• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Canada's tanks

"Some have argued that the reconnaissance role is no longer relevant with UAS etc, so we shouldn't worry about it. There may be some merit in that argument, but I don't know that we can make such a bold pronouncement."

I still think there is a place on the battlefield for the human to conduct recce. Recce is a relevant role and lets not forget UAS etc can break or be rendered incapable of performing its task.
There is nothing quite like "eyes on the objective".
The problem with armoured recce in the Canadian context is it's too damned passive as it was born in the Sinai during our peacekeeping days and matured in the "End of History" era. If a recce by force-centric, combined arms cavalry squadron similar to our Second World War Recce model became the flavour of the day, I personally would be one of the first to volunteer haha.
 
"Some have argued that the reconnaissance role is no longer relevant with UAS etc, so we shouldn't worry about it. There may be some merit in that argument, but I don't know that we can make such a bold pronouncement."

I still think there is a place on the battlefield for the human to conduct recce. Recce is a relevant role and lets not forget UAS etc can break or be rendered incapable of performing its task.
There is nothing quite like "eyes on the objective".
When it comes to fluid kinetic operations like we see in Ukraine, I think there's a strong argument to be made for having eyes on the objective.

Drones break and malfunction, run out of juice, get damaged, jammed, shot down, etc.

And if one is waiting to ambush a column of enemy armour, or is sneaking through the woods for a small force on force engagement, having some human eyeballs on overwatch is a big deal.

Having tech is great until the tech doesn't work
 
  • Like
Reactions: ueo
"Some have argued that the reconnaissance role is no longer relevant with UAS etc, so we shouldn't worry about it. There may be some merit in that argument, but I don't know that we can make such a bold pronouncement."

I still think there is a place on the battlefield for the human to conduct recce. Recce is a relevant role and lets not forget UAS etc can break or be rendered incapable of performing its task.
There is nothing quite like "eyes on the objective".
I think the key is defining what one means by Reconnaissance.

I don’t see much of a Role for a Light Wheeled Armor force for that. Screening potentially, but I honestly think that a CV-90 based system would be better for that role, and frankly a CV-90 mixed Tank force would be the best current option.

When you need a tank, you really need a tank, and the 105mm tank gun is 30 years stale.

So a 120mm armed MBT and a cannon and ATGM armed Tracked RFV (Reconnaissance Fighting Vehicle) gives you mobility and fire power to conduct those tasks, adding in Light UGV and UAS systems would allow for an actual Armoured Reconnaissance unit -

The LAV LRSS is a Surveillance system not a RECCE system, with a 120mm Mortar LAV they could form a support side Troop to a Armoured Recce Squadron.
* I hate mixing Wheels and Tracks, but Canada has an ass ton of LAV so…


As much as I wasn’t a fan of retaining 25mm Bushmaster cannon, if Canada was to adopt the APFSDS-DU round, that would provide a decent DF Anti-Tank option, but if the CV-90 was acquired then you have a lot of other options for cannon, that with a Fire and Forget Linked ATGM then the need for the Autocannon as an anti-tank system is decreased significantly.
 
Last edited:
When it comes to fluid kinetic operations like we see in Ukraine, I think there's a strong argument to be made for having eyes on the objective.

Drones break and malfunction, run out of juice, get damaged, jammed, shot down, etc.

And if one is waiting to ambush a column of enemy armour, or is sneaking through the woods for a small force on force engagement, having some human eyeballs on overwatch is a big deal.

Having tech is great until the tech doesn't work

Swap out "Drones" for "Vehicles" or even "Troopers" and the same observations apply.

8 Seconds.

That number has stuck with me. IIRC I learned it in a book (Tug of War) written by the RHLI's CO (Denis Whitaker) about his time on the South Shore of the Scheldt while the Calgary Highlanders were getting shot up on the North Shore.

The Div Corps Recce Regiment was the 12th Manitoba Dragoons and as per doctrine of the day they were an Armoured Car regiment. They were working in Polder country, wet fields that were divided by dykes. The Germans flooded the fields. The Dragoons were limited to driving on top of the dykes - skylined - a more extreme version of the XXX Corps problem on the road to Arnhem.

