Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)

[brihard]

They were either directly involved or complicit in crimes against humanity. Let the locals handle it their own way. Possibly bring the children back and put them up for adoption. Canada always seems to try too hard to be Mr. Nice Guy amongst nations. Almost to the point of masochism.

Literally their own way of handling it has been putting her in a detention camp and trying to get her home country, Britain, to repatriate her and deal with her under its laws. Britain has refused. A number of other countries, including ours, are in the process of doing that with their respective citizens. In our case that’s on the strength of a court decision.

Obviously there can be significant challenges to prosecuting criminal offences, but that doesn’t abrogate a country’s responsibility to deal with its own citizens.

She's now actually stateless; she is technically entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship, but only held UK citizenship. Rendering someone stateless is supposed to be illegal under international law, and why would Bangladesh even consider giving her citizenship now anyway?

They should have brought her back and held her accountable IMHO under UK laws for joining ISIS. If citizens have obligations to the state, the state also has obligations to the citizens (as well as other countries for the actions of their citizens).

A 15 year old was basically traffiked outside the UK at the outset, so they shit the bed early on. Sure, it was stupid of her, but if she had actually killed someone in the UK, they would have punished her within the UK legal system.

I don't like it, and didn't like the Khadr payout either, but if the state doesn't live up to their obligations there needs to be consequences of some kind.

Interesting note on this one, although Great Britain is a state party to the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statessness, they signed with an express reservation that they can exempt themselves from the applicability of the convention in cases where a person has behave contrary to their loyalty to His Majesty. Pretty much a disloyalty to the. Action exemption that allows Britain to render individuals stateless notwithstanding the treaty they signed not to.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting note on this one, although Great Britain is a state party to the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statessness, they signed with an express reservation that they can exempt themselves from the applicability of the convention in cases where a person has behave contrary to their loyalty to His Majesty. Pretty much a disloyalty to the. Action exemption that allows Britain to render individuals stateless notwithstanding the treaty they signed not to.

We need that!

 

[Czech_pivo]

You can also bring them home, not give them $10 million, and criminally charge them. We seem to have figured that out as an option already.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6706046

Except for the granting of bail and the assurance that any health care related costs will be charged directly to her or her family up until the point that she is able to legally qualify for Quebec health care since she willing left Canada and has been gone for longer than 183 days. The same with the back filing of taxes.

 

[JLB50]

Literally their own way of handling it has been putting her in a detention camp and trying to get her home country, Britain, to repatriate her and deal with her under its laws. Britain has refused. A number of other countries, including ours, are in the process of doing that with their respective citizens. In our case that’s on the strength of a court decision.

Obviously there can be significant challenges to prosecuting criminal offences, but that doesn’t abrogate a country’s responsibility to deal with its own citizens.



Interesting note on this one, although Great Britain is a state party to the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statessness, they signed with an express reservation that they can exempt themselves from the applicability of the convention in cases where a person has behave contrary to their loyalty to His Majesty. Pretty much a disloyalty to the. Action exemption that allows Britain to render individuals stateless notwithstanding the treaty they signed not to.

But can Canada bring repatriate, prosecute and convict someone for crimes committed against citizens of another country while in a foreign land? I’m also reminded of the WW2 pro-Nazi propagandist known as Lord Haw-Haw (William Joyce). Interesting case, that one. He was actually an American of Irish descent who, after the war, was tried, convicted and executed by the British and, if I recall correctly, was never truly a British subject.

Prosecution can be a tricky bugger for citizens doing bad things abroad. But the way I see it, if they swear allegiance to the Islamic State they have basically said they aren’t really citizens of the country they were born in, that is, unless things go awry with their intended plans to create a kind of terrorist revolution. And then it’s “Pwease, Canada, help wittle ole me…I’m willy a good Canadian. Besides, you wouldn’t hurt a girl would you?”

 

[brihard]

But can Canada bring repatriate, prosecute and convict someone for crimes committed against citizens of another country while in a foreign land? I’m also reminded of the WW2 pro-Nazi propagandist known as Lord Haw-Haw (William Joyce). Interesting case, that one. He was actually an American of Irish descent who, after the war, was tried, convicted and executed by the British and, if I recall correctly, was never truly a British subject.

Prosecution can be a tricky bugger for citizens doing bad things abroad. But the way I see it, if they swear allegiance to the Islamic State they have basically said they aren’t really citizens of the country they were born in, that is, unless things go awry with their intended plans to create a kind of terrorist revolution. And then it’s “Pwease, Canada, help wittle ole me…I’m willy a good Canadian. Besides, you wouldn’t hurt a girl would you?”

