Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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The Liberals will declare them "Cadillac's" and cancel the order and muck around for another 20 years.
Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
- Thread starter jmt18325
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Pay $500 million in additional penalties. Then turn around and buy them anyway, just in smaller numbers. (EH-101, then smaller numbers of Cyclones... eventually built the T26, but then supplement it with T31)
I know it doesn’t seem to matter at all when it comes to politicians, but shouldn’t wasting THAT MUCH public money be criminal??
(Not trying to derail the thread. But paying $500 million in cancellation penalties, aka paying $500 million to NOT have a capability. That’s public money that could have been invested, or spent elsewhere. Shouldn’t that breach some kind of law??)
I know it doesn’t seem to matter at all when it comes to politicians, but shouldn’t wasting THAT MUCH public money be criminal??
(Not trying to derail the thread. But paying $500 million in cancellation penalties, aka paying $500 million to NOT have a capability. That’s public money that could have been invested, or spent elsewhere. Shouldn’t that breach some kind of law??)
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Not sure if this has been talked about previously but what would be the reasons not to shift the construction of the 2 CCG AOPS (with the possibility of more being built if needed by the CCG) over to Davie and starting the construction of the CSC in the time slot that the 2 CCG AOPS would have occupied in the queue at Irving? The time slots for the 2 CCG's AOPS at Irving have never been released to the public from what I've been able to find. Irving hasn't begun to cut steel on AOPS 5 and 6 yet and realistically won't start on #6 until 2023.
Obviously Irving won't be happy but this might provide a better chance of actually building 15 CSC instead of a reduced number due to the outrageously long timelines and help keep the costs in check because construction would start 2-4yrs earlier.
Since Davie is being given CCG icebreaker work, this would line up nicely. Removes the need to have Davie go through all the defence level security clearance that has been discussed previously as a requirement for them to work on the CSC.
It's not easy to see how a Polar Class 5 that the AOPS has been given lines up with an Arctic Class 2 that the CCGS Anne Harvey has, but it looks like a AOPS is better equipped to handle the duties that Anne Harvey currently performs. Building more than 2 CCG AOPS at Davie might add to the capabilities of the CCG going forward. Also having a class of ships that is 8+ in size means that the supply lines will be operational for years to come.
Obviously Irving won't be happy but this might provide a better chance of actually building 15 CSC instead of a reduced number due to the outrageously long timelines and help keep the costs in check because construction would start 2-4yrs earlier.
Since Davie is being given CCG icebreaker work, this would line up nicely. Removes the need to have Davie go through all the defence level security clearance that has been discussed previously as a requirement for them to work on the CSC.
It's not easy to see how a Polar Class 5 that the AOPS has been given lines up with an Arctic Class 2 that the CCGS Anne Harvey has, but it looks like a AOPS is better equipped to handle the duties that Anne Harvey currently performs. Building more than 2 CCG AOPS at Davie might add to the capabilities of the CCG going forward. Also having a class of ships that is 8+ in size means that the supply lines will be operational for years to come.
The only downsides I can see in your plan is...
Typically, shipyards 'learn' how to build a class of ship. So the last ship tends to be built faster, cheaper, and more efficiently than the first. If we transferred the final 2 AOPS to Davie, then Davie would have to 'learn' how to build AOPS - for only 2 ships. This would also cost more money, than if we let Irving just continue building the fleet, since they have some steady momentum on that fleet now.
Overall, your idea isn't a bad one at all. I'm sure there's complex things behind the scenes (contracts & such) that would make it far more of a hassle than it's worth. But, good creative thinking for sure
Typically, shipyards 'learn' how to build a class of ship. So the last ship tends to be built faster, cheaper, and more efficiently than the first. If we transferred the final 2 AOPS to Davie, then Davie would have to 'learn' how to build AOPS - for only 2 ships. This would also cost more money, than if we let Irving just continue building the fleet, since they have some steady momentum on that fleet now.
Overall, your idea isn't a bad one at all. I'm sure there's complex things behind the scenes (contracts & such) that would make it far more of a hassle than it's worth. But, good creative thinking for sure
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I agree with your comments on the synergies possibly being lost by moving the CCG AOPS over to Davie. But when looking at when the first AOPS was laid down (5ys ago this March) and then the last of the AOPS (6+2) would be laid down, sometime in the 2025-2026 time frame, I'm not convinced that Davie wouldn't be able to start the first CCG AOPS in that same time frame, potentially even a year earlier. So the CSC get's moved into the 2024/25 time frame, right when the 2 CCG AOPS get started at Davie.The only downsides I can see in your plan is...
Typically, shipyards 'learn' how to build a class of ship. So the last ship tends to be built faster, cheaper, and more efficiently than the first. If we transferred the final 2 AOPS to Davie, then Davie would have to 'learn' how to build AOPS - for only 2 ships. This would also cost more money, than if we let Irving just continue building the fleet, since they have some steady momentum on that fleet now.
