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Boot, General Purpose (Mk III acting/interim replacement)

Ecco said:
Actually, the Mondopoint system has 72 sizes.  Some people argue we should go to 74 sizes.  Watch and shoot on that one.

Sorry, 92 -- 72 -- typo.  :-\

The mm from the mondopoint is supposed to be the millimeter widths of the "free space" inside the boots isn't it? One would think that XXX mm of "freespace" = XXX mm of "freespace" even from manufacturer to manufacturer. Materials may change, but the actual size of a millimeter isn't supposed to. No wonder I failed math.  ;D
 
If our feet were only two dimensional, this would be so much easier.

 
Similar to clothing from different companies, one size might fit perfectly but the same size by another maker might not fit at all.

Boots and shoes are very different, as said each mfg has a last that they are made on.  Some are hand made while others are machine made.  Even lasts from the same mfg can be different for each style of boot or shoe they make.  

Retailers, distributors and mfg have major problems with supplying footwear, so this is one area where the CF can't be faulted in any way.
 
MCG said:
If our feet were only two dimensional, this would be so much easier.

It is also so much cheaper to dress paper dolls.  ;D

But I still fail to understand how exactly:

240 mm "freespace" in length does not equal 240 mm "freespace" in length in another boot regardless of manufacturer. Freespace = room to accomodate foot "inside" the boot from material covering at the heel to material covering at the toe. 240mm of space for your foot. Not 238mm of space for your foot because material is taking up 2mm, else it's only a size 238, not 240.  ???

That is supposed to be how the specs work ... or so we've always been led to believe.  :-\

(And, yes, we understand that socks make a difference -- which is exactly why we tell all personnel whom we are sizing, to wear the socks or combination of socks that they will be wearing daily in the boots while being sized.)


 
ArmyVern said:
(And, yes, we understand that socks make a difference -- which is exactly why we tell all personnel whom we are sizing, to wear the socks or combination of socks that they will be wearing daily in the boots while being sized.)

I heard that. Young Pte at supply tried to tell me he could only size me if I wore the "sock system" black and green socks, not the Thorlos I normally wear. I politely told said Pte that I have never EVER worn the green socks and now choose to only wear the socks I have on.

Needless to say I don't think I have a pr of these new Boot GPs that fit. (I love how the quick laces touch each other above the ankle)
 
St. Micheals Medical Team said:
I heard that. Young Pte at supply tried to tell me he could only size me if I wore the "sock system" black and green socks, not the Thorlos I normally wear. I politely told said Pte that I have never EVER worn the green socks and now choose to only wear the socks I have on.

Needless to say I don't think I have a pr of these new Boot GPs that fit. (I love how the quick laces touch each other above the ankle)

We'd have let you wear the socks that you wear daily here -- that only makes ... (ugghhh here's that word again) "sense".

Some people must really learn to inject it more often than not.

My laces don't touch -- I have fat calves!!  :-\
 
I have a 2 pairs.  I just put on the second pair for the first time the other day and I must say, the breaking in period for me (NONE!!!) was great!
 
ArmyVern said:
that only makes ... (ugghhh here's that word again) "sense".

Some people must really learn to inject it more often than not.
Well Vern, until QM starts issuing out Sense to the entire CF, it will just be another piece of unauthorized kit nobody will be legally allowed to use.
 
St. Micheals Medical Team said:
Well Vern, until QM starts issuing out Sense to the entire CF, it will just be another piece of unauthorized kit nobody will be legally allowed to use.

Contrary to popular belief "common sense" is an entitlement item on the D01 scale series. Way too many folks have yet to stop buy and pick up their allotment of it though.
 
Vern, I have a question for you.

My daughter is currently wearing size 21588 boots.  They are too big on her (supply told her they were the smallest) but she's muddled through her BMQ in them with extra socks.  Is that size the smallest made, or could it be just the smallest left in the St. Jean supply (now that they are changing boots)?  She's moving to Borden on Friday, so perhaps she should see whay they have there?? Yes? No?  Advice?

P.S.  I know she's a big girl and can ask these questions on her own, but being a MamaBear and now suffering the empty nest syndrome  :'(     I have to meddle just a little  ;)
 
MamaBear said:
Vern, I have a question for you.

My daughter is currently wearing size 21588 boots.  They are too big on her (supply told her they were the smallest) but she's muddled through her BMQ in them with extra socks.  Is that size the smallest made, or could it be just the smallest left in the St. Jean supply (now that they are changing boots)?  She's moving to Borden on Friday, so perhaps she should see whay they have there?? Yes? No?  Advice?

