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Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20090415%2fafghan_stones_090415

Ahhh, I'm trying to remind myself what positive affect we're having there.
 
Flawed Design said:
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20090415%2fafghan_stones_090415

Ahhh, I'm trying to remind myself what positive affect we're having there.

Yes, Flawed Design many Canadians are now feeling that way in the wake of two very different recent female deaths. Here's a piece by Canadian Muslim Irshad Manji, whose book, The Trouble With Islam, is a worthwhile read. Irshad has supported the mission but is losing hope.

Tribalism Triumphs in Afghanistan

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090413.wcoafghan14/BNStory/National

(Reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.)

IRSHAD MANJI
April 14, 2009

There was a time when I believed. With every fibre of my feminist Muslim being, I believed in our Afghanistan mission. No longer.

On Sunday, the Taliban assassinated another Afghan women's rights activist. It happened only days after the world learned of yet one more anti-female statute that Afghan President Hamid Karzai had signed into law. Critics accused him of caving in to warlords ahead of the coming elections. Only when Western voices amplified the protests of liberal Afghans did Mr. Karzai put the law "under review." Human-rights advocates called it a triumph.

The victory, such as it is, will be short-lived. I'm increasingly convinced that Afghanistan's problem lies deeper than a recalcitrant Taliban or a gutless central government. It's a problem so profound that for the first time I have to ask: Should our troops just get out?

Make no mistake, I'm a fighter to my fired-up core. Challenged about the West's presence in Afghanistan by numerous audiences, I've been crystal clear about why humanitarian intervention deserves support.

To my fellow progressives, I've argued that Afghans themselves say they need NATO troops. Shall I pretend that the locals suffer from "false consciousness?" That they don't know their lives the way I do? Doesn't such haughtiness replicate the imperialist approach in which a distant elite lords it over the people on the ground?

To pacifists, I've said that you can be anti-war and pro-intervention at the same time. Consider Swanee Hunt, a noted champion of non-violence.

Recently, she wrote about serving as America's ambassador in Vienna during the Bosnian war and "hearing horrifying reports from embassy personnel who were interviewing the refugees pouring into Austria. The responsibility was awesome. I couldn't sleep at night. I wondered if I should resign my position to protest the fact [that] my country was not intervening." Then-president Bill Clinton finally deployed NATO troops to stop the genocide. Meanwhile, Ms. Hunt points out, "200,000 people died needlessly."

To those who don't want our uniformed women and men dying, I've said that soldiers themselves know the hazards of their chosen occupation.

For the public to go limp when some of our own come home in coffins is to tell the Taliban that we stand for nothing. Translation: We'll fall for anything.

But now I must ask: Exactly what are our soldiers falling for? Shortly after Afghanistan held its first free election, Mr. Karzai faced an elemental test of democracy: defending freedom of worship for an Afghan convert to Christianity who found himself charged with apostasy. Mullahs called for his execution and judges obliged them — hardly surprising since the constitution of Afghanistan proclaims sharia law supreme.

What shook me is that Mr. Karzai didn't publicly question their retrograde interpretation of Islam. He needed only to quote from the Koran, which states "there is no compulsion in religion." Full stop.

Ditto for the 2008 death sentence given to a 23-year-old Afghan journalism student. He'd downloaded and distributed an Internet article criticizing how the Koran treats women. The mullahs got their day in court. The student didn't even get a lawyer. He's still alive - in jail.

Since then, the suave and sophisticated Mr. Karzai has stayed mute about several more penalties inflicted in the name of tribal honour, from widespread gang rapes of women to acid attacks on schoolgirls.

Why would a president, routinely described as a "moderate," hand so much power to feudal warlords? Geopolitical strategists tell me it's because Mr. Karzai has to avoid carnage at all costs. But does violating innocents to pre-empt further violence makes sense?

Sadly, yes, and not just because the strategists say so. Culture is among the most obstinate forces anywhere. In societies influenced by Arab culture, a massive motivator of action is asabiyya or tribal solidarity.

This analysis originated with the Muslim intellectual Ibn Khaldun, sometimes known as the father of modern sociology. He studied how Muslim peoples evolve, especially in environments that are arid, remote, or, in the case of Afghanistan, mountainous. Where the land is harsh, there's virtually no division of labour. Human survival depends on bonds of kinship, and those bonds can easily degenerate into feelings of group superiority.

Now what happens when tribes compete for superiority? You get a cycle of vendetta and countervendetta. In the end, warlords could be more legitimate than any democratically elected parliament - more legitimate because they're more authentic to the Afghan experience.