Yes, absolutely. The terrorism provisions of the Criminal Code extend extraterritorially. We’re already prosecuting at least one of the women who went over to join ISIS and was repatriated. I linked that one a few days ago. Similarly, the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act allows prosecution of these offenses committed overseas if the accused is a Canadian citizen, or if an accused is not a Canadian citizen but later comes to Canada. It’s not a commonly used law but it’s there and absolutely available. There was something in the news a couple years ago about exactly this being considered for ISIS returnees.

Prosecution obviously isn’t easy, but that’s just the same due process the state has to observe if it charges anyone including you or I. There’s nothing special about these circumstances that would change that.

On the quieter side we also have CSIS, their national security mandate, and their authority to take measures to reduce threats to the security of Canada, including information sharing with police if appropriate and feasible.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yes, absolutely. The terrorism provisions of the Criminal Code extend extraterritorially. We’re already prosecuting at least one of the women who went over to join ISIS and was repatriated. I linked that one a few days ago. Similarly, the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act allows prosecution of these offenses committed overseas if the accused is a Canadian citizen, or if an accused is not a Canadian citizen but later comes to Canada. It’s not a commonly used law but it’s there and absolutely available. There was something in the news a couple years ago about exactly this being considered for ISIS returnees.

Prosecution obviously isn’t easy, but that’s just the same due process the state has to observe if it charges anyone including you or I. There’s nothing special about these circumstances that would change that.

On the quieter side we also have CSIS, their national security mandate, and their authority to take measures to reduce threats to the security of Canada, including information sharing with police if appropriate and feasible.

If the intent to trial them with Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes, then prosecuting them in Den Hague would be my preferred route - bring them out of Canada, away from the 'familiarity of Canada and away from family/friends' and into a neutral site. Also, as of the last 5-7yrs I have more faith in the judicial system in Den Hague for conviction and sentencing than here in Canada

 

[brihard]

If the intent to trial them with Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes, then prosecuting them in Den Hague would be my preferred route - bring them out of Canada, away from the 'familiarity of Canada and away from family/friends' and into a neutral site. Also, as of the last 5-7yrs I have more faith in the judicial system in Den Hague for conviction and sentencing than here in Canada

If you’re referring to the International Criminal Court, then by the Rome statute that’s intended as a ‘court of last resort’ for cases where there isn’t a functioning legal system that can or will exercise jurisdiction over the matter. Also, applicable to at least a few of the ISIS detainees, the ICC cannot act on matters where the accused was under 18.

Because we have a justice system able to handle these cases, referral to ICC is not an option. Also, ICC prosecutions are typically reserved for senior leadership.

Now, could an ad-hoc international tribunal be set up for ISIS, along the lines of what we saw for Yugoslavia? Definitely could be done. But that should still only deal with cases outside the reach of existing justice systems.

 

[OldSolduer]

Also, as of the last 5-7yrs I have more faith in the judicial system in Den Hague for conviction and sentencing than here in Canada

I will agree with that. We have one here that was out for 19 days and allegedly murdered two people in that time. We are a nation of idiots.

 

[Navy_Pete]

We need that!

But why? I'm technically entitled to British citizenship, which I have zero interest in, but don't think that should let the GoC of Canada cancel my citizenship if I got up to something overseas.

Sure, let me rot in a foreign jail (with occasional consular checks) but she's actually an illegal immigrant to Syria they are trying to deport back to her home country. Just because she's brown doesn't mean she isn't British; she was born there to legal immigrants, so is as British as I am Canadian.

 

[Halifax Tar]

But why? I'm technically entitled to British citizenship, which I have zero interest in, but don't think that should let the GoC of Canada cancel my citizenship if I got up to something overseas.

Sure, let me rot in a foreign jail (with occasional consular checks) but she's actually an illegal immigrant to Syria they are trying to deport back to her home country. Just because she's brown doesn't mean she isn't British; she was born there to legal immigrants, so is as British as I am Canadian.

Her being brown has nothing to do with anything. Her willingness to embrace the evil she did does.

It's funny how they don't want to come back until they've had the crap kicked out of them.

I would love for us to have the ability to cast of any obligations we have to people who choose become sworn enemies.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Her being brown has nothing to do with anything. He willingness to embrace the evil did does.

It's funny how they don't want to come back until they've had the crap kicked out of them.

I would love for us to have the ability to cast of any obligations we have to people who choose become sworn enemies.

Right, so I should expect all the convicted terrorists in Northern Ireland to lose their British citizenship now, if this is the precedent. Sure, they may not have citizenship elsewhere, but guess that's not the UK's problem.

If they don't do it to adults who murdered people, bullshit to do it to teenagers who ran away from home and joined terrorists. And they aren't doing it to any IRA wives are they?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Right, so I should expect all the convicted terrorists in Northern Ireland to lose their British citizenship now, if this is the precedent. Sure, they may not have citizenship elsewhere, but guess that's not the UK's problem.

If they don't do it to adults who murdered people, bullshit to do it to teenagers who ran away from home and joined terrorists. And they aren't doing it to any IRA wives are they?

