Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]

[Jarnhamar]

Apples and oranges indeed, but what one trains for on ops is different (generally) from training for the street.  I don't have any reservations to slot the enemy who directly or indirectly is trying to harm myself or others, but I can't pull out a hunting rifle and 'close with and destroy' the kid vandalizing property, or the drunk who doesn't want to leave.  Right?

I don't really understand where your going with this my friend?  I can't drive my truck into someone giving me the finger....?


Also, if I recall correctly, someone's training in martial arts cannot be held against them in a case of self-defense/causing assault?
Wether i use the touch of death quivering palm attack being trained in kung-fu for 13 years, or i just bash someone on the head with a rock and put them in a comma, I'm just as accountable.

 

[Kal]

Let's throw this one out there.  A 5'2", 100lbs female that's balling her eyes out because she's having a bad day, she pull's a knife to get you to step off.  Do you slot her? 

A young teenage boy of 5'6" and 130 lbs, that's wants to scare people and holds and waves his 2" knife by two fingers saying non challantly "I cut you man, I cut you"  Do you kill him?

Working security in the emergency dept. of a hospital, the drunk guy is cut open already and needs medical attention comes in, thrashes around and pulls of his swiss army knife.  Kill him?

A friend or family member that has a little too much to drink and gets a little too wild, or suffers from emotional instability breaks a bottle open or grabs the steak knife, do you maim and/or kill them?

Doing a one-on-one with a psych. patient in the mental health facility, pulls a improvised edged weapon.  Do you kill them?

Now, I'm 6'1" and 225ish, if I go to court over any of these, how do the jurors see it?  I work in security, what are my liabilities.  Like I said though, if someone really does want to hurt or kill me and I am morally and legally able to kill or maim them, then I will.  No, none of us are mind readers, will at least I'm not, but there are tells (verbal and physical) that people have that elude to what their and your situation is.

By the way, if you answered no to any of the above questions, then you must agree that killing someone just because they pull a weapon is not enough to kill them.

 

[bojangles]

I'd still prefer a good old fashioned slogging match in a boxing ring, and I've done a few martial arts (Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Bagua-Zhang, Kendo)

Any other boxers here? Nothing quite like the sweet science when it comes to a brawl.

Che,

I am an amateur boxer. I have been boxing since 1995, and previous to that I have obtained my 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate. My 1st dan in Judo. I have been in martial arts since 14 yrs of age and in 95, decided to try a change of pace, hence taking up boxing. After reading all of these posts and trying hard to restrain myself from replying on many of them, all I can say is that...no martial art is "the best" or "most effective". They all have thier strong and weak points.
Also, it all depends on the situation you are in. If I am in a stand up close ranged fight, my boxing skills are what is going to help me, the minute this fight goes to the ground, screw the boxing, I am going to use Jiu jitsu and judo techniques. Take what works from each and everything that is offered by ALL martial arts and you will be the best fighter you can be.

Bojangles

 

[Kal]

I don't really understand where your going with this my friend?  I can't drive my truck into someone giving me the finger....?

Also, if I recall correctly, someone's training in martial arts cannot be held against them in a case of self-defense/causing assault?
Wether i use the touch of death quivering palm attack being trained in kung-fu for 13 years, or i just bash someone on the head with a rock and put them in a comma, I'm just as accountable.

I'm just saying that, what one's training of force for an op is going to be different for the street, and they usually can't be the same.  As to the legalities, sure the law says it can't be held against them, but what does the judge or jurors think when they hear that you were fighting in self-defence and you hit them in the head with the stick lying on the ground or that you are an expert martial artist with 20 plus years of experience that went to the seminar teaching the death touch and you happen to use it.  In all your martial arts experience you weren't able to put that person out without killing them.  Or that you're just a wacko?

 

[Kal]

After reading all of these posts and trying hard to restrain myself from replying on many of them, all I can say is that...no martial art is "the best" or "most effective". They all have thier strong and weak points.
Also, it all depends on the situation you are in. If I am in a stand up close ranged fight, my boxing skills are what is going to help me, the minute this fight goes to the ground, screw the boxing, I am going to use Jiu jitsu and judo techniques. Take what works from each and everything that is offered by ALL martial arts and you will be the best fighter you can be.