8 seconds was the average survival time on contact. (I can't remember if that was for a troop leader or a vehicle).

Conversely a lot of good observation work was done by FOOs in windmills and church steeples, relying on a decent pair of binoculars.

....

When a drone is shot down you can always send another one. And if comms are lost you can always have it RTB and take a look at its SD card. The information won't be as timely but it will still be information.

....

Jock Columns were one solution for one problem - too many Italians and too few Indians, Aussies and Brits - O'Connor and Wavell beat the Italians. When they concentrated the Brits dispersed. Rommell countered with concentration. Montgomery countered with mass. He had one good battle that he got to prepare for.

Personally I am a fan of ad hocery. I think it is the ultimate expression of the Max Flex philosophy of the Cold War army which trained me.

Whatever we do the other guy will counter and we will have to counter the counter.
 
They already tried mounting that armament on a LAV, it didn't go all that well...

Re: MGS
Don't mistake failed execution for failed concept. The MGS was an utter lemon, but other countries have made the idea work to good effect. The question is not whether it (105mm on an 8x8) can be done well- it's whether its the right thing for Canada
 
Don't mistake failed execution for failed concept. The MGS was an utter lemon, but other countries have made the idea work to good effect. The question is not whether it (105mm on an 8x8) can be done well- it's whether its the right thing for Canada
Centauros enter the chat.
 
Don't mistake failed execution for failed concept. The MGS was an utter lemon, but other countries have made the idea work to good effect. The question is not whether it (105mm on an 8x8) can be done well- it's whether its the right thing for Canada
Simple answer is: No!

As stated above by @TangoTwoBravo, Canada won't get two AFVs. Canada is a one fleet country. If two things are too similar than one will go. Canada needs that one fleet to be the right fleet that is the most versatile. The fight to ward off the hold-out worshippers of the middle-weight force will be intense as it is.

In short, you can build a heavy force structure and have it do engagements that are below full-spectrum, but you can't build a middle-weight force and expect it to successfully fight above its weight.

I have yet to see a country that has made the idea of an MGS-like vehicle work in full-spectrum combat. Yes, some of them do have a niche role but its always in an army that is large enough to support a heavy AFV in their inventory as well. Centauros are backed by Arietes; Jaguars by Leclercs; Japan's Type 16 MCV by Type 10 MBTs - I could go on. Canada does not have that luxury.

🍻
 
Simple answer is: No!

As stated above by @TangoTwoBravo, Canada won't get two AFVs. Canada is a one fleet country. If two things are too similar than one will go. Canada needs that one fleet to be the right fleet that is the most versatile. The fight to ward off the hold-out worshippers of the middle-weight force will be intense as it is.

In short, you can build a heavy force structure and have it do engagements that are below full-spectrum, but you can't build a middle-weight force and expect it to successfully fight above its weight.

I have yet to see a country that has made the idea of an MGS-like vehicle work in full-spectrum combat. Yes, some of them do have a niche role but its always in an army that is large enough to support a heavy AFV in their inventory as well. Centauros are backed by Arietes; Jaguars by Leclercs; Japan's Type 16 MCV by Type 10 MBTs - I could go on. Canada does not have that luxury.

🍻
We have room in the RCAC orbat for both. Tanks aren't useful for things like RAPZ, RAS, flank security as they should be at the front doing the lion's share of the direct fire killing. I see nothing wrong with having any of those middling pieces of kit providing punch to a cavalry squadron. Push out squadrons with a troop or two of medium armour, a couple troops of scouts mounted in the armoured LUV variant whatever that ends up being, a troop of mortars and boom, combined arms squadrons that enable the RCAC to keep those less kinetic tasks moving along nicely while the tanks are slugging it out.

Fighting troops of a potential Cav Squadron:
2 x DFS Tp - EBRC Jaguar (or Centauro or LAV700 or or or...)
2 x Scout Troop - JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
1 x Mortar Troop - JTLVA2 Cargo and JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
 
Simple answer is: No!