P.S.  I know she's a big girl and can ask these questions on her own, but being a MamaBear and now suffering the empty nest syndrome  :'(     I have to meddle just a little  ;)

215/88 ... have no idea off the top of my head if they are the smallest size or not. I can check for you on Monday (I'm on course this week) and get back to you. Adding more socks just makes for ... blisters and foot problems. Not good.

Bottom line though, if they ARE the smallest size and they ARE too big for her -- she needs (and IS entitled to) customs.
 
Actually -- I'll pop over to Clothing tomorrow at lunch to find out what the smallest size is. If they are the smallest, I'll post that up and I'll post up the ref for customs for you to pass along to her ... mom (I'm a mom too -- I know how it works, sometimes you just can't sit back and watch no matter how much you know you should; that's acceptable  ;D).  :)
 
Thanks Vern, that's much appreciated.... AND the comment about Mom's rights!  I will pass along any info to her, but as you probably know THAT will have to be handled delicately so as not to alert her "Mother's being a PITA senses".

One Mom to Another.  :)
 
ArmyVern said:
But I still fail to understand how exactly:
(...)
That is supposed to be how the specs work ... or so we've always been led to believe.  :-\

Let me try an explication, it might not make much "sense", but it explains the challenge. In summary, the sizes refer to the lasts, not to the freespace in the boot.

In 1997, DRDC Toronto conducted a CF anthropometric survey: They took hundreds of body dimensions measurements from more than 5000 CF members, reg and reserve, from all trades and all part of the country.  They wrote a thick report giving average sizes of CF personnel, including foot sizes.

The Mondopoint sizing system was used to measure the foot (it's metric and more accurate than US/UK measures) in a graph, horizontal is length, vertical is width, forming an oval cloud of sizes.  The 98% of the population was divided in little boxes and they needed 72 of those boxes.  Afterwards, they took the 72 sizes, added the thickness of the CTS Combat Sock System (black liner and green sock) and created 288 (72 left and 72 right, 72 left safety toed and 72 right safety toed) anatomically correct shapes of the typical CF foot. They are yellow plastic foot shapes.  The last system is called DND 601.

The manufacturers of nationally procured CF footwear have to buy and use the DND 601 lasts to build their footwear.  The boot is built around a last of a certain size.  Now, a 215/88 DND 601 last is the same exact 3D shape for all manufacturers (same width and length and height...), however, each manufacturer builds the footwear differently.  Sometimes, they stretch the box toe covering material by hand and sew it to the insole.  Other manufacturers use a machine to stretch the material in place.  The second manufacturer will make a tighter boot around the last than the first one, etc...  The glues that are used to hold pieces together have different drying rates, etc...  Some manufacturers build the complete upper and than attach it to the insole, while others build the boot from the outsole up, piece by piece.  At the end of the 100-odd manufacturing steps, before finishing and QA, the last is broken out of the boot and used again. 

In theory, using the same lasts should provide same sizes of boots, however, as you will most likely agree, the fitting of a boot is different between users, some like it tight, some prefer looser, etc...  It's the same for manufacturers...

Edited for spelling
 
Oh gawd -- 20 years to hear that now. Time to retire I guess and ride off into the sunset -- where I'll still fail math no doubt.
 
Ecco said:
In 1997, DRDC Toronto conducted a CF anthropomorphic survey: They took hundreds of body dimensions measurements from more than 5000 CF members, reg and reserve, from all trades and all part of the country.  They wrote a thick report giving average sizes of CF personnel, including foot sizes.

I was one of those people measured.  Our unit deliberately sent the smaller and larger people to represent the different ends of the scale.
Your mention of "average" sizes, leads me to believe that other people measured were of "average" size.
 
Ecco said:
Let me try an explication, it might not make much "sense", but it explains the challenge. In summary, the sizes refer to the lasts, not to the freespace in the boot.

In 1997, DRDC Toronto conducted a CF anthropometric survey: They took hundreds of body dimensions measurements from more than 5000 CF members, reg and reserve, from all trades and all part of the country.  They wrote a thick report giving average sizes of CF personnel, including foot sizes.

The Mondopoint sizing system was used to measure the foot (it's metric and more accurate than US/UK measures) in a graph, horizontal is length, vertical is width, forming an oval cloud of sizes.  The 98% of the population was divided in little boxes and they needed 72 of those boxes.  Afterwards, they took the 72 sizes, added the thickness of the CTS Combat Sock System (black liner and green sock) and created 288 (72 left and 72 right, 72 left safety toed and 72 right safety toed) anatomically correct shapes of the typical CF foot. They are yellow plastic foot shapes.  The last system is called DND 601.

