Bigger army

[FormerHorseGuard]

here is a thought or two I have today  on this matter

1) CDS goes to the  Minister of Defence ,  gets told the job they want him to do , CDS picks the units, the man power etc, goes back to the MofD says this  is what  we have for the mission and it costs X dollars. MofD pays X dollars, No more of the leaders setting the mandates and trying to decided what  they want to send or could send. We pay a lot of Generals to make the decesion, let them make them un altered .

2) equipment matters,  CDS looks at requirements and what  is need now, what  is needed this year, and what  is needed in the future, gives list to MoD , MoD  instead of farming it out to various little companies to do the make work projects , he gets it attached to other NATO standing bids, who cares where the truck is made, if it can fit the bill, keep costs down, be on time with delivery dates,  spares parts are easy  to aquire,  it does not have to be made in Canada, or designed here. It just has to work here and work over seas. No more of taking it and redesigning it to fit Canadian content.

3) weapons & equipment .  airforce, navy  and army should have 3 lists : list  what  they  need right now to do a job, what  they  need to maintain what  they have, long term needs.  start replacing equipment before it is so old museums have the spare parts on display,  instead of buying 1500 new trucks in one year buy  the same number of trucks over 5 years so they  do not all wear out at same time.

4) Troop level,  Reg Force should have full size units,  a company, sqn, air wing, ships company, full size, put the man power where it is needed.Equip to full size units, no need to borrow or fake exercises, do not learn from driving a  truck with the wrod tank on the side and pretending it is a tank. Real equipment will train better soldiers. Res forces will always have a manning problem, solutions are many, but none will work with out laws in affect to protect jobs at home.

5) Money increase the budgets,  increase the budgets, and did I say  increase the budgets.  Spend money  now before we have to replace an entire navy or air force and replace all the equipment the army has. Increase pay  and benefits to keep the troops on the job. Provide better care for them at home so they want to stay  in and serve . Increase budgets to pay  for what  is needed, and pay  for less  pf the unneeded stuff like new office decorations, less pay for VIP non sense, I know the VIP stuff is important but do not need spend as much as they spend,  fancy  dinners and stuff feed thme mres or excess rations from the mess hall



I use the trucks thing as example, but i think most major purchases should be looked at way. every Nato nation is buying new equipment,  bulk orders do keep costs down.

 

[mdh]

Quote "Mr. McCallum said he can't impose a 100 per cent bilingualism requirement on a military that is already overworked and overstressed from repeated overseas deployments."

Or is he uninformed too?

Oh he was pretty uninformed. He couldn't quite get the difference between Vimy and Vichy.

However I think I get your point.

 

[paracowboy]

Well you asked who said that they are over worked.

Quote "Mr. McCallum said he can't impose a 100 per cent bilingualism requirement on a military that is already overworked and overstressed from repeated overseas deployments."

Or is he uninformed too?

you're going off a year-old article quoting McCallum? The media quotes a politican (and an idiot, or is that redundant? But I digress) and THAT's you're evidence? You're disputing actual troops based on the words of a habitual liar as quoted by habitual liars?

 

[paracowboy]

All the crap we do in Canada is just practicing. The job is out there.

just realized this isn't complete:

All the crap we do in Canada is just practicing. The job is out there. And we'd best to get to work before the unthinkable happens, and we actually have to go to work HERE.

 

[Gunner98]

Young KH

Bill Graham was appointed Minister of National Defence on July 20, 2004.  I think Mr. Graham would be more appropriate to quote, but I doubt one year after his appointment, you would find him spewing the same sound bite.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I had the opportunity to have a "one on one" with McCallum when he visited us in Kabul. Let's just say he epitomised everything I believe of our usless politicians.  :

 

[Young KH]

Well I am a bit at a loss here in some postings people want more Army, others just want more money still other want bigger and better toys. There are some saying that they don't have time for proper training because they are on the go all the time. Some seem to be saying that all they do is sit around rotting in Canada. Some say everything is hunky Dorey, others say that there is no money for training and others say that every body is throwing it around like confetti. Who is right?