No wonder a moderate president serially submits to thugs. No wonder military might has been a feeble backwater to the tide of history. No wonder I've got a sinking feeling that our troops can't adequately help the good people of Afghanistan.

Soldiers can restore stability, but when stability means cyclical violence, I'm at a loss for what it means to win.


 
I must say some days I ask "why?". But when I see 17 year old women being beaten for ANYTHING it makes my blood boil. Any man that does that is a coward, and that includes any North American male as well. I don't discriminate when it comes to the beating of women. :rage:
I realize that this is a personal view, and I know not everyone shares it. If you don't like it....tough.
 
OldSolduer said:
I must say some days I ask "why?". But when I see 17 year old women being beaten for ANYTHING it makes my blood boil. Any man that does that is a coward, and that includes any North American male as well. I don't discriminate when it comes to the beating of women. :rage:
I realize that this is a personal view, and I know not everyone shares it. If you don't like it....tough.

OldSolduer, good points and reminders of why we're there. I support the mission but lately the news from Afghanistan is dispiriting to say the least.

God Bless those who served ... continue to serve.  :cdn:
 
CF to "clear and hold" near Kandahar--trying really to make a difference in the life of some Afghans (usual copyright disclaimer):

Town by town: A new strategy in Afghanistan
Deh-E-Bagh is Ground Zero for an Afghan-Canadian approach against the Taliban, reports Matthew Fisher.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Town+town+strategy+Afghanistan/1500565/story.html

A town south of Kandahar City is to become the focus of intense attention as part of a new Afghan-Canadian strategy to try to defeat the Taliban insurgency town by town.

The innovative approach is to start in the town of Deh-E-Bagh in Dand district, where the Taliban recently launched a major attack [it should be noted that in July 2007 the area was considered secure].
http://www.afghanistan.gc.ca/canada-afghanistan/stories-reportages/kprt-eprk_2007_07_22.aspx?lang=eng
Afghan-led, it's to involve targeted Canadian aid, technical assistance, and mentoring within a robust security bubble established by Afghan and Canadian forces [official story here].
http://www.afghanistan.gc.ca/canada-afghanistan/stories-reportages/dand.aspx

"We want this to be absolutely tangible to the 800 or 1,000 people in that community," said Brig.-Gen. Jon Vance, who commands Canadian troops in Afghanistan. "We develop the district in governance and (reconstruction and development), and re-establish the social, political and economic fabric of a town in a district, and then another town, and another and another."

Kandahar's governor, Tooryalai Wesa, chose to begin in Deh-E-Bagh after consultations with his government and conferring closely with Canadian officials about making "a commitment to a defined community," Vance said. The pilot project, also discussed with Ken Lewis, Canada's top diplomat in the south, will involve all levels of the Afghan government and Canada's joint military/civilian provincial reconstruction team (PRT), which draws on experts from several federal departments and receives much of its funding through the Canadian International Development Agency.

While Canada's area of military responsibility in Kandahar is to be split in half when a U.S. army Stryker brigade arrives this summer, the Canadian PRT, based in Kandahar City, is to retain primacy for economic development across the entire province.
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-and-kandahar-prt-and-kandahar.html

Many of the initiatives to be started in Deh-E-Bagh are expected to fit within five of Canada's six stated priorities in Afghanistan:
http://www.afghanistan.gc.ca/canada-afghanistan/priorities-priorites/index.aspx?menu_id=15&menu=L
mentoring security forces, basic services, humanitarian services, democratic development and political reconciliation.

The sixth priority is border security, but the town is 80 kilometres west of Pakistan.

"We did some analysis to make sure about tribal sensitivities, where the insurgency is, and the doability of it," Vance said. "It is a whole of government joint view that this is the town that meets the criteria."

Individual projects will be determined and prioritized by district leaders and village "malaks," and will employ large numbers of locals.

The Taliban are still hugely unpopular across most of Afghanistan, a recent ABC/BBC poll found, but 64 per cent of those who responded in their traditional stronghold of Kandahar reported some support for the insurgents there, up from 41 per cent last year. If the new strategy succeeds, it will create safe havens where Afghans can thrive without living in fear of militants, thus setting a positive example for other towns.