Overall, your idea isn't a bad one at all. I'm sure there's complex things behind the scenes (contracts & such) that would make it far more of a hassle than it's worth. But, good creative thinking for sure
MilEME09
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This all assumes that if you moved things around that they could be ready to cut steel earlier.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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I don`t think steel cutting is the issue, it's where and how to cut and where to weld that is. What they can do is determine which parts of the ship design are untouched by Canadian needs and start cutting steel for those bits and consider which modules can be built offsite. I suspect not every module needs a security clearance, a sewage system is a sewage system for example.
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9400 tons is either wrong or the design margin (the max tonnage a hull can be based on its design). Based on comparable ship sizes (see Burke Blk II dimensions) 9400 is not far off of what the design margin could be.
Given that the Aussies stated their ship would be 8800 with a similar loadout to ours (24VLS etc...) then this makes some sense. An extra 600 ton design margin.
As far as calling it a frigate, ships haven't technically haven't been named by tonnage ever in history. They were named by role though during WW1-early cold war, ships generally fell into categories. An aircraft carrier is the same tonnage as a large cruiser or battleship but it's not called a battleship because its role is different.
A frigate by NATO designation is a multi-role escort ship. So CSC will likely be called a frigate. It doesn't really matter. A rose by any other name will still stab you with thorns...
Given that the Aussies stated their ship would be 8800 with a similar loadout to ours (24VLS etc...) then this makes some sense. An extra 600 ton design margin.
As far as calling it a frigate, ships haven't technically haven't been named by tonnage ever in history. They were named by role though during WW1-early cold war, ships generally fell into categories. An aircraft carrier is the same tonnage as a large cruiser or battleship but it's not called a battleship because its role is different.
A frigate by NATO designation is a multi-role escort ship. So CSC will likely be called a frigate. It doesn't really matter. A rose by any other name will still stab you with thorns...
MilEME09
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Max allowed tons for the design makes sense, that way you leave a wide margin for later refit.
I imagine they will be called 'multi-purpose patrol frigates' so the public doesn't get all weird about the military actually being able to do military things (for the 2 days they pay attention, before focusing on some other stupid useless thing.)
"Armed reconnaissance helicopter" ring a bell?
daftandbarmy
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I imagine they will be called 'multi-purpose patrol Peacekeeping frigates' so the public doesn't get all weird about the military actually being able to do military things (for the 2 days they pay attention, before focusing on some other stupid useless thing.)
"Armed reconnaissance helicopter" ring a bell?
There, FTFY
MilEME09
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Peace operations support shipsThere, FTFY
daftandbarmy
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MilEME09
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Would of flotilla if them be a POSSE?Acronym?
POS
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Hopefully its ok to post this here -
www.navalreview.ca
It does talk about some of the equipment on the CSC being moved to the 'build' phase...
We Will Always Have Your Back? – Canadian Naval Review
David Dunlop, 15 February 2021 It seems that the only way Canadians are receiving current and accurate information on the CSC Type 26 Frigate program Definition Phase is through the media over the last several months.
www.navalreview.ca
It does talk about some of the equipment on the CSC being moved to the 'build' phase...
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It's not quite the whole story. The long lead items that have been identified and are not going to change are being ordered. Gearboxes, engines, generators, and some of these more complicated electronics are being purchased. This is to get into the sub-contractors schedule. Sonar's come under that heading. We know the type of sonar, we know the general setup so go ahead and purchase the sonar. Odds are that the sonar won't be built for a while, but it's on the order books, thus the builder can now get on with sourcing the materials they need to build the sonar (including workforce) and planning for delivery sometime in the late 20's.
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Snippet from the CBC news piece on the keel laying ceremony for the William Hall - “Mooney confirmed first steel will be cut in 2024 on construction of much larger, more complex and more expensive surface warships for the navy, with the first warship to be delivered in the early 2030s.”
That timeline lines up with them having started the 6th RCN AOPS and not having started on the 2 CCG AOPS’s yet. Starting to wonder if the CCG AOPS’s ever get built at all or if they get moved over to Davie.
Not sure it’s possible to be cutting steel on CCG AOPS 1 and 2, as well as building them, finishing off RCN AOPS #6 and then cutting steel on the first CSC at the same time. Does Irving even have the space, equipment, capacity and manpower to be doing all of that at the same time?
I’m coming out and saying that the CCG doesn’t get any AOPS’s or they get built by Davie.
That timeline lines up with them having started the 6th RCN AOPS and not having started on the 2 CCG AOPS’s yet. Starting to wonder if the CCG AOPS’s ever get built at all or if they get moved over to Davie.
Not sure it’s possible to be cutting steel on CCG AOPS 1 and 2, as well as building them, finishing off RCN AOPS #6 and then cutting steel on the first CSC at the same time. Does Irving even have the space, equipment, capacity and manpower to be doing all of that at the same time?
I’m coming out and saying that the CCG doesn’t get any AOPS’s or they get built by Davie.