Is the concept of Volunteering for an over seas posting no longer there?
Is there no one out there that would like the Infantry Batallions filled with a full complament of men who are properly trained, equipped and supported?
Is there no one out there that feels we should be able to deploy our own troops when and where we want to?

If not what is this site and the posting Bigger Army for?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If not what is this site and the posting Bigger Army for?

To keep old delusional reprobates occupied asking inane questions.

 

[Gunner98]

YKH restarted this thread after a 5 year silence by suggesting the Army needs 20,000 more troops, WOW - WHAT A CONCEPT!  

There are approx. 1,000 Regulars awaiting further training in Borden - can you imagine how long the current system would take to absorb, train and post 20,000 soldiers.   We can't find 3,000 or 5,000 so let's set our sights real high and aim for the stars.  

He went on to say, "Anyway it might not solve everything but it would make life better all around if the troops (Army, Navy and Air Force) could depend on their equipment and because of specialization, they would know exactly what was expected of them and would have enough support to be replaced long enough to train and advance in the chosen Armed Forces careers."  

I will humour him with a few more responses:

Is the concept of Volunteering for an over seas posting no longer there?   Unless your unit is deploying or you are in special MOS/MOC you are out of luck, volunteer in vain.

Is there no one out there that would like the Infantry Batallions filled with a full complament of men who are properly trained, equipped and supported?   Since the Inf don't always take the lead on deployments and it is never more than a Coy in the larger contingent, does it really matter how full the Inf Bns are.

Is there no one out there that feels we should be able to deploy our own troops when and where we want to?   If we were to deploy our own troops without Government approval (which takes far too long) I think that would a little too rebellious for most Cdns to handle.

The current 90-day waiver system post-deployments sees some people constantly away from home - the healthy, good guys (regardless of trade) anyways.   The Army and the CF isn't all about the Infantry.

 

[KevinB]

Is there no one out there that would like the Infantry Batallions filled with a full complament of men who are properly trained, equipped and supported?   Since the Inf don't always take the lead on deployments and it is never more than a Coy in the larger contingent, does it really matter how full the Inf Bns are.

Cough Cough - Ahem...

I think less than a Bn is the oddity - only ones I can recall are Roto II,III and IV

 

[Young KH]

My God Man, Gunner98,

The only quote you got right was the question about Volunteering.

I didn't say we needed another 20,000. What I said is that the as some in here call them Bayonets need to be brought up to 20,000 men and with full support.

The WE on deploying was meant to mean CANADA not we soldiers on our own, Wake UP. You know Transport ships or planes or both. So that we do not have to beg our friends (which most seem to think aren't) to transport us.

That we can't find 3 or 4 thousand troops willing to join is Bull. That we have made the standards too high and the process too long is more to the point.

That the (and let me quote you exactly here)â ? Since the Inf don't always take the lead on deployments and it is never more than a Coy in the larger contingent, does it really matter how full the Inf Bns areâ ? Is almost as bad as walking around with your eyes closed.

The Terrorists are not finished yet, what has happened in the US, Spain, England, and now Egypt, is some day going to come our way, it's only a matter of time before they get around to us. No Arab Nation can afford Democracy in one of their Nations to work, because if it does none of the rulers be they Dictators, sheikdoms or Kingdome will survive for long. We (and I mean Democracy) are a threat to them and their hold on the people. Us (and here I mean the USA) trying to impose our way of life is curtain death to their control over the masses. So the terrorist are well funded and supplied. This isn't a war between two opposing religions no matter how many people try to make it seem that way; it is a conflict to the death between Democracy and Absolute Rulers. Neither of us can afford to lose this one.

When it happens and I do mean when not if, the problem is where are the troops going to come from to protect our HOMES and people? At this time we don't have the troops to protect Montreal and Toronto let alone adding Vancouver, Regina and Winnipeg to the list. And No I can't prove that , no one can, but if the FLQ, 1970, Oct crises thought us anything, it was that we (The Armed Forces) are not big enough to take on even two cities of any size and protect them. The Police won't be able to handle it, nor can the Navy and Air Force, as for the support groups, I'm sure that they would try but then who is to support them. We need Grunts, foot soldiers and sooner the better. They will need training and I don't mean War training, I mean Police training, the type used for what is coming. It is a War but not a war like any of us here, have ever seen. It will be a long war maybe as long as 10 years. Wake up and smell the coffee man.