That's a question for the UK.

All I am saying is we need the same option.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's a question for the UK.

All I am saying is we need the same option.

So again I ask, if I go overseas as a teenager and marry a terrorist, is that enough for Canada to revoke my citizenship, even though I don't have any other citizenship? Because that's what happened here, and I suspect there would be a lot more uproar because I'm white.

If you don't believe that's the case, look to the difference between the treatment of refugees from Afgh or Syria compared to the Ukraine. Even interpreters in Afg didn't get the same treatment as Ukranians, and they risked their lives (and their family's lives) to help us.

Systematic racism gets overused, but I think it's pretty self evident here, so we should at least be honest about it. A lot of people who seem to be okay with it are also pretty vocal about not trusting the feds, so don't really get why you'd want to open the door to giving them that kind of authority when you don't think they can find their ass with a map and a sherpa guide.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So again I ask, if I go overseas as a teenager and marry a terrorist, is that enough for Canada to revoke my citizenship, even though I don't have any other citizenship? Because that's what happened here, and I suspect there would be a lot more uproar because I'm white.

If you don't believe that's the case, look to the difference between the treatment of refugees from Afgh or Syria compared to the Ukraine. Even interpreters in Afg didn't get the same treatment as Ukranians, and they risked their lives (and their family's lives) to help us.

Systematic racism gets overused, but I think it's pretty self evident here, so we should at least be honest about it. A lot of people who seem to be okay with it are also pretty vocal about not trusting the feds, so don't really get why you'd want to open the door to giving them that kind of authority when you don't think they can find their ass with a map and a sherpa guide.

Yes it is. You went and committed to an enemy of not only this country but and enemy of Liberal Democracy and universal human rights.

I don't give a shit what color your skin is or how you talk to your god. You pack in with that bunch of folks you shouldnt be welcome here ever again.

Do you think she would be wanting to go home to the UK if her side wasn't vanquished ? She's not repentant for her sins, she's repentant she's for being on the losing and side.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yes it is. You went and committed to an enemy of not only this country but and enemy of Liberal Democracy and universal human rights.

I don't give a shit what color your skin is or how you talk to your god. You pack in with that bunch of folks you shouldnt be welcome here ever again.

Do you think she would be wanting to go home to the UK if her side wasn't vanquished ? She's not repentant for her sins, she's repentant she's for being on the losing and side.

And what exactly do you think will happen to stateless people? If you want to create an incubator for terorrists that's a good start.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And what exactly do you think will happen to stateless people? If you want to create an incubator for terorrists that's a good start.

Pardon me my dear, but I don't give a damn. Turn them loose in the desert and let nature take its course for all I care.

How about hand her over to Afghanistan ? That seems to be her jam.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Pardon me my dear, but I don't give a damn. Turn them loose in the desert and let nature take its course for all I care.

I’d be lying if I didn’t admit I feel pretty much the same. I have little if any sympathy for adults who make adult decisions and then cry when their caliphate dream falls down around them and want to move back into mom and dads.

If they are adults - leave ‘em where they are at. They should be tried in the country they committed their crimes in and face the laws and punishments there. Large groups of female ISIS in camps are continuing the ISIS indoctrination and punishment culture; google “ISIS hesba” and read a few articles.

Like I said - little to no sympathy for adults. ISIS lives on - no one should kid themselves about that or what their goals are…our laws and all pinky finger BS be damned - if they would have gotten their hands on us they’d of roasted the entire crew and played it for the world. Let them live their lives in their camps.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’d be lying if I didn’t admit I feel pretty much the same. I have little if any sympathy for adults who make adult decisions and then cry when their caliphate dream falls down around them and want to move back into mom and dads.

If they are adults - leave ‘em where they are at. They should be tried in the country they committed their crimes in and face the laws and punishments there. Large groups of female ISIS in camps are continuing the ISIS indoctrination and punishment culture; google “ISIS hesba” and read a few articles.

Like I said - little to no sympathy for adults. ISIS lives on - no one should kid themselves about that or what their goals are…our laws and all pinky finger BS be damned - if they would have gotten their hands on us they’d of roasted the entire crew and played it for the world. Let them live their lives in their camps.

There's a good opportunity to keep them in limbo somewhere and turn them into anti-ISIS spies.

Or whatever the appropriate lingo is these days for that process

 

[daftandbarmy]

He joined ISIS AFTER he released from the CAF, AFTER

Canadian Forces reservist died fighting with ISIS​

Canadian Forces reservist died fighting with ISIS | Globalnews.ca

Investigators said Bilal Khan, a former reservist from Hamilton, was the only known Canadian ex-soldier to join the ISIS terrorist group.

globalnews.ca

 

[CountDC]

But the head line makes it so much more attention grabbing.