Bojangles

Words of wisdom from Bojangles

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I also fail to see how most of this stuff is going to help you when your all geared up with your TV, body armour including plates, full ammo load out, weapons, helmet etc. Let's hope it's also not during winter ops while your wearing your snowshoes. :

 

[Franko]

  I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.   I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it.  

I'm glad we at least agree on one thing.....

But according to you I did the wrong thing. I defended myself to the point of immobilising and stopping the fight by rendering an opponent unconcious....the calling the cops and an amulance on top of that.....

Obviuosly you've never been in that sort of situation....and if you are 6' 4 as you said you are....

Regards

 

[Fusaki]

Insert Quote
I also fail to see how most of this stuff is going to help you when your all geared up with your TV, body armour including plates, full ammo load out, weapons, helmet etc. Let's hope it's also not during winter ops while your wearing your snowshoes.

Roger that

I have a bit of experience in Mauy Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jutsu, and have spent a reasonable amount of time in Full Fighting Order. The fact of the matter is that there is a HUGE difference between martial arts fighting, street fighting, and battlefield fighting. Even particularly brutal forms of No Holds Barred/Vale Tudo/Mixed Martial Arts tournaments do not factor in your street opponent's buddies and the beer bottles they're going to swing at you. Throw in ballistic plates, weapon, a weeks worth of IMPs, and narrow hallways of a FIBUA environment and your traditional martial arts won't help one bit.

 

[Kal]

I'm glad we at least agree on one thing.....
But according to you I did the wrong thing. I defended myself to the point of immobilising and stopping the fight by rendering an opponent unconcious....the calling the cops and an amulance on top of that.....
Obviuosly you've never been in that sort of situation....and if you are 6' 4 as you said you are....
Regards

    As I said before, I didn't look into the situation and the person before expressing my opinion.  I sometimes tend view subjects and situations through my eyes and training.  What you did wasn't wrong for you, but it may be for some others.  With my type of training and experience, I would have done something different than breaking a limb.  As you said I have never been in a situation like that, well you're right, and I never want to be, nor do I want anyone I know to be there.  However, I have had to use my training for the job I am currently in.  I never said I was 6'4, it was 6'1, but I'm not really sure why you included that in your arguement.  I merely said it because it I go to court over something, the judge and/or jury will look at my size as a factor, either positive or negative.

 

[Franko]

Ahhhhh seen. 

Regards

 

[downinOZ]

Bringing back an old thread...again

One of the best things that martial arts does teach is confidence in one's own body.  Admittedly, that can be a setback in some cases.  As a system of fighting, we were given a day-long demo by a Vancouver police officer - ex Patricia.  The system was called Defendo, and was developed with the Canadian Army in mind - wearing boots, greens, helmet, and webbing.  Painfully, I would support it as an extremely effective, easily learnt, and exciting system. 

As an engineer instructor, I remember specifically telling several groups of candidates that their martial arts don't matter at all.  In that slightly immature phase of life, that might have been very true, simply based on self-confidence and drive to be the toughest.  However, retrospectively, the skills someone with 1 year of current martial arts training may have over someone with NO martial arts training is definitely not something really worth arguing over.  I currently am training in a karate style simply for fitness, and would agree that muscle memory is the...only point. 

Anyone heard of SCARS?

 

[Kal]

Yeah, I've heard of SCARS, it's all marketing and from I've been told by guys that have actually been to the seminars for it, it's not even that effective.  There is a high reliance on pressure point tactics that, I feel, have no place in 'combat'.  Try to tap someone three times in the arm and then pinch their elbow will work only on someone that knows about the system.  I have a friend, that went t a seminar and he said he didn't feel a thing and it just pissed him off.  Trying the put an arm-bar while on the ground is stupid, all the enemy has to do is pull another and it get's ugly way fast.  Think about, most martial arts are taught from a sporting aspect which is IMO garbage for street or combat fighting.  So I'm on the ground, and trying to do an arm-bar, I'm using both my hands and arms and legs trying to sink this 'submission' while he still has three limbs to fight back with?  Then his buddy/s come to soccer ball kick you in the head while you're too focued on the arm-bar.  Make any sense?  Now I'm all for joint locks/cranks if youre working in some type of low intensity security position, but for street and combat survival, instead of trying to subdue, why not just break the arm,wrist,knee, what have you. 