Now go ahead guys and rip me apart once again because I dare to have an opinion.

 

[paracowboy]

Is the concept of Volunteering for an over seas posting no longer there?   Unless your unit is deploying or you are in special MOS/MOC you are out of luck, volunteer in vain.

all too true.

Is there no one out there that would like the Infantry Batallions filled with a full complament of men who are properly trained, equipped and supported?  Since the Inf don't always take the lead on deployments and it is never more than a Coy in the larger contingent, does it really matter how full the Inf Bns are.

'scuse me? A BN is the norm. These last few Rotos in A-stan have been oddities. As Kevin already pointed out.

Is there no one out there that feels we should be able to deploy our own troops when and where we want to?  If we were to deploy our own troops without Government approval (which takes far too long) I think that would a little too rebellious for most Cdns to handle.

I think it's quite clear he means "we" as in Canada, not "we" as in the Armed Forces or Army.ca, for that matter. And he has a definite point. We can't get anything, or anyone, anywhere on our own.

The current 90-day waiver system post-deployments sees some people constantly away from home - the healthy, good guys (regardless of trade) anyways.  The Army and the CF isn't all about the Infantry.

no, of course not. It's also about supporting the Infantry.

 

[paracowboy]

The WE on deploying was meant to mean CANADA not we soldiers on our own, Wake UP. You know Transport ships or planes or both. So that we do not have to beg our friends (which most seem to think aren't) to transport us.

see? Toldyaso!

That we can't find 3 or 4 thousand troops willing to join is Bull. That we have made the standards too high and the process too long is more to the point.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA! Standards are too high? If you honestly believe that, then you're high! Little girls and middle-aged men are passing Basic. We aren't allowed to fail anyone anymore. We look like the Volksgard (sp) in '45, fer chrissake!

When it happens and I do mean when not if, the problem is where are the troops going to come from to protect our HOMES and people? At this time we don't have the troops to protect Montreal and Toronto let alone adding Vancouver, Regina and Winnipeg to the list.

so you think we'll put the entire nation under Martial Law, with troops on every corner, sandbagged in? What next? Torchlight parades?

They will need training and I don't mean War training, I mean Police training, the type used for what is coming.

wrong. Very wrong. War training is precisely what the troops need. Relevent training to the new type of war. We do NOT serve and protect. We close with and destroy. The line must be maintained or we lose the very freedom we fight to protect. Troops need to learn to fight an asymetrical war. And we are.

It is a War but not a war like any of us here, have ever seen. It will be a long war maybe as long as 10 years.

longer.

Now go ahead guys and rip me apart once again because I dare to have an opinion.

oh, suck it up. Nobody's ripping you apart because you have opinions. They're ripping you apart because you're wrong. You're wrong because you're out of the loop on certain specifics, and are trying to debate with the very people who are the most in those loops.

 

[Young KH]

Thanks paracowboy,

But I don't mid being riped apart, as it goes with the territory. Besides it give people a reason to talk and make suggestions and that can only help.

As for being wrong, well only time will prove that.

As for being out of the loop, was never in it to start with. The Army as I remember it was us Grunts (with no knowledge) took orders from Sgt. and Lt. (with very little knowledge) who were themselves taking orders from Majors (with a bit of Knowledge) who took orders from Lieutenant Colonel (with some knowledge) then full colonels (with a bit more) then to Generals who think they have all the facts who take there orders from Poloticions who know less then the grunts. So I feel in good company.

Good night folks.

 

[CF-22 Raptor]

Hi everybody, i'm new to this forum anyways in my opinion, Canada has a small military and a small budget. Therefore we should value quality over quantity. I think that we have about 16 000 in the army, so why not give them all the latest toys and gadgets?

I mean how much can it cost to buy top of the line NVG, body armor and guns? Granted vehicles will cost more, but why not spend most of the budget making the infantry happy, before we move on upgrading tanks and APCs? Canada's pretty much a neutral country (can anybody name some enemies?) therefore we have time to gather money and spend them upgrading the CF bit by bit while using the remainder of the budget to maintain the efficiency of other services before it's their turn to have a slice of the pie.