As stated above by @TangoTwoBravo, Canada won't get two AFVs. Canada is a one fleet country. If two things are too similar than one will go. Canada needs that one fleet to be the right fleet that is the most versatile. The fight to ward off the hold-out worshippers of the middle-weight force will be intense as it is.

In short, you can build a heavy force structure and have it do engagements that are below full-spectrum, but you can't build a middle-weight force and expect it to successfully fight above its weight.

I have yet to see a country that has made the idea of an MGS-like vehicle work in full-spectrum combat. Yes, some of them do have a niche role but its always in an army that is large enough to support a heavy AFV in their inventory as well. Centauros are backed by Arietes; Jaguars by Leclercs; Japan's Type 16 MCV by Type 10 MBTs - I could go on. Canada does not have that luxury.

🍻
With respect, reading his post I think you're misconstruing his points. He specifically stated that he didn't think we could/would operate both M10's and an MBT fleet. But he also spoke favourably about the Centauro, and of the US style combined arms Cavalry construct. I see these worries in a very specific context- that being a situation with all of
  • the RCAC pushing the homogenous 4x4 organization and common stream cavalry TTP's
  • the hypothetical "medium cavalry vehicle" being the 3rd (actually 4th thought the TAPV would theoretically be squeezed out) RCAC fighting vehicle fleet, fitting in between the LAV and the Leopard
  • the "medium cavalry vehicle" being similar enough to the uneducated that it becomes a threat to supplant the MBT in a cost cutting measure
Being true.

"big gun on a LAV" could/would be being evaluated in a fundamentally different context
  1. Putting "cavalry" concept aside, if Canada went the Simpson path of properly organizing 1 or 2 of the regiments as LAV based combined arms cavalry with integral dismounts, heavy weapons and combat support, the vehicle would be adding firepower at the sub-unit level while retaining a common chassis
  2. A LAV 120 would be adding a variant to an existing fleet, not a completely new fleet
  3. It's certainly not a tank, and it's a far easier distinction to make the M10 where realistically it is a tank, just not a good enough one.
 
The unfortunate aspect is that so much of these questions will not get answered until the CA (and CAF, DND, GoC) decide what it wants to be when it grows up.

IMHO a MBT needs other tracked systems to be used to it's potential (IFV, RFV, AEV, ABV, AVLB, etc).
Canada acquired Leo 2's - but is missing nearly all the other enablers for an Armoured Bde/Div.

As much as there are a lot of Bradleys sitting at Sierra Army Depot - those are better sent to Ukraine.

The CV-90 is also a lot lower profile - which to me make a better RFV, and has the solid rubber track option (which is a lot quieter) - and the rear crew area can also hold some smaller models of UGV.
 
Fighting troops of a potential Cav Squadron:
2 x DFS Tp - EBRC Jaguar (or Centauro or LAV700 or or or...)
2 x Scout Troop - JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
1 x Mortar Troop - JTLVA2 Cargo and JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
Or
4x Mixed Troops -1:1 LAV Desert Viper with XM913 & ATGM's + Scout dismounts and LAV LRSS
1x Overwatch Troop LAV NEMO + LAV HERO
 
We have room in the RCAC orbat for both.
Doubt
Tanks aren't useful for things like RAPZ, RAS, flank security as they should be at the front doing the lion's share of the direct fire killing
Tanks can do those tasks, but they aren't optimal for some -- flank security I would suggest is something that a tank can actually be very excellent at - if you are concerned about enemy armor or light armor.
Tanks should be at the front, but not necessarily doing the majority of the killing, as that is generally the Artillery. Tanks provide the "get up and go" with HAPC/HIFV's due their armor, mobility and firepower.
I see nothing wrong with having any of those middling pieces of kit providing punch to a cavalry squadron. Push out squadrons with a troop or two of medium armour, a couple troops of scouts mounted in the armoured LUV variant whatever that ends up being, a troop of mortars and boom, combined arms squadrons that enable the RCAC to keep those less kinetic tasks moving along nicely while the tanks are slugging it out.
It is an issue of scale - and what is a Cav Squadron in the Divisional context?