    I've never actually seen Defendo done in person, but from the video clips off their site, it looks like a good system.  As someone said earlier in this thread, in street fights the matial arts seems to go to sh*t.  It's not that the technique is bad, but how the technique is taught, along with the mindset to drop someone if needed.  For true combat/street effectiveness, it has to be brutally and violently effective with a high enphasis on striking and ending the fight quickly and with the most possible damage to the enemy and dont forget all the stuff 'outlawed' in martial arts tournaments should be used.

Check out www.hockscqc.com  I'm currently an intructor for several of the fields he teaches and would like to see something like that incorporated in a CF hand-to-hand system.  IMHO

 

[Hunter911]

Personally i know a couple guys from here in halifax who have got their hand to hand instructers courses. I asked them the same thing when i was talking to them, and they said that "when your out in the field the last thing you want to be thinking about is whats the right way to kick a guy when hes comming at you with a knife. Its best to stab him anyway" They also said hand to hand was a good skill to have just incase anyway.

 

[Kal]

Personally i know a couple guys from here in halifax who have got their hand to hand instructers courses. I asked them the same thing when i was talking to them, and they said that "when your out in the field the last thing you want to be thinking about is whats the right way to kick a guy when hes comming at you with a knife. Its best to stab him anyway" They also said hand to hand was a good skill to have just incase anyway.

    It's funny you should bring up that point.  I have a friend who's father was a former member of our ERT team.  She said, that he would come home and tell them stories how he would kick a knife out of someones hand.  :  I has to be one of the dumbest things to do.  If someone is intent on hurtng you, then they will if you practice tactics such as that.  It's also interesting that the other day I was playing with my mom and she was holding one of my practice knives.  I pretended to kick it out of her hand and she simulated cutting my ankle/leg, and she doesn't have any training... 

    Hand-to-hand and hand-to-knife techniques also have to be different, you can't do the same set of tactics for the two different senarios.  I sometimes train with some guys that go to the Combat Hapkido classes and they are not taught a lot of counter-knife stuff.  As soon I pull out of trainer knife, they end up getting stabs and slashed, in vital areas mind you, a dozen times because they think that using a hand2hand technique is the same for a knife attack...

 

[JBP]

However, retrospectively, the skills someone with 1 year of current martial arts training may have over someone with NO martial arts training is definitely not something really worth arguing over.  I currently am training in a karate style simply for fitness, and would agree that muscle memory is the...only point. 

Anyone heard of SCARS?

No, it's probably the only "point" for you. Although you're mostly correct that someone with about 1 yr of training isn't TOO much better equipped than someone who is naturally a good fighter by nature, someone with a few more years (say 3+) can be quite a difficult person to attack if they're used to full-speed combat and they're not training in some competition based martial arts...

The blackbelts in my type of martial arts could quite literally beat someone to pieces, they could kill somebody easily. I'm a green belt (advanced mid-level) and I can hold my own decently but when I spar one of them, it doesn't take long for them to take me out. Sometimes quite easily. Most of the blackbelts mind you have been practicing for... Give or take, 3-5 years minimum, with many of them competition winners and having been in for 7-10 years also.

Although there is no single great "end-all-be-all" martial art, if you want to seriously learn to defend yourself from an attacker(s), I would suggest any "traditional" martial art from Japan or China mainland. The older the better, the ancient arts were designed for practical use, not competition. If you get my point...

Joe

 

[Kal]

No, it's probably the only "point" for you. Although you're mostly correct that someone with about 1 yr of training isn't TOO much better equipped than someone who is naturally a good fighter by nature, someone with a few more years (say 3+) can be quite a difficult person to attack if they're used to full-speed combat and they're not training in some competition based martial arts...