I think the CF should increase funds to their army. My reasoning is that it'll be a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain 800 men than to maintain a jet, or a ship. The cost of a CF-18 would probably equal the cost of 4 or 5 leopards or give 1000 soldiers top of the line equipment.

The is how I think the military should spend their money:

Step 1. Give infantary top of the line equpiment - the best of the best
Step 2. Slowly upgrade canada's armoured division, UAVs, more leopards, and APCs etc
Step 3. Aquire a decent ammount of artilery
Step 4. Buy more troop helicopers, maybe buy some chinooks from the US?
Step 5. Aquire heavy lifts for the air force
Step 6. Aquire troop transports for the navy
Step 7. Start saving money so that canada can upgrade to F-35s by 2020
Step 8. buy more ships for the navy. A few more subs can't hurt
Step 9. It would be nice if Canada reactivated the Airborne or started a Ranger division like the US. I would love tho see that.

Yeah that basically sums up my opinion, i'll probably be disproved within the hour, but what does everyone else think? BTW does anybody know the troop stength of ally and enemy nations? I know that China has an armed forces of about 1 million, wht about the US, UK, and other European nations? Anybody know where i can look that up?

 

[Britney Spears]

The mods should start using this picture more....

 

[Edward Campbell]

here is a thought or two I have today  on this matter

1) CDS goes to the  Minister of Defence ,  gets told the job they want him to do , CDS picks the units, the man power etc, goes back to the MofD says this  is what  we have for the mission and it costs X dollars. MofD pays X dollars ...

2) equipment matters,  CDS looks at requirements and what  is need now, what  is needed this year, and what  is needed in the future, gives list to MoD , MoD  instead of farming it out to various little companies to do the make work projects , he gets it attached to other NATO standing bids, who cares where the truck is made, if it can fit the bill, keep costs down, be on time with delivery dates,  spares parts are easy  to aquire,  it does not have to be made in Canada, or designed here. It just has to work here and work over seas. No more of taking it and redesigning it to fit Canadian content.

3) weapons & equipment .  airforce, navy  and army should have 3 lists : list  what  they  need right now to do a job, what  they  need to maintain what  they have, long term needs.  start replacing equipment before it is so old museums have the spare parts on display,  instead of buying 1500 new trucks in one year buy  the same number of trucks over 5 years so they  do not all wear out at same time.

4) Troop level,  Reg Force should have full size units,  a company, sqn, air wing, ships company, full size, put the man power where it is needed.Equip to full size units, no need to borrow or fake exercises, do not learn from driving a  truck with the wrod tank on the side and pretending it is a tank. Real equipment will train better soldiers. Res forces will always have a manning problem, solutions are many, but none will work with out laws in affect to protect jobs at home.

5) Money increase the budgets,  increase the budgets, and did I say  increase the budgets.  Spend money  now before we have to replace an entire navy or air force and replace all the equipment the army has. Increase pay  and benefits to keep the troops on the job. Provide better care for them at home so they want to stay  in and serve ...



I use the trucks thing as example, but i think most major purchases should be looked at way. every Nato nation is buying new equipment,  bulk orders do keep costs down.

There is only one thing wrong with your ideas, FormerHorseGuard: they fly in the face of about 500 years of parliamentary practice,  It is the job of the sovereign's civilian advisers (the Privy Council since before the time of Henry VIII, now the cabinet which is, officially, the Committee of the Queen's Privy Council) to defend the realm.  Amongst the things those privy councillors do is to hire sailors and soldiers (including admirals and generals) who will fight the battles the civilians on the Privy Councils decide need to be fought using the resources (money, ships, guns) which those same civilians decide are sufficient for the task.

The CDS is just that: the chief of staff to the commander in chief â “ her name is Adrienne Clarkson.  His job is to keep her armed forces in good order, etc and to manage purely military, operational matters.  The CDS is not responsible for defending Canada â “ not his job.  The CDS is not responsible for defence policy â “ not his job, either.  The CDS is not responsible for budgets or numbers of people or equipment â “ none of those are his job.  All those things are the business, the proper business, of the sovereign's ministers and the civil servants they hire to translate policy into programmes.  It doesn't have to be that way but whenever it isn't that way we refer to the government as an oligarchy or dictatorship or something like that.

