quote from Wiki.

The S-3 Viking is a much smaller plane than the P-3 but had a better electronics suite. Maybe the P-6 will outdo a P-8. After all the P-8 is 14 years old, an eternity in the electronics realm.

 

[dapaterson]

Are you assuming we won’t buy both?

USAF flies Bombardier E-11 BACN and other uses like ARTEMIS, so it’s not foreign to them.

Mmm... BACN...

 

[KevinB]

Excuse my ignorance, if it can drop torps and sonobuoys and find and track subs than why would it be a bad buy? The planes size doesn’t always denote capability.

No but just maybe the CAF wouldn’t be so ducking stupid to buy an orphan micro fleet again.

" CP-140M Aurora: Long-range maritime reconnaissance, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft for the Canadian Forces. Based on the P-3C Orion airframe, but mounts the more advanced electronics suite of the Lockheed S-3 Viking; 18 built" Quote from Wiki.

The S-3 Viking is a much smaller plane than the P-3 but had a better electronics suite. Maybe the P-6 will outdo a P-8. After all the P-8 is 14 years old, an eternity in the electronics realm.

Upgrades can be done much easier on the P-8, than older aircraft, as it was configured to allow for that.

The P-6 is a theoretical framework at this point. Right now it mounts Jack and Shit.

I mean what could go wrong buying a new unproven design for a relatively puny number of aircraft, the Cyclone is a beacon of effectiveness and efficiency right?

 

[GR66]

Excuse my ignorance, if it can drop torps and sonobuoys and find and track subs than why would it be a bad buy? The planes size dosen't always denote capability.

" CP-140M Aurora: Long-range maritime reconnaissance, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft for the Canadian Forces. Based on the P-3C Orion airframe, but mounts the more advanced electronics suite of the Lockheed S-3 Viking; 18 built" Quote from Wiki.

The S-3 Viking is a much smaller plane than the P-3 but had a better electronics suite. Maybe the P-6 will outdo a P-8. After all the P-8 is 14 years old, an eternity in the electronics realm.

I think the point is that you'd be buying something that isn't already developed, tested and proven and only used by us rather than something that is already in use and proven and used in significant numbers by almost all of our allies which provides a great deal of potential shared support.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Reading the buy and sell I didn’t think the P-8 would fit.

So. Let’s recap:

• USN replace P3 with P8;
• RAAF replace P3 with P8;
• RNZAF replace P3 with P8;
• RNoAF replace P3 with P8;
• RAF bring back MPAs, rather than build their own like they had with the Nimrod, they…buy a P8 fleet.

So why would it not be a right fit for the RCAF which is looking to replace a fleet of Canadianized P8? Before you mention the size of Canada, look at the size of Australia and the location of Adelaide…and then remember the P8 is doing AAR.

I’m genuinely curious why the P8 isn’t a good fit in your mind.

 

[dapaterson]

I mean what could go wrong buying a new unproven design for a relatively puny number of aircraft, the Cyclone is a beacon of effectiveness and efficiency right?

Number one we're talking fixed wing, not rotary wing, so number two, it's the Kingfisher that's a beacon of effectiveness and efficiency.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My point is that if we were choose a different MPA than what the US Government wants, there might be repercussions. NORAD and all.

Let me set this straight; the US isn’t the only stakeholder that wants a P-8 fleet on RCAF Wings.

 

[dapaterson]

I’m genuinely curious why the P8 isn’t a good fit in your mind.

To be fair, he was suggesting that his read of the RFI on Buy and Sell would disqualify the P8, not that it wasn't a good fit.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

To be fair, he was suggesting that his read of the RFI on Buy and Sell would disqualify the P8, not that it wasn't a good fit.

he said “not a good fit”…unless I’m missing a post somewhere in this…

 

[Good2Golf]

Come on folks, stop standing on the sidelines!

Who’s in on CMA poker?

Opening wager is 10 P-8s and 8 P-6s…

Don’t be shy!