The Afghan-Canadian initiative bears some resemblance to the "hearts and minds" strategy the U.S. pursued in selected villages and hamlets during the Vietnam War [a bit gratuitous to raise the Vietnam bogey, Mr Fisher]. Where this approach differs significantly is that Afghans will be in charge, and there will be much more civilian involvement

"It is not delivering a bunch of stuff," Vance said. "They (Afghans) are going to be in the lead and work for it [emphasis added]. The level of aspiration is limitless. These are the first steps."

The project, to be expanded over time to include more communities across Kandahar province [emphasis added, is designed to show Afghans what they can do for themselves in a secure environment and to push out the insurgents who threaten the communities and use them as bases of operations.

"It was decided to concentrate on a small community, rather than at the district or provincial level, because "you can pour in things at the provincial and district level, but it does not trickle down to the people as fast (as we would like)," Vance said.

"What needs to be done in a town, who does it and how ... that will be determined over the next month and a half or so. There is a lot of analysis going on. It is a very complex operation.... Timing and the scheme of manoeuvre is still up in the air."

Mark
Ottawa
 
To boil an extremely complex situation down to a couple lines, I simply don't believe the majority of Afghans are ready to exchange their way of life for a western-style democracy. Everyone on this board is quite aware of the intolerable situation many Afghans, women especially, live and die with on a daily basis, and it is difficult to stand by and want to anything but get involved and try to change things.

I just don't think democracy and freedom can take root until a country's people demand them. Until they do that, nothing the West can do will change the big picture in Afghanistan. We can keep the lion's share of terrorism busy away from our own borders, we can build schools and hospitals until the cows come home, but in it's current form, I categorically believe that the "War on Terror" is a battle we cannot win.

If there is any ray of light, it comes from spreading the opportunity for education to as many Afghans as possible. I am an equally firm believer that Education is the silver bullet, that in the long term it is the solution to more or less every problem in the world today. I also think the Taliban know this. Those poor little girls who were attacked with acid would seem to indicate that they do, anyway.

For the record, when I read that in the paper was the moment I decided the infantry was my path.
 
starseed said:
To boil an extremely complex situation down to a couple lines, I simply don't believe the majority of Afghans are ready to exchange their way of life for a western-style democracy. Everyone on this board is quite aware of the intolerable situation many Afghans, women especially, live and die with on a daily basis, and it is difficult to stand by and want to anything but get involved and try to change things.

I just don't think democracy and freedom can take root until a country's people demand them. Until they do that, nothing the West can do will change the big picture in Afghanistan. We can keep the lion's share of terrorism busy away from our own borders, we can build schools and hospitals until the cows come home, but in it's current form, I categorically believe that the "War on Terror" is a battle we cannot win.

If there is any ray of light, it comes from spreading the opportunity for education to as many Afghans as possible. I am an equally firm believer that Education is the silver bullet, that in the long term it is the solution to more or less every problem in the world today. I also think the Taliban know this. Those poor little girls who were attacked with acid would seem to indicate that they do, anyway.

For the record, when I read that in the paper was the moment I decided the infantry was my path.

You are quite correct....education is the key. How long will it take? Generations...

While I'm here, I find it amazing that Canadians, North Americans and Europeans will tolerate the intolerance displayed by some of the more radical members of Islam, who will tolerate nothing less than total submission to their interpretation of their religion.
But we CAN'T shove our way of life down their throats, can we? :rage:
 
A post at The Canada-Afghanistan Blog:

Defying A Threatening Crowd
http://canada-afghanistan.blogspot.com/2009/04/defying-threatening-crowd.html

Afghan women fight back...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Terry Glavin, a principled supporter of the Afghan mission, wins an award:

I Vow To Resist The Urge To Cash The Cheque And Head Straight For The Track
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2009/04/i-vow-to-resist-urge-to-cash-cheque-and.html

As for Afstan, some samples of Mr Glavin's views:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/10/mayhem-on-froshgah-street-more.html
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/11/riding-with-mad-max-across-kandahar.html
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2009/03/all-news-that-fits-what-we-want-you-to.html
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2009/03/misjudgment-of-historic-proportions-ii.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Two Torch based on stories by Matthew Fisher of Canwest News, who is making a real effort to report the Afghan war more broadly than most of our journalists:

NATO air buildup (read mainly US), esp. helicopters, in Afstan
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/nato-air-buildup-read-mainly-us-esp.html

"Afghanistan isn't just Canada's war"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/afghanistan-isnt-just-canadas-war.html

As far as I can see neither story was carried by the Ottawa Citizen or Montreal Gazette, which use Canwest News. Pity.