I, personally, like your No 2; that's a good idea and, in my (considerable) experience you are spot on when you say: â ? who cares where the truck is made, if it can fit the bill, keep costs down, be on time with delivery dates,  spares parts are easy  to aquire,  it does not have to be made in Canada, or designed here. It just has to work here and work over seas. No more of taking it and redesigning it to fit Canadian content.â ?  That ought to be branded onto the forehead of every parliamentarian, every bureaucrat and every admiral and general, too. The problem is that most Canadians cannot understand that defence procurement is a 99.9% waste of resources â “ we hope* â “ and that the money which is, again and again and again, ad infinitum used to make the best Canadian product almost invariably buys an orphan which cannot be supported.

(By the way, I'm being a bit unfair to bureaucrats and generals â “ they know that allied procurement almost always buys perfectly good enough equipment at a modest price while Canadian procurement is, in 90+% of the cases, far too expensive and, too often, results in inferior equipment for a premium price.  The problem is that no one wants to tell Halifax shipyard workers to Québec aerospace workers that their government is going to spend billions and billions and every red cent is going off-shore.  We have become accustomed to the industrial benefits or offsets programmes which are, always, and I say this with 100% absolute certainty, a total a complete waste of every cent.  We never, ever, under any circumstances get something for nothing, we pay, usually at about 120% rate, for every benefit.  It is a scam, but it is a popular scam with politicians and crooked lobbyists both of whom are lying to an ill-informed populace for their own political or financial reasons.  Let me repeat that: every industrial offset programme is a waste, nothing is 'free' and most politicians and most lobbyist lie about it for their own benefit.  Canadians don't understand this because journalists are, as a group â “ stupid and lazy.  Working your way through procurement requires a very slight acquaintance with arithmetic â “ something which most journalist lack.  That's why they ended up ion journalism school â “ almost every other honours degree requires an elementary level of mathematics so that graduates can assess data, not journalism, it is 'home' for the innumerate.)

I can assure you that your No 3 was (and almost certainly still is) part of the process for the service chiefs in NDHQ.

No one disputes your 4 and 5, but see my opening shot â “ parliament, meaning the people of Canada, decides on how much, how many, how big (or small) and how good (or not so good).  Defence ranks, consistently, down with symphony orchestras and foreign aid when Canadians are asked about their tax/spend priorities.

</rant>  Sorry, FormerHorseGuard, I just hammered away at you because you provided an entrée.

----------

* Because we want forces which are ready, willing and able to go anywhere and fight we hope that their mere existence will deter attacks on Canada and that by cooperating with other, like minded democracies, we can keep te peace in the world by a combination of muscle and example.

 

[Gunner98]

CF-22 Raptor - What is your estimate of the total cost of this shopping list. " More Leopards" - we don't have any operational at the moment, do we?  Canada as a "neutral" country - interesting concept - I guess being a G-8/7, UN and NATO card carrying country might affected that status!

"Anybody know where I can look that up?"  Ever heard of Google? Or Wikipedia- it is an on-line, free encyclopedia - give it a try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China

YKH - I guess by cutting and pasting your statements and questions I misquoted you - 'splain how that happened.  I just re-read (I ask myself why?) your nausea about 20,000 troops total and not more.  I guess it was too late at night, not unlike your "original" post - 5 years too late.

I guess Rotos 2-4 are all anomalies.  I figured it was becoming the norm.

 

[KevinB]

OP ARCHER is set for a INF BN BattleGroup (1VP)

 

[paracowboy]

I guess Rotos 2-4 are all anomalies.   I figured it was becoming the norm.

nope. It was even stated when we started doing a half-assed job that we were only sending small numbers of bayonets to give the grunts a break, and let us train up some fresh meat.

CF-22 Raptor, I had actually typed out a long and drawn out response to your neutrality remark, but have distilled it to this:You really need a clue. However you couldn't get a clue during clue mating season, in a field full of horny clues, if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue-mating dance. What's next? Callin' me a peace-keeper?