The manufacturers of nationally procured CF footwear have to buy and use the DND 601 lasts to build their footwear.  The boot is built around a last of a certain size.  Now, a 215/88 DND 601 last is the same exact 3D shape for all manufacturers (same width and length and height...), however, each manufacturer builds the footwear differently.  Sometimes, they stretch the box toe covering material by hand and sew it to the insole.  Other manufacturers use a machine to stretch the material in place.  The second manufacturer will make a tighter boot around the last than the first one, etc...  The glues that are used to hold pieces together have different drying rates, etc...   Some manufacturers build the complete upper and than attach it to the insole, while others build the boot from the outsole up, piece by piece.  At the end of the 100-odd manufacturing steps, before finishing and QA, the last is broken out of the boot and used again. 

In theory, using the same lasts should provide same sizes of boots, however, as you will most likely agree, the fitting of a boot is different between users, some like it tight, some prefer looser, etc...  It's the same for manufacturers...

Edited for spelling

This indeed is very informative.  I find it interesting though, that despite great effort given to build a set of metrics for a set of boot lasts which are now CF standards, the variations in manufacturing techniques can greatly alter the overall fit of the boot. 
 
MamaBear said:
Thanks Vern, that's much appreciated.... AND the comment about Mom's rights!  I will pass along any info to her, but as you probably know THAT will have to be handled delicately so as not to alert her "Mother's being a PITA senses".

One Mom to Another.  :)

All righty, here we go:

Boots, Wet Weather:
Smallest size:  215/88
Largest size:  300/114

Boots, Interim GP:
Smallest size:  215/88
Largest size:  305/116 

Pers who do not fit into these stocked size ranges are entitled to custom footwear. They do NOT need a medical chit -- this is a sizing issue, not a medical one. The Crown is obligated to pay the expense for such instances. Entitlement is to two (2) pair of each boot type.

Once placed into custom (or LPOd from downtown footwear), the purchased/custom footwear is put onto the member's charge on their clothing docs utilizing the two below NSNs:

Wet Weather Boots:   21-921-3532 Boots, WW, S/S
Boots, Interim, GP:  20-001-9369 Boots, Interim GP S/S

From the CFSM (Canadian Forces Supply Manual) Vol 3, Ch 13, Sec G, Art 002, para 5b:
Ref: CFSM 3-13G-002.5b

Hyper link to CFSM

3-13G-002. Special size personal allotment clothing, footwear and orthopaedic furniture

4.  Special size clothing:

a.  Except for those non-stocked items, which are normally issued as made-to-measure, every effort shall be made to equip personnel from standard or peripheral stock sizes. This includes carrying out minor alterations and adjustments to obtain a reasonable fit. Because of the tolerances allowed in the production of garments, attempts should be made to fit personnel before resorting to Special Clothing Size Roll procedures.

b.  Personnel who cannot be equipped with standard or peripheral size garments are entitled to the issue of special size items for actual requirements, not exceeding the quantity authorized by the applicable EGC.

c.  When uniforms or other articles of clothing require special procurement. For example, a size not stocked at any level, B/W/S Sup O shall confirm all requests prior to initiating procurement action. Prices are obtained from local manufacturers and procurement action is taken IAW DAOD 3004. Bases, stations, and wings fund special size requirements from Command allotments. If an individual is undergoing training at a unit other than his home unit, funding for special size clothing, footwear, and equipment should be requested from the individual’s home unit.

d.  Under no circumstances shall personnel be permitted to provide materiel for manufacture of special size clothing. The base/station/wing requisition materiel in the normal manner if available from the system, it must be ordered from Logistik Unicorp after obtaining a valid stock number from the C3-01 Coordinator. Uniform specifications must also be obtained from Director Soldier Systems Program Management (DSSPM C3-01 Contract Coordinator) and obtain uniform specifications from Director Soldier Systems Program Management (DSSPM C3 Contract Coordinator) for guidance to manufacturers. The supply of materiel and specifications to the manufacturer from the system ensures a high standard of uniformity in dress. Normally, special size clothing shall not be ordered for individuals during their last six months of service.

e.  To obtain special size clothing, form DND 2160 (21-883-2991), Special Clothing Size Roll (men) or form DND 2159 (21-870-7580), Special Clothing Size Roll (women), as applicable, shall be prepared in 3 copies with distribution as follows:

i.  Two copies to manufacturer
ii. One copy to be filed in individuals CF 892
Note: Manufacturers may elect to use their own sizing forms. In this case, sufficient copies are obtained to meet distribution requirements.