Fighting troops of a potential Cav Squadron:
2 x DFS Tp - EBRC Jaguar (or Centauro or LAV700 or or or...)
2 x Scout Troop - JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
1 x Mortar Troop - JTLVA2 Cargo and JTLVA2 C&R w/RWS
I find it hard to find a role for this sort of construct.
As it is the typical "shmedium" too light to fight, and too heavy for any sort of light footprint stealth.

With respect, reading his post I think you're misconstruing his points. He specifically stated that he didn't think we could/would operate both M10's and an MBT fleet. But he also spoke favourably about the Centauro, and of the US style combined arms Cavalry construct. I see these worries in a very specific context- that being a situation with all of
  • the RCAC pushing the homogenous 4x4 organization and common stream cavalry TTP's
  • the hypothetical "medium cavalry vehicle" being the 3rd (actually 4th thought the TAPV would theoretically be squeezed out) RCAC fighting vehicle fleet, fitting in between the LAV and the Leopard
  • the "medium cavalry vehicle" being similar enough to the uneducated that it becomes a threat to supplant the MBT in a cost cutting measure
Being true.
Agreed.

"big gun on a LAV" could/would be being evaluated in a fundamentally different context
  1. Putting "cavalry" concept aside, if Canada went the Simpson path of properly organizing 1 or 2 of the regiments as LAV based combined arms cavalry with integral dismounts, heavy weapons and combat support, the vehicle would be adding firepower at the sub-unit level while retaining a common chassis
  2. A LAV 120 would be adding a variant to an existing fleet, not a completely new fleet
  3. It's certainly not a tank, and it's a far easier distinction to make the M10 where realistically it is a tank, just not a good enough one.
FFS no
The 105 doesn't work on the LAV, a 120mm is not going to work. Even worse it has a tank gun -- and keep in mind what the RCAC did with the Cougar - as they did deploy with that pea shooter 76mm


Both of these make me cringe, because they end up focusing on the neither fish nor fowl aspect of the CA. The other aspect is that one needs to start looking at the Division as the key Maneuver unit when one ramps back up to LSCOs.

If Canada isn't going to be fielding a Division, then it needs to understand where it's Brigades will fit - and the roles for them, both in Europe and elsewhere.
 
FFS no
The 105 doesn't work on the LAV, a 120mm is not going to work.
In any case- I don't think it would be the right "big gun LAV" , 35 or 50 + ATGM's makes more sense and would be my choice. But the whole "GLDS failed once with the MGS and I don't like it any way so it doesn't and can never work" distracts from the real reasons why not to choose it over the other options
Both of these make me cringe, because they end up focusing on the neither fish nor fowl aspect of the CA. The other aspect is that one needs to start looking at the Division as the key Maneuver unit when one ramps back up to LSCOs.
I believe both are riffing off of the Simpson articles about the need for formation reconnaissance/ true cavalry gap.

Is see this discussion as:
  • Should the RCAC organize it's two weights as tank and pretend tank, and try to jam the square pretend tank forces into some round holes for just long enough to keep the PY's until the next fleet recapitalization and argue for 3 regiments of tanks
  • Should the RCAC organize it's two weights as tank and formation recce/ true cavalry
 
Doubt

Tanks can do those tasks, but they aren't optimal for some -- flank security I would suggest is something that a tank can actually be very excellent at - if you are concerned about enemy armor or light armor.
Tanks should be at the front, but not necessarily doing the majority of the killing, as that is generally the Artillery. Tanks provide the "get up and go" with HAPC/HIFV's due their armor, mobility and firepower.

It is an issue of scale - and what is a Cav Squadron in the Divisional context?


I find it hard to find a role for this sort of construct.
As it is the typical "shmedium" too light to fight, and too heavy for any sort of light footprint stealth.
A tank should never conduct a recce or rear area security. It's a complete misuse of its characteristics and if you think a JTLVA2 is too heavy for recce, tanks most certainly are.

