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Canada's tanks

When the CCV was initiated - 2006 - we were finding LAVs getting severely beaten up by IEDs (and RPGs) and were looking for something heavier. Note that the RFP did not require tracks and all but the CV90 were wheeled offerings. By the time the project came to fruition - December of 2013 - the following factors were at play:

a) Canada had been out of Afghanistan for several years;

b) the CDS had proudly proclaimed that with Afghanistan done, it was the navy and air force's turn for new gear and money;

c) the LAV UP program was also running and was going to deliver an upgraded LAV 6.0 which had solved most of the earlier problems with the LAV III;

d) due to the financial crisis the defence budget was dropping from a high of $21.4 billion in 2011 to $18.5 billion in 2013 and $17.9 for 2014 and 15; and

e) the semi-religious fervour behind the medium-weight, all-singing, all-dancing LAV army was still in vogue with many folks in the army's leadership. At this point, the CCV's champions - Andy Leslie and Dan Ross - were both gone. Those that remained saw little advantage that the CCV allegedly offered over the LAV 6.0. No one was really planning on what one could really call "heavy formations" - the aim had been better protection for the troops within a medium weight force (it's worth remembering that with 108 CCVs, there would have been roughly one company's worth per brigade for training purposes as well as an operational stock that could have been deployed for up to one battle-group. The army was never thinking of anything in the way of an armoured brigade here - the concept of a heavy 1 CMBG had been frittered away during Afghanistan)

The CV90 had not yet been announced but was considered the likely winner. Regardless $2 billion for 108 CCVs was considered an unaffordable luxury and so was cut. On a cheery note, the TAPV went ahead. :giggle:

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Mad Season 9 GIF by The Office
 
I did a quick search. Does anyone actually use the CV90/105?

All I've seen are comments from Reddit re War Thunder gaming and the results aren't good.



:giggle:

You might want to consider the limitations of the system before applying it.

On the other hand - two fit into a C17, they have got more armour than anything the VDV could bring to the field, and they would beat BMPs, BTRs and MTLBs as well. They would probably do a number on a T72 and earlier.

To my knowledge nobody has mounted a 105 on a CV90 except for prototyping and marketing. On the other hand I know of a fair number of vehicles mounting 105s on lighter hulls, some of them even wheeled.

....

You want to join the US Marines and go hey diddle diddle right up the middle then by all means build your heavy force and concentrate at the schwerpunkt.

Me, I want to hold on to the other 90% of the terrain and that requires more economy of effort. I might even be able to threaten the other chap's LOCs. ;)
 
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I don't disagree -- but the cost implications of that are fairly extensive I am told.

Any idea what the price is on the Vampire 70mm turret and/or the Slinger 30mm turrets and how it might compare to Delco 25 or Kongsberg products? Or, for that matter, a Trophy system?



How Much Does a VAMPIRE Cost?​

L3Harris announced in January that the US Department of Defense awarded them a $40 million contract to deliver 14 VAMPIRE weapon systems for Kiev forces.
The company also boasts that the APKWS rockets – essentially the 70mm unguided Hydra rockets converted into laser-guided munitions - the VAMPIRE can use are also relatively low-cost, being priced at about $27,500 apiece.

The Slinger is designed for low-cost counter-drone interception. Compared to traditional missiles that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars being used against drones costing in the low tens of thousands or less, Slinger has a cost per engagement ranging from $155-$1,550; unit cost is less than $1.55 million.
 
Poking holes in overly resilient buildings at less cost than a missile? Though there must be other options for that.

Engineers with a Demo gun - or rocket line setup.
Round about 1970, an issue of Armor had an article calling for what was basically a STuG .
It would have used the drive train and running gear of a then prototype of an MICV . And the main armament of the M 60 A2 a 152 mm gun.
Some where I suspect I still have a copy of that issue.
It may time to go looking for it .
So take this:
1280px-Combined_Resolve_III_141024-A-LO967-008.jpg


And add the gun from this:
M728_Combat_Engineer_Vehicle_%28CEV%29.jpg
 
Fantastic case study though in how not to structure one’s budget, and how not to do maintenance…
Absolutely. I wanted to say precisely that but my brain was mush at the time - totally agree
 
Any idea what the price is on the Vampire 70mm turret and/or the Slinger 30mm turrets and how it might compare to Delco 25 or Kongsberg products? Or, for that matter, a Trophy system?






