Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]

[Sh0rtbUs]

I was sure that there wasnt much covered on this topic as I was fairly familiar with this thread. Sadly, I assumed it stayed on track (and we all know what assume means). Seems its veered towards my topic, so rather than delete my now pointless topic, I'll post the link here. Feel free to reply to either this thread, or my own. I'll be monitoring both

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27454.0.html

Sorry for the bandwidth wastage :

 

[Gouki]

Getting back to the subject at hand.....

I am currently taking Jiu Jitsu and let me tell all you types out there that think Tae Kwon do is the be all end all martial art.

After 4 months of taking classes 3 times a week lasting 2 hours on average I had a chance of taking on a guy who was a supposed black belt outside of a bar....

I was on him so fast and inside his space he didn't have a chance. After slaming him to the ground and snapping a joint he gave up in a hurry...especially when I went for the strangle, eyes rolling in his sockets.

Fighting usually gets to the ground REAL fast. All the swinging limbs in Tae Kwon Do do is give up a lever to break, thustly taking it to the ground where the real damage happens.

I agree with you bigtime.

I am currently taking Jiujitsu myself. Forgive the butchering of this name, but I think it's something like "booei-jin ryu jiujitsu" - I hope someone recognizes this and says what the correct name is.

Anyhow, I have been going as often as I can, for the last month. I practice it quite a lot as I love grappling/ground fighting and Jiujitsu (this style at least) combines both standing holds (like a wrist lock or the hip throw) with ground fighting techniques so perfectly. TKD, while probably quite good in the pure Korean style, isn't terribly spectacular over here. My friend is a black belt and in all honesty, I am more than convinced I could catch him in a hold and take him down and ground and pound. Not to say TKD is worthless, some of it's kicks are quite effective. However BS moves like the 540 kick are flash moves only and that is totally irrelevent in a true fight. To put it simply, his TKD would be worthless once I shoot him (not with a gun...) and gain dominance over him and proceed to mangle his limbs or even something simple like a collar choke would disable him as he has no experience at all with that stuff.

Someone also asked about muay thai. I took muay thai for 9 months, twice a week for 1 1/2 each night. It impressed me beyond all words. Muay thai is a vicious, brutal martial art with a rich cultural and spiritual aspect to it. I love elbows and knees, knees in particular. Not much has scared me more than being caught in a tight muay thai clinch and knowing that those knees are going to shot at you any second. The conditioning is supreme and the moves are not-flashy. Everything you learn in muay thai can be applied in a street fight. Muay thai has left such a mark on me that I have plans to travel to either Rawai muay thai camp or Kiat Busaba in Thailand and learn it in its pure form, and hopefully have a Buddhist monk bless my mongkhon.

My adivce? Take muay thai, if you can.

 

[a_majoor]

Going through all these threads, I noticed no one has mentioned the potential effects of body armour and equipment (webbing/tac vests) on the martial artist. Certainly it would make both offensive and defensive moves difficult by restricting the range of motion, although the "defender" might decide to let the armour do some of the work.

I will admit I do not know all of these arts mentioned above, being only familier with Shotokan Karate and Aikido, but I would only attempt Aikido takedowns if I was kitted out and someone attacked me, since I would be less likely to get tangled up in my kit. (Of course, with my kit, I have several options, like using my helmet as an improvised bludgeon)

 

[Kal]

a-majoor - your comments are spot on.  What many martial artists fail to realize is that, what works perfectly in the dojo, on a padded floor while wearing a gi (martials arts uniform) doesn't always work so great on the side of a mountain or on the stairs in a house while wearing combat boots and 100lbs of kit. 