You form several squadrons into a regiment in the divisional context?

This is modelled off our very successful armoured recce squadron from the second world war and isn't too dissimilar to what our allies use to good effect. Your scouts can dismount for mud recce if need be be this is less recce by stealth and more find, fix and define the enemy - recce by force. This certainly has a role in a divisional context as formation recce.
 
The CA is stuck in a LAV rut. There is a growing realization that there is a need for a tracked IFV but we have a ton of LAVs with a bit of life left in them (and limited money due to other CAF priorities like NORAD, F-35's, ships, subs, P-8's, etc., etc., etc.) so they are unlikely to be a high priority for replacement any time soon.

The problem with looking to a 105mm/120mm LAV option is that it's doubling down on the wheeled platform. We already know we need to replace our tanks. We also know that at some time in the future (when the LAVs are approaching retirement age - or preferably ready to shift to the Reserves/War Stock). We'd be better off looking to the future and getting enough tanks for both our "Heavy Cavalry" Regiments (all tanks) as well as our "Medium Cavalry" Regiments (currently LAVs & TAPVs) so that when we DO get a tracked IFV we can replace the LAVs and end up with a Tank Regiment, a "Heavy Cavalry" Regiment (Tanks/IFVs) and a "Light Cavalry" Regiment...eliminating the mushy medium middle.

The "Heavy Cavalry" Regiment can conduct more US-style Recce by contact while the "Light Cavalry" Regiment can conduct tasks like rear area security, etc. where lighter vehicles are more suited than tanks/IFVs.
 
Tanks can do those tasks, but they aren't optimal for some -- flank security I would suggest is something that a tank can actually be very excellent at - if you are concerned about enemy armor or light armor.
I know, I know. I'm going back to the 70's retro feel but ... I worked with Germans on Shilo battle group battle runs and inevitably flank security at that time came from an Aufklärer company which was a Marder/Leopard mixed team. While initially the Marders did not have ATGMs, when they subsequently fielded the Milan, the tactics changed a bit but the tank platoon remained.

That said, I do note that the modern German brigade Aufklärer battalions have gone to Fenneks and drones. That's a sneak and peek organization. For strong flank security they deploy line armoured and armoured infantry companies. There is no MGS equivalent

🍻
 
While this is another derail of the primary topic, it’s part of a larger sense/strike picture. The ability to gain information (and effectively act on it) before the enemy is extremely important.

The older I get the more friends I’ve lost in various countries across the world, and I’m much more interested in sending machines wherever possible into the unknown to gain information.

That goes from a small fiber optic camera to a room — to screening/sensing elements at formation edges.

It also means I don’t accept the idea that some roles should be assigned to systems that aren’t suitable for them.
 
Swap out "Drones" for "Vehicles" or even "Troopers" and the same observations apply.

8 Seconds.

That number has stuck with me. IIRC I learned it in a book (Tug of War) written by the RHLI's CO (Denis Whitaker) about his time on the South Shore of the Scheldt while the Calgary Highlanders were getting shot up on the North Shore.

The Div Corps Recce Regiment was the 12th Manitoba Dragoons and as per doctrine of the day they were an Armoured Car regiment. They were working in Polder country, wet fields that were divided by dykes. The Germans flooded the fields. The Dragoons were limited to driving on top of the dykes - skylined - a more extreme version of the XXX Corps problem on the road to Arnhem.

8 seconds was the average survival time on contact. (I can't remember if that was for a troop leader or a vehicle).

Conversely a lot of good observation work was done by FOOs in windmills and church steeples, relying on a decent pair of binoculars.

....

When a drone is shot down you can always send another one. And if comms are lost you can always have it RTB and take a look at its SD card. The information won't be as timely but it will still be information.

....

Jock Columns were one solution for one problem - too many Italians and too few Indians, Aussies and Brits - O'Connor and Wavell beat the Italians. When they concentrated the Brits dispersed. Rommell countered with concentration. Montgomery countered with mass. He had one good battle that he got to prepare for.

