Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

[mover1]

Found this link...don't know if it belongs on here. You can move it to another topic if need be.


http://englishrussia.com/?p=1778

how thngs change and how they stay the same

 

[MarkOttawa]

A post at Daimnation!:

Taliban Sharia law in action: where's the Canadian outrage?
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/012950.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Two Torch posts:

Kandahar: Putting the best face on the coming realities
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/kanahar-putting-best-face-on-coming.html

"Europe praises Obama, pledges few Afghan troops"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/europe-praises-obama-pledges-few-afghan.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Most Euro governments and people are not enthusiastic about Afghan combat; a Washington Post reporter is surprised to find this enthusiasm:

Some Troops Embrace Afghan War
Ties to 9/11 Build Enthusiasm for the Fight, but Deployments Have Taken a Toll
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/04/AR2009040402862.html

FORT BRAGG, N.C. -- As the fight in Afghanistan transforms from a "forgotten war" to the U.S. military's top priority -- with tens of thousands of soldiers and Marines headed there this year -- overstretched ground troops are voicing unexpected enthusiasm about the new mission.

Afghanistan represents for some service members a far more palatable war than Iraq, one that enjoys more support among Americans because of its strong ties to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. "It's the just war," said an Army officer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record, and who has deployed several times to Afghanistan and Iraq. "People are more positive about it."

Long overshadowed as an "economy of force" effort, the Afghanistan war is gaining the attention it deserves, according to interviews with senior Army and Marine Corps leaders, midlevel officers and rank-and-file troops.

"For many of us serving there . . . as the sideshow for Iraq, we felt we were the other war and couldn't understand why," said Craig Mullaney, a former Army captain who served in Afghanistan and later advised the Obama campaign on that war. "I think a lot of us are encouraged by reallocating resources to Afghanistan."

For soldiers and Marines drawn to combat, Afghanistan is also viewed as the more challenging and sought-after duty as insurgents heighten fighting in the rugged terrain, according to several officers.

Marine Corps leaders and troops have long advocated shifting their mission from Iraq's Anbar province to Afghanistan [see this from August 2008].
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/08/top-marine-wants-to-shift-troops-from.html
"The ones in Iraq are saying, 'Hey sir, when are we going to Afghanistan?' " said Lt. Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., Marine Corps deputy commandant for operations...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Obama does want to defeat some Taliban, Mr Walkom--and Mr Harper.  A letter of mine in the Toronto Star‏:
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/614121

Apr 06, 2009 04:30 AM

Re: Obama's Afghan quagmire, April 4
http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/613536
...
Thomas Walkom writes, "Like Harper these days, Obama carefully does not talk of defeating the Taliban." Not quite. This is what he said in a March 27 speech:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-a-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/
"There is an uncompromising core of the Taliban. They must be met with force, and they must be defeated." If only the prime minister would make that point to the Canadian people.

Mark Collins, Ottawa

Mr Harper unfortunately does seem to lean towards the Walkom misrepresentation of the president's policy. This is what the prime minister said on March 29:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/03/29/transcript-sheldon-alberts-interviews-prime-minister-stephen-harper.aspx

...You may notice the (Obama) administration is much more clear on eliminating al-Qaida than eliminating the Taliban...

Oh dear, dear, dear.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

From a Torch post (maps mentioned also at post):

NATO "Afghanistan Report 2009"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/nato-afghanistan-report-2009.html

This document (pdf)
http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2009_03/20090331_090331_afghanistan_report_2009.pdf
is from NATO's Public Diplomacy Division, released March 31. Though in a sense clearly spin, it's a spin to which the Canadian public rarely have in-depth access. Take a look for yourself. These maps are particularly useful:

CURRENT FORCE DISPOSITION (p. 6)

SECURITY SUMMARY (p. 9) shows where incidents are concentrated, a great number in the general area of the Ring Road,
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/securing-main-road-in-afstan.html
from Kabul to Kandahar and on west in the direction of Herat. It is in that area that most large ISAF operations, battalion upwards, have taken place. Decent security along the road itself is very important psychologically for the Afghans.

I found the box (p. 7) on US Marine 2008 operations in Garmsir District, far south Helmand, interesting...

As for the future, some views from someone knowledgeable. Security is the most urgent task, governance the most important. As things stand at this moment we are far from a tipping point in NATO's favour; if major results are not achieved by the end of this year the mission will essentially have failed. Some indicators:

-terrorist incidents in provincial capitals must be almost eliminated;
-capitals of critical districts must not be taken by the insurgents, if only briefly;
-improving major road security is critical.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

A post by Damian Brooks at The Torch, with video:

Waging Peace: Canada In Afghanistan
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/waging-peace-canada-in-afghanistan.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Three Torch posts about Canada's wide-ranging mission:

An Ottawa police officer in Kandahar
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/ottawa-police-officer-in-kandahar.html

A Canadian Army officer and the faithful at prayer at KAF
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/kaf-canadian-army-officer-and-faithful.html

A Canadian general getting out the message from Kabul (but note the rather depressing bit at the end of this post)
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/canadian-general-getting-out-message.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[OldSolduer]

"...while the fight to help Afghans help themselves rages on under extreme circumstances, it now appears the battle for Canadian hearts and minds supporting the mission has been lost."