As to say tae kwon do is useless, well that's just plain ignorance.  a friend of mine who has a black belt in this style and who also practises Brazillian JJ stumbled upon an old TKD book 20 odd years ago, and it had many of the same techniques and ground fighting as BJJ does.  The problem with modern day martial arts is that generally it's too sport/art oriented and it's original purpose is lost.  Case in point, why is it when you go to some martial arts clubs you do the whole kick and punch thing and work all your forms and techniques for 1.5 hours then for 15 minutes at the end of the class you practise 'self-defence'?  Isn't all suppossed to be self-defence?  I don't mean to say martial arts is useless, but if it is to be practised for self-defence or combat, train like like it.  I was attending a hand-to-hand combat seminar a couple years ago and we had this one woman who came out and asked what she should wear.  One of the instructors told her, her street clothes, and she was floored by the response the said she never thought to train that way, seeing as it would make the most sense anyways.  yeah she was a black belt, too...... 

To say something like BJJ is the best though, isn't quite right either.  i forget which Gracie said it, but he said when asked how he felt BJJ has evolved and how everyone is doing it, that he was disappointed that only the sport application was being practised, and that you have black belts in BJJ that have no idea of the practical or weapons part of it......

 

[Kal]

Oh forgot one thing.

Franco - I bet you feel really good about screwing someones limb and life up now by "snapping" it, since it was so cool of you to do such a thing for no real good reason other than your ego and to tell the story to your buddies.  You're the exact type of person who shouldn't be taught such techniques, and if you ever stepped into a real seminar or class with grown-ups, you would be tossed in a heart beat....

 

[Gouki]

I see what you're saying Kal.

While muay thai in Thailand has (for the most part .. except maybe Fairtex) retained its traditions and spiritual aspects that make muay thai a martial art and not some other sport ... here in north america, the martial art is going down a path I'm not overly fond of.

When I went to see a fight night in muay thai in Winnipeg, there were near topless girls everywhere, alcohol flowing throughout the entire place, guys coming out of the lockerroom as if it was WWE (god I hate the WWE) talking smack and making these retarded "badass" gestures (I swear they all had tourette syndrome) and to top it off a really crappy recording of the ram muay music played during the Canada vs America (OOH HOW ORIGINAL AND EXCITING) final match.

It just saddens me to see muay thai degraded in such a way over here.

 

[JBP]

It's been mentioned, but remains true nontheless: If you're down to just your dukes and Timmy Talibunny without his buddy Kalishnokov, you're prolly gonna get ****ed up bad. But if you're going down, go down hard. Maximum speed, brutal violence, and unrestrained agression. Take any opening you can and be prepared to get hurt.

On civvy side, the best MMA is Avoid-Fu. Be smart and stay outta situation that could go bad. Like don't get dead just because Snake and Ox asked you to stop dancing with their old ladies, and you're drunk enough to take exception, and situationally unaware enough to remember you're in a biker bar full of Snake and Ox's buddies. If that fails and you wind up in the mix, then refer back to speed, violence, agression... you never know what a yahoo who's out looking for a fight might be packing. Better tried by twelve, than buried by six, simply because you were worried about Johnny Law when you should have been concerned with the shiv your opponent was carrying and stuck you with after you decided to walk away. If you can't avoid the fight or won't avoid it, then break the skid and take what comes.

After reading through a good portion of this thread, THIS here is the best advice I've seen yet! I'm no black belt but I've been in Butokukai Goju-Ryu traditional karate for almost 3 yrs and the people who win the tournaments are the one's who don't use the fancy crap like the "540 Lightning Back kick".... Etc.... As one saying goes, "Keep it simple stupid!"... Use the most effective and simple moves with brute force. As Marauder said above, maximum speed, brutal violence and unrestrained aggression will show through.

Also initiative IS a big factor, first person to land a decent punch or kick is many times last person left standing. I know this from having been in many fights myself, USE BOTH FISTS! Don't punch with just 1, use every availible weapon to you.

NO MARTIAL ART is the "end all be all" or the "best" one... They are all good, just different and used for different applications. As long as you excel in any type of martial art and have been in a couple fights you could probably handle your own against an equal opponent with similar training IF.... IF... You maximize your aggressive instincts and don't back down. Don't be afraid to smash some guy in the face and bust his cheekbone or jaw. Attitude is everything.

