Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)

[ModlrMike]

S.15 protections are exactly what a number of pretty knowledgeable lawyers were hanging their opinions on when this was discussed at the time of the short-lived move to strip Canadian citizenship from convicted terrorists under the Harper government. And frankly I don’t see it as much of a stretch, or more importantly, that our courts would.

I also believe in handling our own trash. Stripping citizenship is an abrogation of our responsibilities to our own, both good and bad.

The primary issue there is that it would leave a person effectively stateless. This is a violation of international law. Where this may not be an issue, is where a person has citizenship in more than one country, thereby not becoming stateless. Frankly, I don't have a problem with stripping naturalized citizens who have taken up arms against us.

 

[CountDC]

Charter/constitution can be amended and should be.

If they have left Canada and sworn allegiance to another country/terrorist group then they are now recognized as a citizen of that country and not Canada. Let's stop with treating them special. As for dealing with our own garbage, if I put my garbage out to the curb and someone else takes it then it is now their garbage to deal with as they see fit and I don't care about it. Same thing with these people, they left, were taken in, now their problem.

 

[GR66]

Charter/constitution can be amended and should be.

If they have left Canada and sworn allegiance to another country/terrorist group then they are now recognized as a citizen of that country and not Canada. Let's stop with treating them special. As for dealing with our own garbage, if I put my garbage out to the curb and someone else takes it then it is now their garbage to deal with as they see fit and I don't care about it. Same thing with these people, they left, were taken in, now their problem.

Are you suggesting that Canada officially recognize the Caliphate as a sovereign state?

 

[brihard]

Are you suggesting that Canada officially recognize the Caliphate as a sovereign state?

cue frantic backpedalling

Charter/constitution can be amended and should be.

If they have left Canada and sworn allegiance to another country/terrorist group then they are now recognized as a citizen of that country and not Canada. Let's stop with treating them special. As for dealing with our own garbage, if I put my garbage out to the curb and someone else takes it then it is now their garbage to deal with as they see fit and I don't care about it. Same thing with these people, they left, were taken in, now their problem.

What special treatment? Exact same treatment as any and all citizens. Just for fun, how about the handful who are or may be still alive who left Canada to join Daesh before leaving Canada to participate in terrorist activity was even an offense?

I’ll also note that you’re conflating a few different things- citizenship versus right to be returned. The former is inviolable so long as it was honestly gained (meaning absolutely when gained by jus solis or jus sanguinis, and where not gained by misrepresentation in the case of naturalization). The latter has been decided by FCA as there’s no inherent right to be assisted back. We’ll see what SCC says.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think the “right of return“ is still inviolate.

What the Federal Court ruled (I think) was that the Federal Govt has no special obligation to get you out of trouble in a foreign country especially if you are largely responsible for your own misfortune.

 

[brihard]

I think the “right of return“ is still inviolate.

What the Federal Court ruled (I think) was that the Federal Govt has no special obligation to get you out of trouble in a foreign country especially if you are largely responsible for your own misfortune.

The Federal Court actually ruled the opposite of that, but then the Federal Court of Appeal ruled pretty much precisely what you said. That stands unless SCC reverses it partly or wholly.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The Federal Court actually ruled the opposite of that, but then the Federal Court of Appeal ruled pretty much precisely what you said. That stands unless SCC reverses it partly or wholly.

Thanks! Mixed up which court said what.

 

[brihard]

All good, you’re right about the current state of play.

 

[CountDC]

Are you suggesting that Canada officially recognize the Caliphate as a sovereign state?

No, I am saying if they have left Canada to go to another country and join a group there that Canada wash their hands of them, remove their citizenship and recognize them as a member of that nation instead. Yeah, yeah, international law, constitution, etc etc. Amend our own stuff to accomplish the goal and stick to the international law argument that they are citizens of country x iaw our laws so that country can deal with them as they please.

cue frantic backpedalling



What special treatment? Exact same treatment as any and all citizens. Just for fun, how about the handful who are or may be still alive who left Canada to join Daesh before leaving Canada to participate in terrorist activity was even an offense?

I’ll also note that you’re conflating a few different things- citizenship versus right to be returned. The former is inviolable so long as it was honestly gained (meaning absolutely when gained by jus solis or jus sanguinis, and where not gained by misrepresentation in the case of naturalization). The latter has been decided by FCA as there’s no inherent right to be assisted back. We’ll see what SCC says.

No backpedalling at all. I will stick to we should recognize them as citizens of whatever country they went to and let them deal with the punishments of their new nation. Special treatment in my books as they shouldn't be considered Canadian citizens anymore. Call them what you want, Daesh, ISIS, or whatever, they are all the same. So what if they left beforehand, they also decided to stay. Citizenship is only inviolable because we say it is - amend and make it not so.

Yeah I get that my opinion will never happen we will continue to treat them like poor lost children that need our help to care for them.

 

[brihard]

Yeah I get that my opinion will never happen we will continue to treat them like poor lost children that need our help to care for them.

‘Continue to’ suggests this is happening at all. Do you have any evidence that it is? Because I see a government fighting tooth and nail through appeals courts to resist repatriation of the actual fighters, and for the women who went over, criminal charges or terrorism peace bonds as the evidence support. The only ones getting treated like ‘poor children that need our help’ is the actual poor children that actually do need our help because they were born in Kurdish prison camps to CANCITs.