I find it incredible that Canadians are willing to accept the subjugation of women, intolerance, thuggery and murder. We are reaping the seeds that were sown in the late 60's. Is this what we have become? 

 

[George Wallace]

I find it incredible that Canadians are willing to accept the subjugation of women, intolerance, thuggery and murder. We are reaping the seeds that were sown in the late 60's. Is this what we have become? 

Since the end of the Second World War, the Canadian Public has never really been concerned with anything that isn't happening in their own "back yard", and even then they are fairly apathetic. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Since the end of the Second World War, the Canadian Public has never really been concerned with anything that isn't happening in their own "back yard", and even then they are fairly apathetic. 

I may be tilting a lance at windmills. But I shall NOT stop trying to educate Canadians to the fact that many of these "cultures" are not acceptable, ever. The excuse "we can't shove our culture down their throats" is NOT ACCEPTABLE when to comes to murder, thuggery and intolerance of others. THAT is a COP OUT and is NOT what we should stand for.
My hat is off the the Premier of Ontario for refusing to allow Sharia law in Ontario.

 

[leroi]

I may be tilting a lance at windmills. But I shall NOT stop trying to educate Canadians to the fact that many of these "cultures" are not acceptable, ever. The excuse "we can't shove our culture down their throats" is NOT ACCEPTABLE when to comes to murder, thuggery and intolerance of others. THAT is a COP OUT and is NOT what we should stand for.
My hat is off the the Premier of Ontario for refusing to allow Sharia law in Ontario.

OldSolduer,

Here is an audio podcast of Sally Armstrong speaking about the improvement in the quality of life for women in Afghanistan. The intro is boring; Sally is funny, though, she calls the Taliban "dumb as doorknobs" at one point. She is totally against the cultural relativist argument and she won't give up on Afghanistan either:

From March 2009

(Sally starts speaking at about 2:40 lapsed time)

http://www.uoguelph.ca/podcast/

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I may be tilting a lance at windmills. But I shall NOT stop trying to educate Canadians to the fact that many of these "cultures" are not acceptable, ever. The excuse "we can't shove our culture down their throats" is NOT ACCEPTABLE when to comes to murder, thuggery and intolerance of others. THAT is a COP OUT and is NOT what we should stand for.

How do you mean?  Have you seen what passes for a legal system in Canada?  If I was a space alien observing us, I'd think that we celebrate thugs, murderers and intolerant people.  With respect to sentencing, virtually NOTHING is against the law here.  So who are we to say that some other sovereign nation can't say and do what it wants?  Yes, this new law appears to be a rape green light, but who are we to say how it will actually be interpreted and applied?  The culture over there is very different and rare is the western person who I have come across who fully "gets it".  Not saying it's right, and not really interested in getting into some huge debate when somebody suggests that I support sexual assaults.  That isn't what I'm getting at.  I'm just saying they really have a very different way of looking at life than we do.  Through their filters, the law may not seem as horrifying as we are seeing it. 
In any case, we don't hold them to any standard of conduct whatsoever, so I don't see it happening all of a sudden now. 

My hat is off the the Premier of Ontario for refusing to allow Sharia law in Ontario.

Not supporting a dual path of laws isn't exactly political derring-do.  The idea was patently idiotic (although if it could happen anywhere, it would be Ontario or BC)

 

[George Wallace]

I may reiterate what has already been posted and mentioned in many discussions on the "Rape clause", and that is that it existed here in Canada, in our Laws, up to approx ten years ago.  So that only puts "us" ten years ahead of the Afghan legislators. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Gee Whiz! Canadian Sea King "battle taxis" at KAF!  Ace reporter Jessica Leeder of the Globe and Mail
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-was-that-i-was-saying-about-biases.html
returns to Afstan, still showing important gaps in knowledge:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090413.WBafghanistanblog20090413115308/WBStory/WBafghanistanblog/

...Before the Canadian Chinook helicopters arrived a few months ago, our only means of travelling off base was the heavily reinforced armoured vehicles that convoy over IED-prone roadways to rural outposts. The threat of an IED strike could delay our travel for hours or days, placing another layer of strain on us, and of course, our soldiers.

Now, for the most part, our new battle taxis are Sea Kings and Chinooks! It's far from a perfect world. But things are literally looking up.

Somehow I suspect Ms. Leader in unaware of the real Sea King "battle taxis" in Afstan, Royal Navy Commando Helicopter Force Sea Kings from 845 and 846 Naval Air Squadrons:
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-events/operations-in-afghanistan/photo-gallery/*/changeNav/00h00200p001/imageIndex/36/
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-events/operations-in-afghanistan/royal-navy-units-in-afghanistan/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Greymatters]

Now that she has squandered an entire page talking about how the changes will affect her personal life, perhaps she can start to focus on real stories that people actually want to read about...?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Another Torch post, with a bite:

Afstan: "On That Law"--and some things personal
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/afstan-on-that-law.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

The conclusion of an article by a former British commander at Helmand:

The best way to beat the Taliban
Military force alone won't bring peace to Afghanistan. The West must get the local economy into shape, says Ed Butler.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5149315/The-best-way-to-beat-the-Taliban.html

...
My concern is that time – and popular support – for this misunderstood campaign may well run out before there is tangible success. Just as the Stinger missile did for the Soviets, so the suicide bomber may do for Nato. Furthermore, as a senior government official once said: "We may have the clocks, but they have the time."