My Sensei always goes on about 3 levels of combat:

1.) Being able to avoid/block an attack
2.) Being able to avoid/block and attack and simultanously counter-attack
3.) Not be there in the first place - The ultimate defence

Our motto is "Peace over Power" even though it's a traditional ancient Okinawan/Japanese martial art.

Joe

 

[Kal]

Hey, just wanted to appologize to all and any that may have felt burned or disrespected by what I said.  I stand by what I said, but didn't go about saying it properly.  Just have seen in the past a few people gotten seriously injured for no good reason and the comments made, got me a little hot. 

 

[Slim]

The Army does have a hand to hand combat course, to take it, you must be either a Infanteer, or a MP.

Hey all

Just wanted to clear this issue up. I don't think that the above statement is the truth.

In the Int Branch I and several others had taken the course in UC that leads to the instructors course, which our CO of the time helped develop.

I know that other trades as well have taken this program.

As for the MP's IT would be something entirely different that they have taken as a military combat art and a police joint-restrain system would be years apart in terms of application, level of force being used and the amount of force being applied, as well as very different techniques. If you took a military system into a court of law and told the Judge that you'd used it to "bring someone to a halt" as it were you would almost certainly be charged yourself. Way too much force being used!

The course that I took was intended to be able to disarm and kill an apponent as fast as possible, while taking minimal damage to yourself.

Just my .02

Slim

P.S. I also have roughly 14 years in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and have loved every minute!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

....and, once again, I will add for those "type-A's" out there, there is no better system than using your head and not putting yourself in a situation.
  IE..."Yes, Sir, you are correct, in fact I made love to a goat just yesterday, have a nice day"......This is not always possible but I don't even need my second hand to count the number of bar fights I've been in in my life.[and I may have spent considerable time in them ]

 

[Franko]

Franco - I bet you feel really good about screwing someones limb and life ....

Not at all. I didn't know what you were talking about until I re-read the entire thread...bad memory.

Anyways.....the guy is now fine and I see him from time to time around. It was over a year ago and as far as his doctor is concerned...I guess it's healed. He's now a recovering alcoholic and getting treatment...so he says.

Getting back to the situation.

He's 6'4 ish and drunk....I bump into him and appologise....I here mumbles and next thing I see is a fist headed my way...see a few stars then feel pain in ribs.......

What did you want me to do? Ask for an appology? I squared off and started blocking for all I was worth and finally got in close and defended myself.

Know what it's like seeing a man that size coming at you when your 5' 7 ? Then I find out after the fact he normaly carries a knife.....

Yep.....I guess I did the WRONG thing....and I should be kicked out of my dojo for doing what I was trained to do....

defending myself.....maybe I should get out of the forces too.....

I might defend myself or my buddies while on tour.

Regards

 

[Gouki]

How dare you mess up someone who attacked you over nothing

you sir are a monster

 

[Franko]

Sigh......

I guess so....  :

Regards

 

[JBP]

Slim

P.S. I also have roughly 14 years in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and have loved every minute!

Hey Slim, I thought true Ninjutsu was illegal in Canada due to it's purpose and implicit abilities? Also, I thought that only a father would teach a son etc etc etc.... I have never met or heard of anyone who has studied it so all I know about it is rumors with the ole' smoke and mirrors from people...

Not knockin' ya cause I know your a legit and good guy but just VERY curious!!!

Joe

 

[Kal]

As I said, I made a hasty statement without furthing researching the situation or individual.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".  I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?  I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.  I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it.

How dare you mess up someone who attacked you over nothing

you sir are a monster

It's rather ironic that this sarcastic remark, actually has much basis with my statement.  One shouldn't mess someone or their life up over nothing and I believe many would agree with me.  Although one may heal, there will be little things that won't be same for them again.  I'm not saying the oweness is on one for anothers actions, but are for their own.  Force Necessary. 

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

As I said, I made a hasty statement without furthing researching the situation or individual.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".  I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?  I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.  I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it.
It's rather ironic that this sarcastic remark, actually has much basis with my statement.  One shouldn't mess someone or their life up over nothing and I believe many would agree with me.  Although one may heal, there will be little things that won't be same for them again.  I'm not saying the oweness is on one for anothers actions, but are for their own.  Force Necessary. 