Personally I am a fan of ad hocery. I think it is the ultimate expression of the Max Flex philosophy of the Cold War army which trained me.

Whatever we do the other guy will counter and we will have to counter the counter.
I am sure that an AFV that was sighted in the open in WW2 could be destroyed quite quickly, but I am not sure how much operational research went into Whitaker's report of an eight-second life expectancy.

Regarding Jock Columns, I think some things need to be established without taking away from their applicability to the modern battlefield. The initial campaign in the Western Desert against the Italian in 1940 and early 1941 was not really ad-hoc, although of course adaptations were made by commanders based on the threat, demanding environment and extended lines of communications. The force that became 13 Corps under O'Connor had an Armoured Division and an Infantry Division (initially 4th Indian Division and then 6th Australian). They had Corps artillery with something like five regiments of guns plus the artillery regiments in the divisions. They also had, of particular note, 7th Royal Tank Regiment (7 RTR) with Matilda tanks.

The initial Italian invasion force was unmotorized, and after seizing an area of Egypt they settled down in to a series of strongpoints along the coastal road that lacked mutual support. The numerous Italian formations were poorly equipped with armour and lacked mobility. So they were isolated. Jock Columns from 7th Armd were indeed used as O'Connor assembled his forces and made his plan to keep the Italians blind, and they were subsequently used as guard forces. But much of the real work of destroying the strongpoints and setting the Italian army on the retreat was done by tank and infantry attacks supported by Corps and Divisional artillery.

O'Connor carefully planned the offensive after a deliberate estimate of the enemy's capabilities, the difficulties of supply and the nature of his own forces. He knew that the Italians didn't really have answer to the Matilda, so the destruction of Italian strongpoints would be done by Matildas breaking into these positions following Corps artillery preparation and accompanied by infantry. His tactical modification was leading with the Matildas instead of the infantry, but it would all look quite like a Battle Group or brigade attack today. Because the British were able to attack the Italian strongpoints sequentially, the full weight of Corps artillery was available for each attack. Each attack was followed by deliberate sustainment operations for the Matildas to ensure that they were able to get to the next fight. So not very ad-hoc.

The assault on Bardia was preceded by three days of naval gunfire (by three battleships) with over 160 guns from Corps Artillery firing together in support of the break-in. Methodical, meticulous warfare. There was certainly adaptation and improvisation on the ground to account for friction, but this was a deliberate Corps operation.

There were some more ad-hoc groupings for the forces that established the blocking positions to trap the retreating Italians at the conclusion of Operation Compass. "Jock Columns" were used by 7th Armd to guard and demonstrate in support of 4th Indian Divisions assaults on the initial strongpoints and for the subsequent assaults on Bardia and Tobruk. So they were useful, but the real success story was deliberate combined arms with tanks that the Italians had no answer to as the special sauce. Add to that facing a foe in the desert that had no real mobility. None of this takes away from the creativity of O'Connor in his plan, nor from his boldness throughout the campaign. He was willing to take chances in pursuit and this paid-off at the end of Compass. Later 8th Army commanders were not quite as willing to pursue with as much vigour.

The British would be on the receiving end of a similar calculus over much of the same ground when they faced an opponent with a ready answer to Matildas that could execute combined arms at an even higher level.

Back to Canada and the modern day, there is value in having forces that can conduct security operations. A screen provides warning, a guard provides time but operates under the support of the guarded force while a cover protects the covered formation independently. Guards and Covers will almost always have combined arms, with a Cover likely having its own artillery. In a Brigade context, though, you will see Screens and Guards. A CMBG could be a Cover for a higher formation. I think Cavalry is an unfortunate term to use because it unpacks differently for different people.

UAS have absolutely made an impact in security operations and information gathering. Any reconnaissance organization should have some UAS. I think we need to be careful, though, looking at the use of UAS in fairly static battles and making sweeping generalizations about all operations.
 
Back
Top