Sorry I was distracted earlier and didn't reply.

Anyone can market something as a C-UAS system -- but it doesn't make it an effective one.
The Slinger RWS doesn't do anything that the LAV/Bradley doesn't do with it's 25mm (other than offer the 30mm proximity fuzed round).
It's a stabilized gun - but has no AD feed or STC to aid hitting the target.

So for some of the slow moving low altitude straight line flying UAS it could be effective once they where detected - but for an effective C-UAS gun system you need an AD intended fire control.
I wonder if there are any of the old M163 Vulcan systems sitting around?

 
You might want to consider the limitations of the system before applying it.

On the other hand - two fit into a C17, they have got more armour than anything the VDV could bring to the field, and they would beat BMPs, BTRs and MTLBs as well. They would probably do a number on a T72 and earlier.

To my knowledge nobody has mounted a 105 on a CV90 except for prototyping and marketing. On the other hand I know of a fair number of vehicles mounting 105s on lighter hulls, some of them even wheeled.

....

You want to join the US Marines and go hey diddle diddle right up the middle then by all means build your heavy force and concentrate at the schwerpunkt.

Me, I want to hold on to the other 90% of the terrain and that requires more economy of effort. I might even be able to threaten the other chap's LOCs. ;)
Considering most of the existing armour on the opposing side globally was designed and built during the 105mm era, I suspect with some ammunition upgrades it would still be quite effective against most of the targets. As much as I agree that ammunition commonality is a good thing. To much gun on a lighter package is not. Add in the fact that most of the fighting globally is not MBT vs MBT, but a lot of Direct Fire Support or anti-armour against lighter AFV's. It could still be very viable. Particularity in areas/regions that would not be good to push 60 ton tanks into.

KevinB counterpoint in 5,4,3,2.......
 
Considering most of the existing armour on the opposing side globally was designed and built during the 105mm era, I suspect with some ammunition upgrades it would still be quite effective against most of the targets. As much as I agree that ammunition commonality is a good thing. To much gun on a lighter package is not. Add in the fact that most of the fighting globally is not MBT vs MBT, but a lot of Direct Fire Support or anti-armour against lighter AFV's. It could still be very viable. Particularity in areas/regions that would not be good to push 60 ton tanks into.

KevinB counterpoint in 5,4,3,2.......
No point overcomplicated our logistics by stocking two tank rounds. 120 or bust. Light troops should have ATGMs anyways so that 105mm shouldn't be needed.
 
No point overcomplicated our logistics by stocking two tank rounds. 120 or bust. Light troops should have ATGMs anyways so that 105mm shouldn't be needed.
Not necessarily talking about us. A lot of countries lack the infrastructure or terrain to support MBT's.
 
Not necessarily talking about us. A lot of countries lack the infrastructure or terrain to support MBT's.
If terrain doesn’t support a MBT it is highly unlikely to support a LAV or a M10 Booker type thing.

Yes bridges can be an issue for a 70t tank, but other than that there isn’t much else that a lighter system can do better. Generally that is also why Armored formations have Engineering assets.

Unless you are talking about terrain only suited for things like a BV and the like, which aren’t really mounting cannons.

Take a read through the US Army Light force Doctrine, and then try to explain the M10 Booker ;)
 
If terrain doesn’t support a MBT it is highly unlikely to support a LAV or a M10 Booker type thing.

Yes bridges can be an issue for a 70t tank, but other than that there isn’t much else that a lighter system can do better. Generally that is also why Armored formations have Engineering assets.

Unless you are talking about terrain only suited for things like a BV and the like, which aren’t really mounting cannons.