     It depends on the amount of training time put in during each training session, per week, month, year.   If one trains once a week for 2 hours, compared to the same individual who trains 5 times a week for 4 hours, all things else being the same, who would be more effective?  

The blackbelts in my type of martial arts could quite literally beat someone to pieces, they could kill somebody easily. I'm a green belt (advanced mid-level) and I can hold my own decently but when I spar one of them, it doesn't take long for them to take me out. Sometimes quite easily. Most of the blackbelts mind you have been practicing for... Give or take, 3-5 years minimum, with many of them competition winners and having been in for 7-10 years also.

     This partly goes back to the pyschology of the fight, sparring is not a good indicator of actual fighting capability.   If going into a fight and one's thinking is that, well he's a blackbelt, he must be deadly and I'm only a yellow belt all he has to do is throw a good punch and I'm done, well you're probably right and he will most likely beat you.   However, if I am thinking, "the first time that arm is coming up I'm going to break it and rip it off, guage his eyes and slam his head off the pavement several times" and actually intent on doing it, you may very well do it.   Fighting is about 80% psycological and 20% physical skill and atributes.   Remember, in competition, is nothing near what actual fighting/combat is.   One knows that their opponent can and can't do and where they can and can't hit and has a choice if they want to be there and knows that if it gets too bad the ref will stop it and there is no real risk of serious injury or death.   Here's your homework Joe, next time you have to spar a blackbelt, get it in your mind that you will destroy them and that you wont let them have the chance of them beating you, and go to work on them in the most devasting fashion.   Then report back to us how it went.

Although there is no single great "end-all-be-all" martial art, if you want to seriously learn to defend yourself from an attacker(s), I would suggest any "traditional" martial art from Japan or China mainland. The older the better, the ancient arts were designed for practical use, not competition. If you get my point...

     Not neccessarily so, many traditional forms were developed do to the culture and environment of the time and are not neccessarily the way one will be fighting in today's times.   Many Japanese styles were developed for/from the kneeing position because their culture at the time they kneeled all the time.   It was also an insult to punch someone in the face, they would only punch to the body and combat on the battlefiend was one-on-one with someone of the same rank and status as yourself.   Today people will do anything to win a fight and will sometimes involve multiple attackers, the only reason I like 'traditional' forms is that it was taught that the techniques and tactics were going to be used for war and they trained the mind to act accordingly...

 

[sigtech]

As with anything the best way to defend yourself is K.I.S.S Keep it simple stupid.
Teach someone to do a long drawn out Kata then brake it down and teach them step by step by step , they get out on the street and will get killed, unless they have been training for years and years

Teach someone a good basic punch and a good basic low kick then teach them to throw them with intent and they will be able to defend them self's. Look at Krav Maga simple fast mean and it works.

 

[Embarkcuis]

Hi all,
I’m a CF hopeful, and I was wondering would any non-lethal close combat expertise come in handy in a peace keeping mission?  I’m very surprise that the Canadian Military does not offers its GI s more unarmed combat training, I can’t help but think if I were to join the army, that the training just wouldn’t be enough to satisfy me. 

Would the majority of you agree that I ought to take some Martial Art training before I join the force?  Or should I just rely on that trusty rifle that CF will supply me once I get there?  Are the military even deadly without the guns?  Could anyone of you defend yourself comfortably if your weapon say… got jam or something and you are left to resort to your martial prowess?  What happen if you got captured, and your only way out was to take someone out with your bare hands and take his weapon that way?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Embarkcuis,

Please go back and read this thread for your answers. While your in reading mode, please peruse the guidelines, in their entirety, also.

Welcome to Army.ca

 

[MacKenzie1NSH]

Throw in ballistic plates, weapon, a weeks worth of IMPs, and narrow hallways of a FIBUA environment and your traditional martial arts won't help one bit.

Not at all, you would be lucky to get a few punches off at them, let alone a whole offensive of martial arts