Mark
Ottawa
 
leroi said:
Here's another myth that I've heard a lot: "the people of Afghanistan don't want us (Canada as military/as aid/ as whatever) there. "

This is the one thing I never know what to think about when I ponder the Afghan mission. Not having been there (yet, that is) I have no first hand experience to draw on. Everything I know about the history of conflict in Afghanistan tells me that they despise foreign interference, yet every soldier who has been there (whose opinion I have heard/read, anyway) has said that the vast majority of Afghans welcome their presence.

I suppose I'll find out for myself soon enough, but I'd love to hear from anyone who can speak with authority on the subject. Are Afghans actually happy that we removed their government and are trying to democratize and educate their country? Or are they simply less unhappy with us than they were under the Taleban? Or some variation thereof, if applicable.
 
starseed said:
This is the one thing I never know what to think about when I ponder the Afghan mission. Not having been there (yet, that is) I have no first hand experience to draw on. Everything I know about the history of conflict in Afghanistan tells me that they despise foreign interference, yet every soldier who has been there (whose opinion I have heard/read, anyway) has said that the vast majority of Afghans welcome their presence.

I suppose I'll find out for myself soon enough, but I'd love to hear from anyone who can speak with authority on the subject. Are Afghans actually happy that we removed their government and are trying to democratize and educate their country? Or are they simply less unhappy with us than they were under the Taleban? Or some variation thereof, if applicable.

I find your comment about us having "removed their government and are trying to democratize and educate their country".  Your perception of history seems just a little out of wack.  You make it sound so sinister.  Could you explain also how we assisted them to install their government.  We are indeed educating the people, but we are not going so far as to democratize their nation, although we would like to encourage them to do so.  We do realize that they are a completely different culture than us in the West, and will develop their own form of Government, hopefully along some lines resembling a Democratic State.  We, however, are not forcing them.  We are trying to provide them the SECURITY with which to govern and defend themselves and create stability in the Region. 
 
starseed said:
This is the one thing I never know what to think about when I ponder the Afghan mission. Not having been there (yet, that is) I have no first hand experience to draw on. Everything I know about the history of conflict in Afghanistan tells me that they despise foreign interference, yet every soldier who has been there (whose opinion I have heard/read, anyway) has said that the vast majority of Afghans welcome their presence.

I suppose I'll find out for myself soon enough, but I'd love to hear from anyone who can speak with authority on the subject. Are Afghans actually happy that we removed their government and are trying to democratize and educate their country? Or are they simply less unhappy with us than they were under the Taleban? Or some variation thereof, if applicable.

The "government" of Afghanistan prior to 2002 was the Taliban....Not only did they beat people in public, they executed them in soccer stadiums. The destroyed everything that was not in accordance with their very twisted view of their religion.
 
Dude, are you for real?

Sit down, read about the Taliban rule, the UN mandate and the mission from 2002 to today. Sit down and TALK to vets that have been there...and not someone who sat behind a desk either. The troops that talked to locals and engaged the Taliban. Keep yourself in "receive" mode, not in "send" mode.

It is clear that you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about and if you are trying to get in and go a tour there, you are going to have your perception of this conflict be turned upside down.

Regards
 
Hitting the Taliban for six (with apologies to Monty)
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_el_alamein.htm
--a post at The Torch:

Afghan cricket: Good news and bad (sort of) news
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/afghan-cricket-good-news-and-bad-sort.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Matthew Fisher of Canwest News continues his good reporting, turning his attention to the effects of the US Army surge at Kandahar (usual copyright disclaimer):

Canadian, U.S. brass prepare for Afghan changeover
http://www.canada.com/news/Canadian+brass+prepare+Afghan+changeover/1515578/story.html

KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, Afghanistan — With thousands of U.S. troops descending on Kandahar, Canadian and American diplomats, development experts and soldiers are involved in scores of meetings to try to ensure that the marriage of American and Canadian military and civil operations in the war-plagued province is successful.

"There is a lot going on," confirmed Ken Lewis, Canada's top diplomat in southern Afghanistan. "A big part of the laydown is being co-ordinated through their (U.S.) very big embassy in Kabul. We are meeting with them and with their embassy with followup meetings at KAF (Kandahar Airfield) and the PRT (provincial reconstruction team)."

Other meetings have taken place in London and at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Lewis said.

The plan is for American forces, ordered to Afghanistan by U.S. President Barack Obama, to take over military responsibility from overstretched Canadian troops in an arc from northwestern Kandahar to southeastern Kandahar. Canadian forces will remain in charge of Kandahar City and its Taliban-infested western approaches [including Arghandab?] and, as crucially, will retain the lead role for all governance issues and economic development activities for the entire province [emphasis added].