Take a read through the US Army Light force Doctrine, and then try to explain the M10 Booker ;)
30-40 tons opens up a lot of roads, bridges and ferries. Not to mention keeping those roads, bridge operating in the long term.
 
30-40 tons opens up a lot of roads, bridges and ferries. Not to mention keeping those roads, bridge operating in the long term.
Weight really isn’t an issue for most roads, it’s ground pressure. Which is where wheeled armored vehicles really have issues, it’s also why they don’t do as well in a lot of off road terrain as tracks.

Wheeled vehicles will ruin a road much faster than tracks, assuming the track is not running steel grousers. Even more so for softer roads.

Personally I wouldn’t put much concern in Ferries - for if you haven’t put the effort into getting transport for your Army before hostilities, well there are probably larger issues you also missed. Then either you have a port for larger Ro/Ro, you make one, or you don’t bring in armor.
 
No point overcomplicated our logistics by stocking two tank rounds. 120 or bust. Light troops should have ATGMs anyways so that 105mm shouldn't be needed.
The Centauro II has a 120mm gun on a chassis that's lighter than the LAV so should be doable.

The problem as others have mentioned is that when you mount a tank gun on a non-tank then the temptation is to use it as a tank. The Italians even describe the Centauro II as a "tank destroyer"...which will much more likely result in them being "tank destroyed".

I think the risk of treating a LAV-120, CV-90120 or Booker as a "light tank" is only increased if you give it to your Armoured units. The only case I can see being made for one would be if it is a designated DFS vehicle manned by the infantry and part of the infantry CS structure AND ONLY if the RCAC has all the actual tanks that they need to fill out their Tank and Recce Regiments to support the infantry.
 
The Centauro II has a 120mm gun on a chassis that's lighter than the LAV so should be doable.

The problem as others have mentioned is that when you mount a tank gun on a non-tank then the temptation is to use it as a tank. The Italians even describe the Centauro II as a "tank destroyer"...which will much more likely result in them being "tank destroyed".

I think the risk of treating a LAV-120, CV-90120 or Booker as a "light tank" is only increased if you give it to your Armoured units. The only case I can see being made for one would be if it is a designated DFS vehicle manned by the infantry and part of the infantry CS structure AND ONLY if the RCAC has all the actual tanks that they need to fill out their Tank and Recce Regiments to support the infantry.
What does the infantry need a 120mm for? The tanks and the infantry work in tandem as part of the battlegroup/brigade so any duplication of the armoured squadron's firepower would be better served by more tanks. A LAV TUA or otherwise modernized variant would be far more useful to the infantry and a better use of their personnel.
 
What does the infantry need a 120mm for? The tanks and the infantry work in tandem as part of the battlegroup/brigade so any duplication of the armoured squadron's firepower would be better served by more tanks. A LAV TUA or otherwise modernized variant would be far more useful to the infantry and a better use of their personnel.
100% the infantry should have a LAV-AT. As I mentioned the ONLY case I could see made for a LAV-120 in addition to tanks would be IF the RCAC had all the tanks they need to fill out their Regiments. The LAV-120 would then fill a DFS role using cheap gun rounds against targets like structures, etc. without having to waste expensive AT-capable missiles or diverting the tanks from their primary role of defeating the enemy's armour.

What does the infantry need a DFS platform for when there are tanks in the Armoured Regiments? Same reason the infantry needs their own integral IDF capabilities when the Artillery Regiments have 155mm Howitzers.

Does that DFS capability have to be a LAV-120? No, it's likely several steps down the requirement list, but as I said IF the RCAC has their tanks and IF the RCIC fills their AT (and AD) needs (and comms, EW, UAVs, etc.) THEN in that case I think a DFS capability something like a LAV-120 could be useful...which is unlikely in the extreme in the CAF.

I was simply pointing out that this type of vehicle does have a potential useful role...just not the role that some are suggesting as a "light tank" for the Armoured Regiments.
 
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