f.  Where there is a major discrepancy between the garment and the size roll, the following standardized procedure is implemented:

i. The unit tailor or qualified service personnel measure the individual, check the size roll for correctness, chalk mark the garment where incorrect and detail the alterations required for a proper fit.
ii. The contractor verifies the discrepancies between the garment and size roll and if it cannot be satisfactorily altered, the contractor is requested to manufacture a new garment.
iii. Invoices are held pending receipt of a satisfactory garment.

g.  Where garments are received and rejected for reasons other than a   contractor’s deficiency, disposal action is to be initiated. A new order shall be initiated to satisfy the individual.

h.  When a contractor is not available in the vicinity of the base/station/wing, orders are placed directly to the nearest available manufacturer. B/W/S Sup O shall ensure that only unit civilian tailors or qualified service personnel measure individuals for special size clothing using the guidelines detailed. These measurements must be typed or legibly written on the Special Size Roll. Districts carry out minor alterations upon receipt to ensure a satisfactory fit. However, where there is an obvious discrepancy between the garment and the size roll, items are returned collect to the manufacturer accompanied by a letter detailing the reason for return.

i.  When special size clothing is ordered for an individual MSO014 Supply Customer Maintenance shall be used to annotate the member’s IA (special instructions) with the special size requirements. Item(s) should be brought on charge using special size NSN for that particular garment.

j.  Except in the case of an occupational transfer, special size roll public clothing issued to an individual shall not be withdrawn when the employment justifying its issue ceases; the individual retains that clothing, if serviceable, during his period of service.

5.  Special size footwear:

a.  The following definitions are provided for the purpose of this article:

i.  Orthoses: Is an orthopaedic appliance or apparatus used to support, align, prevent or correct deformities or to improve function of moveable parts of the body. One common example is a custom foot insole. 
ii.  Orthopaedic Footwear: Is custom footwear required by individuals with deformed or surgically treated feet. This includes custom-made military pattern footwear, and internal or external modifications to military and civilian footwear. Orthopaedic footwear is funded by the Command Surgeon.

b.  If after being fitted IAW Measuring and fitting of footwear (3-13G-003) an individual is found to have a foot size, which does not fall within the range of standard catalogue footwear sizes and does not require orthopaedic footwear, the individual will be provided with special size footwear. B/W/S are responsible to fund these requirements through their Command allotments. All special size boots are free issue to all Regular and Reserve force members. Supply sections shall ensure the member receives footwear that fits properly and that meets performance and quality standards equivalent to the authorized CF footwear to which the member is entitled as defined in the applicable scales of issue. Special size safety footwear must meet the safety standards of the regulation footwear. Supply sections are under no obligation to procure brand name footwear. The procedures for Special size shoes/oxfords is covered at para 7.

c.  Athletic Shoes will only be issued to recruits on a one time basis and will not be exchangeable or available for purchase.  CF members Regular and Reserve force are responsible for the purchase of athletic shoes upon completion of recruit training.   The only exception would be for a member who has suffered a CF related injury or has surgically treated feet and requires a custom build athletic shoe.  In these rare cases the athletic shoe would be purchased by supply and funded by the Command Surgeon.
Note:  Class “A” Reservists shall only be issued one pair of Special Size Boots or Oxfords/Shoes as applicable. For example if an individual is entitled to one pair of shoes and two pair of boots the individual shall be issued one pair of shoes and one pair of boots. If the individual is converted to “B” or “C” class they shall be issued their full entitlement.

d.  When special size footwear is ordered for an individual Supply Customer Maintenance MSO014 shall be used to annotate the member’s IA (special instructions) with the special size requirements. Item(s) should be brought on charge using the stock code of the closest size, taking caution to ensure that the total quantity (comprised of current balance, dues-in and special size items) does not exceed the district ROP/ROQ, which in turn could result in redistribution. Each time the individual requires footwear; the IA shall be checked to ascertain when the item was previously issued. Normally, special size footwear shall not be ordered for individuals during their last six months of service.

e.  Individuals whose foot size falls within the range of standard catalogue sizes and who do not accept the service footwear shall be advised to obtain footwear from other sources at their own expense. To ensure uniformity and quality of dress, CF personnel shall select commercial footwear that conforms as closely as possible to the standards of the regulation footwear. 

f.  Special size footwear issued to an individual shall not be withdrawn when the employment justifying its issue ceases. The individual retains the footwear during his entire period of service.