 

[CountDC]

Never said the government, said we, the people of Canada, the press, some politicians that think they will benefit. In a quick search a couple links to the press and family bemoaning their plight. The first one the government didn't fight tooth and nail, they made an agreement instead.

Five Canadians returning from Syria after missing initial repatriation flight | RCI

Two women and three teenage girls were held, mistreated by guards instead of being released for initial flight

ici.radio-canada.ca

“Bring Me Back to Canada”

The 92-page report, “‘Bring Me Back To Canada’: Plight of Canadians Held in Northeast Syria for Alleged ISIS Links,” says that Canada has not brought home any of the estimated 47 Canadians – 8 men, 13 women, and 26 children – detained for more than a year in overcrowded, filthy, and...

www.hrw.org

 

[brihard]

Never said the government, said we, the people of Canada, the press, some politicians that think they will benefit. In a quick search a couple links to the press and family bemoaning their plight. The first one the government didn't fight tooth and nail, they made an agreement instead.

Five Canadians returning from Syria after missing initial repatriation flight | RCI

Two women and three teenage girls were held, mistreated by guards instead of being released for initial flight

ici.radio-canada.ca

“Bring Me Back to Canada”

The 92-page report, “‘Bring Me Back To Canada’: Plight of Canadians Held in Northeast Syria for Alleged ISIS Links,” says that Canada has not brought home any of the estimated 47 Canadians – 8 men, 13 women, and 26 children – detained for more than a year in overcrowded, filthy, and...

www.hrw.org

Yes, I said fighting tooth and nail to avoid repatriating the actual fighters. Much stronger legal case to be made there, and so far succesfully. The women who have returned home have faced varying consequences, dependent on available and admissible evidence. What you posted is completely consistent with what I said.

Also note this post from back in June where the government refused repatriation assistance to one of the women in security grounds:

Update: the Canadian government has determined that a Canadian detained in Syria with her six children will not be repatriated. The kids can come; she cannot due to the ongoing security threat she poses.

Any Canadian who makes it to Canada is entitled to enter and remain in Canada, but it appears the government is willing in at least some cases to use the discretion the Federal Court of Appeal recently reaffirmed.

Montreal woman held in Syria deemed security threat, refused government help returning to Canada | Globalnews.ca

The government said the mother of six could 'act in a violent manner' if she returned to Canada.

globalnews.ca

 

[brihard]

New charges today: one of the women reportedly repatriated in April and hit with a terrorism peace bond has been charged with participating in terrorist activity. She was arrested and has been given bail.

Canadian woman returned from Syria charged with alleged terrorism participation - National | Globalnews.ca

A 29-year-old woman has been charged with alleged participation with a terrorist group after returning from Syria earlier this year, RCMP say.

globalnews.ca

 

[GR66]

New charges today: one of the women reportedly repatriated in April and hit with a terrorism peace bond has been charged with participating in terrorist activity. She was arrested and has been given bail.

Canadian woman returned from Syria charged with alleged terrorism participation - National | Globalnews.ca

A 29-year-old woman has been charged with alleged participation with a terrorist group after returning from Syria earlier this year, RCMP say.

globalnews.ca

That'll teach her!

 

[OldSolduer]

That'll teach her!

Given bail is no surprise in this day and age. Its all OUR fault they are like this.....

 

[brihard]

That'll teach her!

She’s innocent until proven guilty. Bail is a default unless crown shows good cause why there shouldn’t be. In this case it would seem they aren’t concerned about her attending court, nor of her committing any new related offences.

Detention in custody is not pre-conviction punishment, and it actually can significantly reduce a served sentence due to pre-sentence credits that multiply time already served. If they aren’t worried about her skipping court or reoffending, then let the system play out and deal with jail time if and when a sentence comes.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Blasting to the past, remember that federal government framework that was referred to by media and others covering court cases (late 2022-early 2023) re: how much consular help can be given to folks in bits of Syria controlled by Kurds?

Five dollars and eight months later, feel free to peruse the attached framework if you want a more granular idea of the thinking behind some of the work behind the scenes on these folks.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

She’s innocent until proven guilty. Bail is a default unless crown shows good cause why there shouldn’t be. In this case it would seem they aren’t concerned about her attending court, nor of her committing any new related offences.

Detention in custody is not pre-conviction punishment, and it actually can significantly reduce a served sentence due to pre-sentence credits that multiply time already served. If they aren’t worried about her skipping court or reoffending, then let the system play out and deal with jail time if and when a sentence comes.

“Participatng in terrorist activity” should meet the threshold always. Our legal system is toothless and weak.

 

[CountDC]

Detention in custody is not pre-conviction punishment, and it actually can significantly reduce a served sentence due to pre-sentence credits that multiply time already served

Another wonderful part of our system. Serve 6 months detention and get credited a year or more. Crap. Day for day is all it should be.

 

[brihard]

Another wonderful part of our system. Serve 6 months detention and get credited a year or more. Crap. Day for day is all it should be.

I don’t fully agree. Pre-trial remand custody is much tougher than sentenced custody. I understand why some credit is given. I’d rather see the system better resources to move matters through court more promptly.