If that kids got a knife out, I say gut him like a fish. I've had knives pulled on me, and I can say without a doubt that with or without training, I  would have went for the throat if I had a knife as well. Luckily with a little persuasion and intimidation, the guy backed off and felt like it wasnt the right night to take a chance with someone willing to spar against him, with a knife. Its hurt or be hurt, and I've been hurt enough to know which one I'd prefer. In your case, you drop the stupid punk with everything you've got and be on your way. Serves him right...

 

[Jarnhamar]

I was in taekwondo for a while. I like it as a sport but not really a from of self defense, especially for the military or what i would imagine to be the police force.

Taking aikido i'm really impressed with the martial art, it's philosophy and what i'm learning from it. (Early Steven segal looks bad ass, not so much in his later movies heh)
It seems like the most, as far as i'm learned on the subject, practical thing to take for soldiers.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".  I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?

I'm tempted to believe there is a difference between a soldier on operations (?) defending himself from an assault and some kids comming up to you being mouthy, and your using a knife?  Apples and oranges, no?

 

[Kal]

I'm tempted to believe there is a difference between a soldier on operations (?) defending himself from an assault and some kids comming up to you being mouthy, and your using a knife?  Apples and oranges, no?

  Apples and oranges indeed, but what one trains for on ops is different (generally) from training for the street.  I don't have any reservations to slot the enemy who directly or indirectly is trying to harm myself or others, but I can't pull out a hunting rifle and 'close with and destroy' the kid vandalizing property, or the drunk who doesn't want to leave.  Right?

If that kids got a knife out, I say gut him like a fish. I've had knives pulled on me, and I can say without a doubt that with or without training, I would have went for the throat if I had a knife as well. Luckily with a little persuasion and intimidation, the guy backed off and felt like it wasnt the right night to take a chance with someone willing to spar against him, with a knife. Its hurt or be hurt, and I've been hurt enough to know which one I'd prefer. In your case, you drop the stupid punk with everything you've got and be on your way. Serves him right...

  Well, I'm glad to hear you weren't seriously injured in your knife encounter.  What one also has to realize is, is that many a time someone will pull a knife just for intimidation with no intention of seriously using it.  You can usually tell when someone doesn't have the commitment to use it either, body language, voice tone, that sort of thing.  Now, if someone did pull a knife out on me and was going to, or was using it already, it wouldn't be a good day out for them.  As to dropping the "stupid punk with everything you've got", can't really do that either.  If they're just mouthing off, no use sending him to the hospital and you to the courthouse.  I like to train by what am I morally, ethically and legally able to do for any given situation.  If someone decided to pull a knife to scare me away, legally, I could probably get away with maiming and/or deadly force, but if this person is scared to the bone, shaking and voice cracking, almost ready to cry, would I morally and ethically be in the right to kill or maim them? 

 

[Fusaki]

What one also has to realize is, is that many a time someone will pull a knife just for intimidation with no intention of seriously using it. 

A knife (method of inflicting life threatening harm) displayed in an aggressive manner (a clear enough sign of intent) in close proximity to the target victim (the means of employing the knife) is all that is required to respond with deadly force.

Whether the punk was just trying to intimidate you or not is irrelevant. You're not a mind reader, and you arn't expected to risk your life by taking chances. If you're gonna to play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Its a matter of dealing with the consequences. If someone has the gusto to have a go at me with a knife in the first place, I have no problem with doing what I want to them. Once they raise that blade, they've immediatly accepted anything that happens to them then and there be it consciously or not. They've taken that risk, and need to accept what comes of it. Now this is in a severe case, you're general hand to hand street fight is a different matter. Act accordingly to the situation, if you're on top...why break his arm when you can just beat him? When Im on top, I've even been known to avoid the noise so not to break it. With that in mind, if Im on the bottom I have no problem breaking something, and I would expect the same from my opponent.