 

[MTShaw]

USN replace P3 with P8;

• RAAF replace P3 with P8;
• RNZAF replace P3 with P8;
• RNoAF replace P3 with P8;
• RAF bring back MPAs, rather than build their own like they had with the Nimrod, they…but a P8 fleet.

Those were not criteria mentioned in the buy and sell…..

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public/2022/02/10/40e474721d25ec41e82e2941aa3754f5/canadian_multi-mission_aircraft_project_request_for_information_02.10.2022.pdf

 

[suffolkowner]

not sure going with the P-6 is a good move or something I would be in favour of but then I didnt realize it was even an option. How does it compare on time on station, endurance, range, payload, sensors? I could see an ISR suite like the already developed solutions so that the P8 could concentrate on ASW/ASuW. Back to the question of affording different platforms over limited techs/pilots. i would think a 6500 derivative would be cheaper than a P8 to operate but is it really? so....

15 P8
6 Global Express 6500 ISR

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Excuse my ignorance, if it can drop torps and sonobuoys and find and track subs than why would it be a bad buy? The planes size dosen't always denote capability.

Dropping is the easy part; having the ability to carry/take off with heavy search and kill store loads, and large fuel tanks that are full is important.
Ask yourself why all the other Allied air forces I've mentioned earlier are not flying 6500-based MPAs. Why did the SAAB Swordfish not succeed while P-8 did?

I'll mention common parts and systems; I've been on deployed dets where we had to evac for major Wx events, and the Aussi and Kiwi Maint Dets saved our bacon as our Maint kit hadn't mad it on the C-17 before. Go with a "Canada only fleet" and that doesn't exist.

" CP-140M Aurora: Long-range maritime reconnaissance, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft for the Canadian Forces. Based on the P-3C Orion airframe, but mounts the more advanced electronics suite of the Lockheed S-3 Viking; 18 built" Quote from Wiki.

Uhh...the Block 3 and 4 Aurora is fairly far past the S-3 mission system days. I don't want to sound conceited but...I like to think my Aurora knowledge is more reputable than Wiki. Maybe not...hmm.

The S-3 Viking is a much smaller plane than the P-3 but had a better electronics suite. Maybe the P-6 will outdo a P-8. After all the P-8 is 14 years old, an eternity in the electronics realm.

It didn't have a "better" electronics suite. It had a different one...but that was...decades ago, at least. P-3C was fairly modern; and used by folks who replaced it with P-8. I'll say this; AIMP isn't without it's challenges and failures.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Those were not criteria mentioned in the buy and sell…..

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public/2022/02/10/40e474721d25ec41e82e2941aa3754f5/canadian_multi-mission_aircraft_project_request_for_information_02.10.2022.pdf

Right so if you're going to try to speak the lingo, take a look at the HLMRs and tell me which one the P-8 is deficient in. I can tell you which ones the P-6 is deficient in. ALL of them, because it's a model.

Next, take a look at para 5 of the RFI you posted above (that i've posted several times in the thread so far in hopes people would read the HLMRs, at least). That date is well in the rear view mirror...and I've seen no indication of changes to the RFI to date.

 

[Good2Golf]

Ask yourself why all the other Allied air forces I've mentioned earlier are not flying 6500-based MPAs. Why did the SAAB Swordfish not succeed while P-8 did?

So we’ve got 10xP8+8xP6 and 15xP8+6xP6…I’ll put you in for, say 18xP8+2xP6 for coastal PTTs, EITS?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So we’ve got 10xP8+8xP6 and 15xP8+6xP6…I’ll put you in for, say 18xP8+2xP6 for coastal PTTs, EITS?

I'll take that square, sure.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No but just maybe the CAF wouldn’t be so ducking stupid to buy an orphan micro fleet again.

Dammit...now you're REALLY jinxed us. My soul cries in advance...lol.

The P-6 is a theoretical framework at this point. Right now it mounts Jack and Shit.

ROFL

I mean what could go wrong buying a new unproven design for a relatively puny number of aircraft, the Cyclone is a beacon of effectiveness and efficiency right?

More soul crying...