Of even more significance, however, is the new US administration's overt recognition that this is now a regional problem, not just an Afghan one. At the tactical level, the British government would do better to focus its resources and mindset not just on "Helmandshire" [see "Ending the Fractured Approach" around middle here],
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/03/us-really-starting-to-shape-things-in.html
where our troops operate, but on all of Afghanistan. Such a change of approach could consider putting all British forces and assets under the full operational command of the Americans [emphasis added]; this would go a long way towards providing the desperately needed unity of command and single plan that are so patently absent in the current Nato operation.

The message to the elders of Garmsir [see end of this post for US Marine operations there last year],
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/04/nato-afghanistan-report-2009.html
and the rest of Afghanistan, must be clear: we are here as long as it takes to make life better than it is now, in terms of security, governance and welfare. The Afghanistan of tomorrow will not look like a Western democracy, with Western values and standards; nor can it again become a haven for Islamist jihadists [emphasis added]. A pragmatic start to the new Obama-led strategy would be to ask the ordinary Afghans what they want, where they want to go and at what speed and cost. The big question is: does President Karzai, or even his people, know?

Brigadier Ed Butler was commander of British forces in Helmand [in 2006]...

A view from Kabul:

Afghan women want West to ease 'rape law' stance
Return to extremist rule bigger fear than effects of proposed legislation
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Afghan+women+want+West+ease+rape+stance/1493424/story.html

As Afghanistan's Parliament debated ways Monday to protect female politicians from assassination, young women attending Kabul University expressed surprise and bewilderment at the debate raging in Canada and Europe over a proposed law that seems to allow men from the Shiite Hazara minority to sexually enslave their wives and imprison them in their homes.

The nearly unanimous view on the campus -- arguably the most progressive institution in Afghanistan -- was that the West should not involve itself in the country's cultural and religious affairs...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kat Stevens]

Quote

    As Afghanistan's Parliament debated ways Monday to protect female politicians from assassination, young women attending Kabul University expressed surprise and bewilderment at the debate raging in Canada and Europe over a proposed law that seems to allow men from the Shiite Hazara minority to sexually enslave their wives and imprison them in their homes.

    The nearly unanimous view on the campus -- arguably the most progressive institution in Afghanistan -- was that the West should not involve itself in the country's cultural and religious affairs...



There you have it, I guess... time to fold the tents, fill in the shitters and call ENDEX

 

[MarkOttawa]

Well, will we know turn our moral outrage to Pakistan where things are even more advanced, Sharia-wise?

Pakistan president signs off on Islamic law deal
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6VD6wVTmAD97HPDKO0

Pakistan's pro-U.S. president signed a regulation late Monday to put a northwestern district under Islamic law as part of a peace deal with the Taliban, going along after coming under intense pressure from members of his own party and other lawmakers.

Asif Ali Zardari's signature was a boon for Islamic militants who have brutalized the Swat Valley for nearly two years in demanding a new justice system. It was sure to further anger human rights activists and feed fears among the U.S. and other Western allies that the valley will turn into a sanctuary for militants close to Afghanistan.

Whatever criticism may come, Zardari can claim some political cover — the National Assembly voted unanimously Monday [April 13] to adopt a resolution urging his signature, although at least one party boycotted. Earlier, a Taliban spokesman had warned lawmakers against opposing the deal.

Zardari's spokeswoman, Farahnaz Ispahani, confirmed the president signed the regulation Monday night.

His signing implemented a deal agreed to in February by provincial officials to impose Islamic law in the Swat Valley and surrounding areas in exchange for a cease-fire between security forces and the local Taliban...

As for what Sharia law means in Swat:

Video of Taliban Flogging Rattles Pakistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/world/asia/04swat.html?ref=todayspaper

The video shows a young woman held face down as a Taliban commander whips her repeatedly with a leather strap. “Leave me for the moment — you can beat me again later,” she screams, pleading for a reprieve and writhing in pain.

Paying no heed, the commander orders those holding her to tighten their grip and continues the public flogging. A large group of men quietly stands and watches in a circle around her.

The woman in the video is a 17-year-old resident of Kabal, in the restive Swat region in northwestern Pakistan. The images, which have been broadcast repeatedly by private television news networks in Pakistan, have caused outrage here and set off bitter condemnation by rights activists and politicians.

They have also raised questions once again about the government’s decision to enter into a peace deal in February that effectively ceded Swat to the Taliban and allowed them to impose Islamic law.

The two-minute video is the first known case of a public flogging of a woman in Swat. Apparently shot on a cellphone and widely circulated in the picturesque valley, it demonstrates vividly how the Taliban have used public displays of punishment to terrify and control the local population.

It was not clear what the young woman was accused of...

Mark
Ottawa