6.  Orthopaedic and modified footwear:

a.  When recommended by a medical board or specialist, individuals with deformed or surgically treated feet shall be provided with specially made or modified footwear in lieu of regulation boots and shoes.

b.  Orthopaedic footwear shall be obtained through a Federal, Provincial or local orthopaedic and prosthetic facility IAW MSI 7000-011 Footwear requiring modification shall be altered as required by the same orthopaedic facility or by local procurement when authorized by the base medical officer, at no expense to the individual.

c.  Special Size Orthopaedic boots and modification to boots are always at no cost to the member.  Special Size Orthopaedic Boots shall be brought on charge by CRV and entered on the individual’s IA.  Only the initial issue of Orthopaedic shoes/oxfords are free issue, procedures are detailed in para 7 of this article. 

d.  Normally orthopaedic footwear shall not be ordered for individuals during their last six months of service.

e.  Orthopaedic footwear obtained as per MSI 7000-011 is paid for by the appropriate Command Surgeon.

7.  Special Size Shoes/Oxfords

a.  Special size shoes/oxfords are free issue upon enrolment.  Following enrolment special size shoe requirements must be purchased using applicable points for shoes/oxfords. If points are not available, member is required to purchase the shoes as per the price indicated using MSO101, option 1, action code “9.”  There are only two exceptions, which allow the free issue of shoes/oxfords following an individual’s enrolment:

i.  The initial issue of shoes/oxfords as a result of a change in medical condition which requires shoes to accommodate orthoses such as arch supports, special insoles etc. The member must present the prescription or medical chit to Clothing Stores to be entitled to the initial free issue. The initial issue is funded by the supporting supply section through Command allotments. All subsequent requirements must be paid for using the applicable points for shoes/oxfords or funded by the member as per the price indicated using MSO101, option 1, action code “9” Clothing Stores must forward details of special size shoe purchases including members name, SN, item purchased to DSSPM email who will have the applicable number of points removed from the members account.
ii.  The initial issue of Orthopaedic or modified shoes/oxfords are free issue, and funded by the Command Surgeon. Any subsequent issues must be paid for using the applicable number of points for shoes/oxfords or funded by the member with the price indicated using MSO101 option “9." Orthopaedic footwear is defined at Para 5a. Clothing Stores must forward details of purchase to DSSPM so points can be removed, same procedure as for special size shoes. A copy of the medical officer’s recommendation is to be filed in the individual’s CF 892, and Supply Customer Maintenance MSO014 shall be used to annotate the member’s IA (special instructions) with the appropriate information.

8.  Resoling of MKIII combat boots NSN 8430-21-872-4291

a.  Resoling is limited to the MKIII combat boot only, Medical Specialist Officers and GDMO are the only authority that can prescribe replacement of the insole and outsole components. Funding for the replacement of components is the responsibility of the supporting supply section through their command allotments as per the special funding requirements.

b.  In the event that resoling of the MKIII is prescribed alteration specifications should be coordinated between the Medical Officer and the physiotherapist. NDHQ/DSSPM 2-3 is available to provide technical assistance, as required. 

c.  In the event that resoling is prescribed to alleviate a medical condition diagnosed IAW policies established in MSI 7000-011, the following specifications should be followed:

i.  Materiel - Vibram “Sierra” (Model #1276) or Vibram “Kletterlift” (Model #148) outsole with a cushion midsole of polyurethane.
ii.  Thickness - The thickness of the polyurethane should be sufficient to maintain the original heel elevation of the boot. It should generally run from approximately 1 inch thick at the heel to a third of an inch - to half an inch at the ball and toe.

9.  Orthopaedic furniture. Orthopaedic furniture shall only be procured for individuals whose requirements have been given a prognosis and have been identified on an appropriate certificate signed by a medical doctor or chiropractor. A copy of the medical certificate shall be filed in the member's CF 892.  It is a unit responsibility to fund orthopaedic furniture requirements. Issues of orthopaedic chairs or furniture shall be classified as personal allotments and shall be documented on the individual’s IA special instructions using Supply Customer Maintenance MSO014. Stock number 21AAE4895 shall be used to issue orthopaedic chairs to a member’s IA.

10.  Retention on posting of special size/orthopaedic clothing, footwear and equipment. When an individual is posted, transferred or seconded to another department the base/station/wing shall ensure that special size/orthopaedic items accompany the individual. In the case of furniture, these items may accompany individuals provided that there is departmental agreement that such transfers are cost beneficial.

Also, please note that I have highlighted para 5e in red font: This para is the authority for personnel who do not wish to wear issued boots to procure and wear civilian pattern footwear using their own monies provided that those purchased boots generally resemble issued boots (ie are black/leather etc).



 
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