Similar plans are in place for neighbouring Helmand, where British forces are turning over the southern half of the province to U.S. Marines [emphasis added], while retaining primacy for governance and economic development everywhere.

"The mood is very collaborative," Lewis said. "So far, we are in the initial stages. We are still discussing back at headquarters (Ottawa) and with the (State) Department in Washington who is coming and what positions to fill."

The growing U.S. presence has already been felt at the Canadian army headquarters at Kandahar Airfield. A steady flow of U.S. army officers and senior NCOs have been discussing with their Canadian counterparts how they will work together. Among the recent visitors have been the top commanders of the Stryker Brigade from Fort Lewis, Wash., which is to be based in Kandahar, beginning this summer.

But the two armies are used to working together. A greater challenge may be to achieve the same level of co-ordination between the U.S. State Department and USAID officials and representatives of Canada's foreign affairs ministry and its CIDA branch.

"Having a province-wide representation with a U.S. influence, you really need close co-operation and synchronization of all activities," said Lt.-Col. Carl Turenne, the Franco-Manitoban who leads the PRT, where 360 soldiers work alongside 60 men and women from other branches of the Canadian government.

"We welcome the American surge," said Rhonda Gossen, Canada's deputy director of development, and a former CIDA official in Africa and Asia.

Brig.-Gen. John Nicholson, the top American soldier in the south understands development and how critical it is to achieving the end state of peace and security, she said.

"It is important to engage with Afghans at all levels, especially the provincial level — and that there is an Afghan face on everything. Nicholson understands the basis of that."

Canada spent nearly $350 million on aid and reconstruction in Afghanistan during the last fiscal year, according to figures supplied by Foreign Affairs. Much of that money was spent in Kandahar.

"To have that much money flowing into one province, for us, that is very big," Gossen said. "Such a figure might usually be for an entire country.

"We are certainly addressing the most difficult part of the country and, from the development perspective, the poorest. So, this is where we should be."

As well as working closely with the U.S. military and the State Department, Canada's military and civilian representatives are co-ordinating strategies with the United Nations, Afghan line ministries and local non-governmental organizations.

"How many organizations are involved in this? I wouldn't even guess. It's mind-boggling," said Turenne, the PRT head.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Toronto Star puff piece, disguised as news (usual copyright disclaimer}:

Ignatieff invited to exclusive Afghanistan meeting
Will attend U.S. talks as human rights expert

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/622235

Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff is off to Washington to take part in an exclusive and high-level discussion on the future of Afghanistan, the Toronto Star has learned.

Ignatieff will join Richard Holbrooke, the U.S. special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, and other diplomats and security experts at a closed-door, invitation-only meeting tomorrow looking at stabilizing the region through measures such as negotiating peace with the Taliban, reining in Pakistan, shutting down rampant drug production and closer co-operation with Russia, Iran and other neighbouring states.

The Liberal leader is participating as an international human rights expert, said Jill Fairbrother, his spokesperson. But he feels compelled to attend this event in particular because of what he perceives as the absence of the Conservative government in the debate about the future of the country.

"(He's attending) this one because he has something to say and the Canadian government hasn't been participating in this dialogue with the U.S., and he believes we should be," Fairbrother said.

The Harper government has drawn criticism in many quarters for refusing to follow the U.S. lead and name a special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan to better co-ordinate the future of the Afghan mission.

Britain, France and Italy did name an equivalent to Holbrooke, in part to have someone who could discuss the complex issues facing the mission at the highest level. The French defence minister said doing so also gave France more clout in Afghanistan.

"(Ignatieff) believes that we've played a major role in that mission and should have a voice at the table, so he's going to participate in the discussion," Fairbrother said.

Ignatieff flew into Kabul in 1997 on one of the first flights after the Taliban took power.

He has since penned magazine articles about how governments can deal with a group that cares nothing for human rights or its international reputation.

He has also written scholarly articles on applying humanitarian law in Afghanistan and building a viable state.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Torch post (note the USAF UAVs at KAF):

Afstan: Stories you'll not see in the Canadian media
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/afstan-stories-youll-not-see-in.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Another at The Torch:

Afstan: Roads, dear boy, roads
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Torch post:

Shia leaders in Afstan (and women)
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/shia-leaders-in-afstan-and-women.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
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